Thank god Milne did not get sacked

[Mr Magic]

Immaterial of the posters' opinions and bias for/against GT/RL, it's pretty obvious htat the Milne we currently have playing for us now is a result of the coaching of RL.

Had GT not been sacked he would either be playing against us or not at all in the AFL.

It's a fact, not an opinion on the relative merits of one coach over the other.

Out of interest, do you know if Milne was definitely "gone" under GT, or just the subject of a proposed trade which - if it had fallen through - would have left him at the club?

I accept GT's word on it. He stated categorically last night on FC that he himself got sacked before he could sack Milne.

ANf as the Coach and person in charge of List Management at the time, he had every right to make that decision.
Just as RL has made similar decisions over the past 2 years to sack other players.

[Milton66]

I have to admit that I always viewed 44 as a down hill skier, and believed that we'd never win a flag with him (and CJ) in the team.

Glad to be proven wrong.

GT has valid points, but should stop trying to make himself relevant by being controversial.

[saintsRrising]

I have to admit that I always viewed 44 as a down hill skier, .

We had many downhill skiers....and as a team many over-rated the Saints for when all was on song we looked awesome.

But too many went missing too often against tough opposition.

Which is not say that there was not plenty of talent....but workrate and discipline were often lacking.

[Teflon]

Quite a sad reflection on a supporter base when we're 19-0, and people are starting bitter threads about a coach who hasn't been at the club for 3 years.

I thought you "didnt love the club anymore"...or was that the "club didnt love you" and you were all deflated (thats a lot of air..) and had lost passion and stuff....

How's the love at 19-0? - has Lyon still not "really done much" in your world?

Im stunned that creatures that forecast the years of "doom and gloom" still attempt to post from some moral vantage point...

But its not even really about the posts is it? ....

[evertonfc]

I doubt GT would have delisted Milne. He would have traded for him. He wanted a top pick.

Milne wasn't delivering what he was asked to do. I don't think GT purposely asked Milne to play an absolute stinker in the 2004 PF.

Milne was a chronic underperformer in big games. GT wanted a side that could win a flag, not choke.

Credit to RL for sticking with him and getting the best from him. Having said that, it wasn't though GT f***ed Milne up - he did kick a LOT of goals under his coaching.

[Teflon]

RL is a better coach and has gotten more out of him. That doesn't mean GT's criticims aren't warranted

Well summed up.


And it is the essence of why we are far better off with Lyon.

Milne
Ray
Schneider
Dawson

Anyone starting to spot a trend.....

well said.

Facts are indisputable - Lyon cr@ps on the used car salesman as a coach and only the "disciples of love" still hold out some weird infatuation with the corporate snake oil man.

I listen to Thomas on FC and cringe at most of what he says - its all meaningless words that go nowhere and leave the other panelist laughing at this joker (not to mention the amount of times he gets his facts wrong...).

Sure Butters stuffed up the process when he helped put Thomas the new coach/marketing manager/fitness advisor/Russian weight loss guru in....but at least he corrected that (and time will tell) but his final decision may just be the most telling in securing this club a flag.

[Teflon]

I doubt GT would have delisted Milne. He would have traded for him. He wanted a top pick.

Milne wasn't delivering what he was asked to do. I don't think GT purposely asked Milne to play an absolute stinker in the 2004 PF.

Milne was a chronic underperformer in big games. GT wanted a side that could win a flag, not choke.

Credit to RL for sticking with him and getting the best from him. Having said that, it wasn't though GT f***ed Milne up - he did kick a LOT of goals under his coaching.

His management of Luke Ball still has me perplexed.....

[evertonfc]

His management of Luke Ball still has me perplexed.....

It's interesting. There seems to be a theory that our club made finals from 04-06 despite GT.

Seriously, if Hamill wasn't a late withdrawal in that 04 Prelim, we'd have won it that year and the bloke would be hailed as the greatest coach in our history and would still be coaching today.

It's amazing how things can turn on a knife-edge. I love the fact that RL has turned us into an even better team; he's added the defensive edge.

But GT taught us how to attack, and not to be ashamed of this football club.

Both GT and RL have transformed this club since 2000 from a club that went from 2-20 in 2000 to 19-0 in 2000.

Both deserve credit, not scorn.

[Shaggy]

RL is a better coach and has gotten more out of him. That doesn't mean GT's criticims aren't warranted

Well summed up.


And it is the essence of why we are far better off with Lyon.

