Thank god Milne did not get sacked

[barks4eva]

I think I may have given you too much credit. I thought you were to be applauded for your blind support of the coach - but it sounds like you've based your support on a comment from a player in the media!!

Oh dear.

There are a million reasons dodgy, it surprises me not, being as simple as you are, you wouldn't get a drum even with a brass band up you!

[SaintWodonga]

I am sure GT's real name is Wayne Kerr!

[Con Gorozidis]

The guy is fast entering the realm of nuffy-dom and has become the daryl somers of the AFL.

hahaha. love it. great call! perfectly spoke!

[saintly]

Congratulations on your blind faith. You should be commended for it.

Blind faith has nothing to do with it, I said all along from 2005, get a real coach and we'll win a premiership!

Ross Lyon is a football genius, opinion based on observation not blind faith!

will you still be saying it if (god forbid we went out in straights sets?) just want to know where you stand.

what will you say about the coach then?

[meher baba]

It strikes me that B4E is not alone on this forum in fervently espousing two seemingly irreconcilable propositions.

(a) GT ruined our list and we were "in decline" in 2006.

(b) The club was destined for a flag if we could only get ourselves a decent coach.

i cannot accept the idea that these two propositions could possibly both be true in the same rational universe.

Let's put emotive words like 'ruined' and 'destined' to one side for a moment....

If you cant concede we missed a chance for a flag in 2004 and 2005, and we were in decline in 2006 then you're not being fair dinkum.

I really should stop, but you appear to have invited me to restate my version of the history of the last few years.....

I don't think we seriously missed out in 2004: we were just not quite good enough. We had our best team on the park against both the Lions and Port in the finals games we lost to them, and we lost both games (being spanked by the Lions). And we struggled to beat the Swans on a ground and in weather conditions that should have favoured us.

In 2005 we were the best team in the comp IMO. Fully fit, we would have put away the Swans in the PF and would have outscored the wayward Eagles in the GF. Injuries got us: and not injuries caused by poor conditioning and hamstring management, but sheer bloody unlucky ones to in-form players like Kosi and Chips.

In 2006, we were still the best team in the comp IMO. After a slow start, we were warming up towards good form when we lost (a) Hamill (perrmanently as it turned out) and (b) Lenny. And then Kosi was taken out as well. None of these injuries had anything to do with conditioning or hamstring management: Hamill's was caused by an act of sheer bloody stupidity, Lenny's could happen to any player in any game, and Kosi's resulted from an unpunished mongrel act by an opposing player.

Nevertheless we battled on and missed the top 4 by a whisker (aka a Sirengate). Our injury problems overcame us in the Elimination Final and out we went in an inglorious (indeed, embarrassing) way, presumably neutralising any serious opposition on the Board to Butterss's longstanding, meglomania-induced plan to sack GT. with the assistance of Archie "Macbeth" Fraser.

We then got Lyon, who was (as we now know) a highly promising and talented coach but a total novice at that level who spent the best part of 18 months running our star players around in circles until he got a feel for the controls of the spaceship.

The situation wasn't helped by leadership at board level that was "away with the pixies" (that's the nicest way I can think of putting it) and continued to refuse to invest properly in onfield development. Also, Lyon brought with him three relatively inexperienced assistants who, like him, had had no prior connection with the club and its players and of whom at least one (Barker), seems to have been of questionable ability.

All of these problems have now been overcome and we are once again, as we were in 2005-06 IMO, the most talented and dangerous club in the AFL.

Does the transition from GT to Lyon represent an urgent action to prevent an otherwise disastrous decline? Personally, I think this view is nonsense.

I think Butterss (believe it or not) was closer to the truth in 2006 when he stated something along the lines of "GT was great at getting us to a certain point, but we need somebody else to take us to the next level". He was, of course, just being nice about it (I'm sure his real thoughts about GT were much more negative).

But GT did do a good job to motivate us and get us from the cellar to a point where (for the first time in decades) other clubs were genuinely scared of getting a pasting when they ran out to play us (I reckon that, even in the Lockett-Loewe-Winmar-Burke-Harvey-Everitt mini-golden age of the 1990s, most other clubs still always reckoned they could have the wood on us, but - with the exception of Port - this disappeared under GT).

However, GT was not really a full-on professional coach who crossed all the Ts and dotted the Is. Lyon and his team are like this and, perhaps more importantly, they are backed by a board who is prepared to invest in excellence to achieve excellence.

That's my version of the last 5 years, FWIW. I know that others feel differently, but they all have their axes to grind. My views are, as always, based entirely on rationality and unswerving insight.

[asiu]

My views are, as always, based entirely on rationality and unswerving insight.

as are mr fox's

[rodgerfox]

It strikes me that B4E is not alone on this forum in fervently espousing two seemingly irreconcilable propositions.

(a) GT ruined our list and we were "in decline" in 2006.

(b) The club was destined for a flag if we could only get ourselves a decent coach.

i cannot accept the idea that these two propositions could possibly both be true in the same rational universe.

Let's put emotive words like 'ruined' and 'destined' to one side for a moment....

If you cant concede we missed a chance for a flag in 2004 and 2005, and we were in decline in 2006 then you're not being fair dinkum.

I really should stop, but you appear to have invited me to restate my version of the history of the last few years.....

I don't think we seriously missed out in 2004: we were just not quite good enough. We had our best team on the park against both the Lions and Port in the finals games we lost to them, and we lost both games (being spanked by the Lions). And we struggled to beat the Swans on a ground and in weather conditions that should have favoured us.

In 2005 we were the best team in the comp IMO. Fully fit, we would have put away the Swans in the PF and would have outscored the wayward Eagles in the GF. Injuries got us: and not injuries caused by poor conditioning and hamstring management, but sheer bloody unlucky ones to in-form players like Kosi and Chips.

In 2006, we were still the best team in the comp IMO. After a slow start, we were warming up towards good form when we lost (a) Hamill (perrmanently as it turned out) and (b) Lenny. And then Kosi was taken out as well. None of these injuries had anything to do with conditioning or hamstring management: Hamill's was caused by an act of sheer bloody stupidity, Lenny's could happen to any player in any game, and Kosi's resulted from an unpunished mongrel act by an opposing player.

Nevertheless we battled on and missed the top 4 by a whisker (aka a Sirengate). Our injury problems overcame us in the Elimination Final and out we went in an inglorious (indeed, embarrassing) way, presumably neutralising any serious opposition on the Board to Butterss's longstanding, meglomania-induced plan to sack GT. with the assistance of Archie "Macbeth" Fraser.

We then got Lyon, who was (as we now know) a highly promising and talented coach but a total novice at that level who spent the best part of 18 months running our star players around in circles until he got a feel for the controls of the spaceship.

The situation wasn't helped by leadership at board level that was "away with the pixies" (that's the nicest way I can think of putting it) and continued to refuse to invest properly in onfield development. Also, Lyon brought with him three relatively inexperienced assistants who, like him, had had no prior connection with the club and its players and of whom at least one (Barker), seems to have been of questionable ability.

All of these problems have now been overcome and we are once again, as we were in 2005-06 IMO, the most talented and dangerous club in the AFL.

Does the transition from GT to Lyon represent an urgent action to prevent an otherwise disastrous decline? Personally, I think this view is nonsense.

I think Butterss (believe it or not) was closer to the truth in 2006 when he stated something along the lines of "GT was great at getting us to a certain point, but we need somebody else to take us to the next level". He was, of course, just being nice about it (I'm sure his real thoughts about GT were much more negative).

But GT did do a good job to motivate us and get us from the cellar to a point where (for the first time in decades) other clubs were genuinely scared of getting a pasting when they ran out to play us (I reckon that, even in the Lockett-Loewe-Winmar-Burke-Harvey-Everitt mini-golden age of the 1990s, most other clubs still always reckoned they could have the wood on us, but - with the exception of Port - this disappeared under GT).

However, GT was not really a full-on professional coach who crossed all the Ts and dotted the Is. Lyon and his team are like this and, perhaps more importantly, they are backed by a board who is prepared to invest in excellence to achieve excellence.