Milne
Ray
Schneider
Dawson

Anyone starting to spot a trend.....

well said.

Facts are indisputable - Lyon cr@ps on the used car salesman as a coach and only the "disciples of love" still hold out some weird infatuation with the corporate snake oil man.

I listen to Thomas on FC and cringe at most of what he says - its all meaningless words that go nowhere and leave the other panelist laughing at this joker (not to mention the amount of times he gets his facts wrong...).

Sure Butters stuffed up the process when he helped put Thomas the new coach/marketing manager/fitness advisor/Russian weight loss guru in....but at least he corrected that (and time will tell) but his final decision may just be the most tellingce uring this club a flag.

Having been at East Sandy on the week end and looked at the boards your old man really stuffed up with Judd.

I didn't realise the close conection. Judd should have been a Saint.

Your old man was chairman but lacked the balls to force him through despite the background. Unbelieveable.

With Judd we would have had a flag already IMO (and your old man was obviously very close to him)

[matrix]

did he actually say he was a twit and it would have been a nuff nuff decision had he booted milney??

sometimes i dont mind what he has to say
then sometimes he says the weirdest things

mehhh

Nope.... he said (or words to the effect) that he's doing well and maybe the penny has 'finally' dropped for him (roll roll), but he still hasn't really proven himself, and only after performing well on GF day will he ring him to congratulate him....

He also inferred that he knew about all the outs last monday when he tipped the Saints on the show...

The guy is fast entering the realm of nuffy-dom and has become the daryl somers of the AFL.

hahaha
so its he's fault the bookies paniced
gawd...
nuffydom lol
classic

[rodgerfox]

Just a hypothetical seeing as for some reason, people still seem to be interested in talking about things that happened 3 years ago....

How do people think Thomas would have gone with Roo, Kosi, Ball, Dal, BJ, Milne, Fisher, Gilbert, Clarke, Joey and McQualter as mature 100-150 gamers? As opposed to immature (both physically and mentally) 50-100 gamers?

[rodgerfox]

Quite a sad reflection on a supporter base when we're 19-0, and people are starting bitter threads about a coach who hasn't been at the club for 3 years.

I thought you "didnt love the club anymore"...or was that the "club didnt love you" and you were all deflated (thats a lot of air..) and had lost passion and stuff....

How's the love at 19-0? - has Lyon still not "really done much" in your world?

Im stunned that creatures that forecast the years of "doom and gloom" still attempt to post from some moral vantage point...

But its not even really about the posts is it? ....

Wow.

Talk about out of left field! Not sure how this is even close to topic, but I'll try to respond...

"I thought you "didnt love the club anymore"...or was that the "club didnt love you" and you were all deflated (thats a lot of air..) and had lost passion and stuff...."

Bizarre. Not sure who you're quoting there, and why it ended up in a post directed at me.

I haven't 'loved' a footy club since I stopped playing for one, and I haven't 'loved' the Saints since I hit puberty.

I find the concept of 'loving' a footy club if you have no official involvement in it odd for grown men. Maybe that's just me. But my life is full of far more important things to love than a footy club.

"How's the love at 19-0? - has Lyon still not "really done much" in your world?"

See my above response in regards to 'love'.

As for Lyon, well I think it's fair to say that he's clearly done something now. It's amusing that people who were declaring him a super coach when he couldn't get out of his own daylight and made us miss the finals for the first time in a long time - now feel vindicated.

Feel vindicated for having blind faith, sure. Kudos for being loyal. But please don't insult the intelligence of other posters by feeling vindicated for believing you were right.

Seriously.

"Im stunned that creatures that forecast the years of "doom and gloom" still attempt to post from some moral vantage point..."

If you bothered to read what I posted at the time (and I still find it strange that raise that thread so much, as it was 100% spot on) was that sacking Thomas a year early was a mistake. It was a mistake because it forced us into a rebuilding phase, that we weren't quite ready for.
I predicted 2-3 years of 'doom and gloom' as you put it - although I put it at the time as '2-3 of being in the 8, but not a real contender during that time'.

I don't like to say 'I told you so' much, but when you keep raising old issues like that, I don't really have much choice.



"But its not even really about the posts is it?"

I don't even know what that means, so apologies but I can't respond. If posting on an internet forum isn't about the posts, what could it be about??
[/b]

[Mr Magic]

Just a hypothetical seeing as for some reason, people still seem to be interested in talking about things that happened 3 years ago....