That's my version of the last 5 years, FWIW. I know that others feel differently, but they all have their axes to grind. My views are, as always, based entirely on rationality and unswerving insight.

I'd go as far as to say that I agree almost 99.9% with that post.

[joffaboy]

I think Butterss (believe it or not) was closer to the truth in 2006 when he stated something along the lines of "GT was great at getting us to a certain point, but we need somebody else to take us to the next level". He was, of course, just being nice about it (I'm sure his real thoughts about GT were much more negative).

But GT did do a good job to motivate us and get us from the cellar to a point where (for the first time in decades) other clubs were genuinely scared of getting a pasting when they ran out to play us (I reckon that, even in the Lockett-Loewe-Winmar-Burke-Harvey-Everitt mini-golden age of the 1990s, most other clubs still always reckoned they could have the wood on us, but - with the exception of Port - this disappeared under GT).

However, GT was not really a full-on professional coach who crossed all the Ts and dotted the Is. Lyon and his team are like this and, perhaps more importantly, they are backed by a board who is prepared to invest in excellence to achieve excellence.

This, to me, seems a fair view.

It has been misconstrued that I wanted GT sacked because I was anti-GT. If anyone bothered to go back and look at my posts during the GT era they would find I usually defended him against the chorus of "OUTCOACHED" every time we lost a game.

However I always thought that it would be beneficial if Gt handed over to a coach that could take the group further. He never would have stepped down so, when Butters sacked him, I wasn't upset. Now RL is showing his wares, I am very happy GT was let go.

GT, to his credit, has publicly said he couldn't coach as well as RL, that he was totally wrong on Gardiner, and that he would have sacked Milne. Good on him for being so honest.
Good on Butters for getting Lyon (forget the acrimonious departure of GT for a moment)
Good on Westaway and the current board for helping Rod out of the Presidency (although I was very wary -FF have impressed me greatly).

Good on the STKFC for its stability, both on and off the field.

Without the initial nuturing of Thomas for the team, and the Butterss board fiscal frugalty, we wouldn't be so stable in either areas.

That they have both gone is not sad. It just means that their time was up and their foundations at the club have been built upon by those who are now there.

We are 19-0 for a reason and no pondering of the past or allocation of blame will change the present or future.

[markp]

It strikes me that B4E is not alone on this forum in fervently espousing two seemingly irreconcilable propositions.

(a) GT ruined our list and we were "in decline" in 2006.

(b) The club was destined for a flag if we could only get ourselves a decent coach.

i cannot accept the idea that these two propositions could possibly both be true in the same rational universe.

Let's put emotive words like 'ruined' and 'destined' to one side for a moment....

If you cant concede we missed a chance for a flag in 2004 and 2005, and we were in decline in 2006 then you're not being fair dinkum.

Of course we missed a chance.

We missed a chance last year, and even the year before that.

Do I think we were the most likely side to win the flags in 04 and 05? Absolutely not.

We were not the best team in the comp in 04 by a longshot. We played a great first half of the year, then as young teams do, we came back to the pack as the season took it's toll.

As history dictates, the hardened mature teams played off for the flag. As disappointing as it was, I never once felt we 'let it slip'. We weren't good enough. Simple.

In 05, ahead of schedule, we were the best team in the comp. Had we not had 7 of our best 22 missing in the Prelim, we would have won the flag.
And Geelong too had every right to say 'had we not lost 4 players during the 3rd quarter against Sydney, we would have won the flag'.

We didn't win in 05 because of injuries. Nothing else.

In 06, our injuries were even worse. Yet we still plugged away and dominated a final until we lost 4 players through injury during the match.

Did we miss a chance? Of course. As did 5 other teams every year during this period.
Did we lose the unlosable? No.
Was the cause of us missing a chance, the fault of the coach? No.

Were we in decline in 06? No more than other team who has been a contender for 2-3 years in a row.

Did Geelong decline in 06? Who's fault was that?

We, like all other clubs who have 3 years in the top 4 were facing a situation where the older players are over the hill. It's called a mini-rebuild.
For some clubs, it's a full rebuild if the coach hasn't loaded up on the youth end of the list. Thomas had done this, so for us there was always going to be a lull of 2-3 years around the 2007 time.