How do people think Thomas would have gone with Roo, Kosi, Ball, Dal, BJ, Milne, Fisher, Gilbert, Clarke, Joey and McQualter as mature 100-150 gamers? As opposed to immature (both physically and mentally) 50-100 gamers?

RL, at least on last game's evidence, has managed to figure out how to win without his best players.

Here's a hypothetical back for you:-
How well do you think RL would have this team playing if he had the following players in their prime/peak
Gehrig
Penny
Powell
Jones
Hammill
Everitt
Hall
Thompson
Peckett
Maguire
Loewe
Burke
Harvey

GT had all of them at some stage of his tenure. And all of them were in better shape under GT than they ever were with RL, if they were in fact still playing when RL was appointed.

[saintly]

I have to admit that I always viewed 44 as a down hill skier, and believed that we'd never win a flag with him (and CJ) in the team.

Glad to be proven wrong.

GT has valid points, but should stop trying to make himself relevant by being controversial.

unfortunately as the team gets closer to the grandfinal the media will continually go to thomas for answers/questions/comments. and unfortunately he will answer them and be controversioal so he can still be on the airwaves

[rodgerfox]

Just a hypothetical seeing as for some reason, people still seem to be interested in talking about things that happened 3 years ago....

How do people think Thomas would have gone with Roo, Kosi, Ball, Dal, BJ, Milne, Fisher, Gilbert, Clarke, Joey and McQualter as mature 100-150 gamers? As opposed to immature (both physically and mentally) 50-100 gamers?

RL, at least on last game's evidence, has managed to figure out how to win without his best players.

Let's keep some perspective on that can we.

Great win, no doubt. The team played very well. But we beat a team with about 8 of their best players out too. And 2 of their best ones were cactus during the game too.

So great win, but I'm ready to declare that we are a force without our best players in just yet.

Here's a hypothetical back for you:-
How well do you think RL would have this team playing if he had the following players in their prime/peak
Gehrig
Penny
Powell
Jones
Hammill
Everitt
Hall
Thompson
Peckett
Maguire
Loewe
Burke
Harvey

GT had all of them at some stage of his tenure. And all of them were in better shape under GT than they ever were with RL, if they were in fact still playing when RL was appointed.

And that's a very reasonable hypothetical.

If they were all fit at the same time, I'm sure he would have done very well. I'm sure GT would have too - infact he did. Most coaches would have.

[rodgerfox]

unfortunately as the team gets closer to the grandfinal the media will continually go to thomas for answers/questions/comments. and unfortunately he will answer them and be controversioal so he can still be on the airwaves

Just to bring you up to speed, Thomas is the media.

They don't have to come to him - it's his job now to express his views.

The best part about it, is that you have no oglbigation to listen.

[Mr Magic]

So rodger, why the continual belittling of RL's performance as coach.

You seem so quick to jump to the defence of GT with 'reasonable' points and yet you seem to try and downplay RL at almost any opportunity.

Even any kudos you give to RL is tempered with a 'backhander', why?

Is it sttill to do with your stated fact that you knew RL was no good as a coach within 3 months of his signing?

Or have you now changed your mind, given this season's performances, and are ready to admit that your opinion on his inability to coach well was arrived at too hastily?

[rodgerfox]

So rodger, why the continual belittling of RL's performance as coach.

I haven't belittled his performance. I've been critical of it, sure. But I wouldn't use the term belittling at all.

If I was belittling him or his performance, then I could understand the tantrums that are directed my way when I post. But I don't belittle him or his performance - I'm simply critical when I see something that I believe worthy of criticism.

You seem so quick to jump to the defence of GT with 'reasonable' points and yet you seem to try and downplay RL at almost any opportunity.

Even any kudos you give to RL is tempered with a 'backhander', why?

I don't jump to GT's defence at all. I argue a differeng view on any topic where I see people saying stupid or completely false things.

It's just a coincidence that people say alot of stupid and completely false things about GT's coaching tenure with us.

Is it sttill to do with your stated fact that you knew RL was no good as a coach within 3 months of his signing?

That's a lie.

I never stated that at all.

If you want to ask a question, have the decency to get your facts straight.

Or have you now changed your mind, given this season's performances, and are ready to admit that your opinion on his inability to coach well was arrived at too hastily?

My opinion on alot of things has changed.

My opinion on some other things is exactly the same as it was.