So, to answer your question - were we in decline in 06? To a point.
Was it the fault of the coach? No.

Was there any way to avoid any form of decline, whilst remaining a contender within the rules of the AFL?

Geelong declined in 06. It's football. It's the way the system is designed.

Are Hawthorn in decline now?


The thing that our club did very well, was load up on quality youth. So, when the inevitable dip happened (which I always predicted would happen at the end of 07) it would only be a short wait until our core group of guns became the mature, hardened 100-150 game group that you need to be a premiership contender.

I've never argued the Thomas sacking. Only the timing. In my view (and now that we're 19-0 it doesn't really matter) he should have coached 2007 as the inevitable dip or 'decline' was going to happen anyway. So if he didn't get a flag in 07 (which I still feel we were capable of) he would have been sacked for a new coach to come in and start again.

Ah, is this all about you justifying a previous position?

How tedious.

By the 2004 GF the lions were shot, and we nearly had port...

In 2005 who knows, we were up at 3 quarter time, then the rest was a very painful blur, we kicked a few points and they kicked about 7- 8 goals. They were obviously much fitter than us... it was awful.

If we'd been able to find a few % more in those years it may very well have delivered a flag... but alas we didn't even make it into a GF.

Whose fault was that?... not mine... pretty sure it wasn't yours either.... hmmm.

2006 we went into an elimination final with injured players and it was a disaster... by 'dominated the final' do you mean 3 goals up at halftime? The team that beat us were beaten by freo the following week.... Could we have beaten the Swans or the Eagles that year coming from 6th? We didn't get close, regardless of excuses... again, I'm almost certain that none of this was either my or your fault....

Are you suggesting that during this time we were just unlucky?

2007 we would never have gotten near the cats, it was their year from start to finish... and as it turned out it was a good time to be taking a step back and reloading.

If we'd had our cr@p together last year it could've been us snagging one.... the hawks doing that really p1ssed me off.

At least now we've reloaded in a way that sets us up for successive if not numerous tilts, and not just a barnstorm at a flag.

However it is we got here, I'm grateful.

[asiu]

Without the initial nuturing of Thomas for the team, and the Butterss board fiscal frugalty, we wouldn't be so stable in either areas.

and this reality , created the environment that gt had to operate in

That they have both gone is not sad. It just means that their time was up and their foundations at the club have been built upon by those who are now there.

perfect


therefore , its thanx everyone , including gt

[barks4eva]

My views are, as always, based entirely on rationality and unswerving insight.

as are mr fox's

The nuffies stay thick!

[stinger]

we are 19 zip...having the best home and away series in my lifetime....odds on to win our first afl flag...and still the nuff nuffs on here want to compare apples to oranges ffs...get real...get over it.and.move on ffs...


....at the end of the day....if and when we win there will be a lot of people who have played their part. ...and be deserving of our heartfelt thanks..thomas will be on that list....butterss even.....



milne is still with the club.......so he must not have been traded.....he has come on in leaps and bounds under lyon.everybody ...even blind freddie can see that...wtf are we arguing about.....

[asiu]

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thanx grant

[stinger]

[asiu]

it usually takes 18 pages for barks to write something original

i'm getting bored , thought it would be obvious


in the end , he will say , thanx grant

[stinger]

it usually takes 18 pages for barks to write something original

i'm getting bored , thought it would be obvious


in the end , he will say , thanx grant

... ...one would hope so...but i won't hold my breath....

[asiu]

its my job on the planet ,


supporting barks through that , most 'sensitive of moments'


it'll be hard , but i'll do it for the club


and andrew




it'llbefun

[saintsRrising]

I think Butters (believe it or not) was closer to the truth in 2006 when he stated something along the lines of "GT was great at getting us to a certain point, but we need somebody else to take us to the next level". He was, of course, just being nice about it (I'm sure his real thoughts about GT were much more negative).

I'd go as far as to say that I agree almost 99.9% with that post.

Interesting....a while back you were not that complimentary about Butters appointing a coach to take the next step.

[satchmo]

its my job on the planet ,


supporting barks through that , most 'sensitive of moments'


it'll be hard , but i'll do it for the club


and andrew




it'llbefun

If you succeed gaz, I'll be the first to shake your hand and buy you a beer. And I'll buy andrew one and you can drink that as well!

[asiu]

he drinks his vodka with orange
i'd suggest tonic with ours

surely if we won the flag , barks would be magnanimous enough to say
thankyou grantly

[The Fireman]

he drinks his vodka with orange
i'd suggest tonic with ours

surely if we won the flag , barks would be magnanimous enough to say
thankyou grantly

3 parts Vodka
1 part Gin
1 part Noillyprat

a lemon rind or Olive...whack down a couple of these and a hurricane would seem like a soft handshake....oh and kudos to GT for setting us up so as Ross can add the icing.

[satchmo]

he drinks his vodka with orange
i'd suggest tonic with ours

surely if we won the flag , barks would be magnanimous enough to say
thankyou grantly

Vodka is for Bloody Marys (could be renamed Bloody Umpires).

Hell, if we win the flag, I'd kiss Tim Watson's ......er....daughter?

[asiu]

Noilly Prat, originally a dry white vermouth from Marseillan, in the Hérault département of Southern France. Joseph Noilly, a herbalist, developed the first formula in 1813. It was the first example of a dry vermouth and led to white vermouths being known as "French". Red and amber versions are more recent and less widely known. Noilly Prat is 18% alcohol by volume.

ok , i can do that

[saintsRrising]

We then got Lyon, who was (as we now know) a highly promising and talented coach but a total novice at that level who spent the best part of 18 months running our star players around in circles until he got a feel for the controls of the spaceship.

:

What an absolutely clueless comment...and no wonder that you were demanding that Lyon be sacked.

Lyon inherited a team of downhill skiers

For all the fawning that many do over GT his legacy was a team mainly made up of players that could not work for 4 quarters.

Yes they could look good in patches...but would disappear for whole quarters or half a game if we played a good opponent.

If the opposition got a roll on, we had no way of impeding them.

You do not walk in the door..snap your fingers and have downhill skiers instantly turn in disciplined players.

As I posted when Lyon took over his No 1 problem was the workrate of the players and getting them to commit. Lyon had to plug away at this taking ever increasing action to get the recalcitrants on board.


Meanwhile each year Lyon has worked diligently to fix the structural deficiencies that had developed under the inept List (mis)Management of GT.

We now have good rucks (and none of this GT tried to get Cox crap..fact is he got Rix, Knoble and Ackland!!! Could of had Brogan..but picked Brooks instead))
We now have better depth
We now have more key defenders
We now have several small fowards
We now have more pace in the midfield

2004 and 2005 were years when with the talent that had been assembled that we should have one at least one flag. More so as there were no real power teams in those years. Both the Lions and the Power were well past their best.

And as to that Swans game....if our team had a defensive side to it do you not think that we would have had a better chance of stopping their roll in that last quarter?

Coach...no you had a fan in the coaches box living every boys dream....at the expense of all other St Kilda fans.


Now we have a team where those same downhill skiers have been turned into players, or have been turned over.

So now Dal and Milne are not just gifted players good fora highlights real...they are players that the opposition fear and who are admired for their total game....as is Schneider, as is Ray, as is McQualter, as is Joey.......and those that could ot commit such as Fiora have left.

And even Riewoldt who was a very good player is now a better play because his game is truly complete.

Yet MB casts scorn at Lyon because he did not achieve all this is "7 days and 7 nights".

[The Fireman]

Noilly Prat, originally a dry white vermouth from Marseillan, in the Hérault département of Southern France. Joseph Noilly, a herbalist, developed the first formula in 1813. It was the first example of a dry vermouth and led to white vermouths being known as "French". Red and amber versions are more recent and less widely known. Noilly Prat is 18% alcohol by volume.

ok , i can do that

While you are in Marseillan grab me a spare one..I'm running low
Oh and substituting it with any Vermouth minimally alters the pressure of that hand shake.