[saint66au]

Great win, no doubt. The team played very well. But we beat a team with about 8 of their best players out too. And 2 of their best ones were cactus during the game too.

Really sick of this argument. If anyone can say that the combined talent of the Hawks missing players is equal or greater than that of the missing Saints..well..I reckon you might need to go watch some more footy

Riewoldt
Goddard
Hayes
Montagna
Dal Santo
Fisher

vs

Young
Ellis
Williams
Dew
Croad
Ladson

Oh spare me..

They had their top 3 B&F's from last year playing...we had none..

Pull Mitchell, Hodge and Buddy out of that side and you might have an argument

[rodgerfox]

Great win, no doubt. The team played very well. But we beat a team with about 8 of their best players out too. And 2 of their best ones were cactus during the game too.

Really sick of this argument. If anyone can say that the combined talent of the Hawks missing players is equal or greater than that of the missing Saints..well..I reckon you might need to go watch some more footy

Riewoldt
Goddard
Hayes
Montagna
Dal Santo
Fisher

vs

Young
Ellis
Williams
Dew
Croad
Ladson

Oh spare me..

They had their top 3 B&F's from last year playing...we had none..

Pull Mitchell, Hodge and Buddy out of that side and you might have an argument

My argument isn't that they were worse off than us. We won well, it was a great win.

All I'm saying is that I'm not ready to put the 'we need our best players fit and on the park for us to win' to bed just yet.

To say that 'Lyon has managed to figure out how to win without his best players' based on last week's game is a bit premature I think.

[milney044]

3 pages on a Milne thread and i haven't had my say...time is up!

Now 2004 is a while back now but i remember it quite well. The end of 2004 saw Milney in and out of the side quite a bit despite a fairly consistent season (41 goals after rd 22). The last match against Freo while quite insignificant deemed a pretty important match for Milne. He had a quiet game and dispite our win i remember him looking pretty dejected after the match. The following week i saw why- Milney was left out of our first final - an interstate trip against the Lions. He obviously had not done enough in the Rd 22 clash- and he knew it.
After our smashing by 80 odd points Milne was selected the following week against the Swans along with Peckett. Now few seem to remember this but Milne actually contributed quite well with 4 goals on an extremely wet night at the G.
The next week was a Prelim and Milney took a strong mark in front of goal but missed the goal he should have kicked. After this Milney was on and off the bench the whole night - mainly off - rotated with Guerra. In my eyes both should have been on the ground together and i still cringe when i think of those final moments when Guerra ran into that goal square with no Milne for support..sigh.

Now by this stage Milne had one solid game in a final followed by a less than impressive Prelim with minimal game time. The very next year in round 22 Milne kicked 11 goals in a 139 point drumming, he was amazing. Gt is on record saying he considered dropping milne for the final against Adelaide but was overthrown by the rest of the coaching staff. That's right. DROPPED after an 11 goal haul because he believed Milne would make no impact in the final. This judgement after ONE ordinary game in a Prelim. How would you feel if you were Milne and your coach had this sort of faith in you. Milne would have been told round 22 2004 that he didn't put in a big enough effort to cement a spot the next week, so 2005 he comes out with a 10/10 game and still the coach wants to have him dropped. What sort of a lesson is that?

Thank God Ross has come along and shown Milne that bit of faith and confidence that he can get more out of himself. And credit to Milne for adding new dimensions to his game that have seen him improve out of sight.

that's my 2 cents.. or maybe a little more...long post!

[markp]

It's interesting. There seems to be a theory that our club made finals from 04-06 despite GT.

No, the theory is we would've won a flag during that period with a decent coach.... as it turned out we didn't even make it to a GF in that time.

Seriously, if Hamill wasn't a late withdrawal in that 04 Prelim, we'd have won it that year and the bloke would be hailed as the greatest coach in our history and would still be coaching today.

It's amazing how things can turn on a knife-edge.

Yup, and if George W. had found WMD and brought lasting peace to the Middle East he'd be remembered as one of the greatest Presidents ever.... He came to power under dubious circumstances, demanded a high degree of control and autonomy, stepped on peoples toes, took a massive punt... and failed. History is never kind to such men.

I love the fact that RL has turned us into an even better team; he's added the defensive edge.

We were on the wane when RL arrived..... he pulled us out of a nosedive.

RL is worth his weight in gold.

But GT taught us how to attack, and not to be ashamed of this football club.

When were you ashamed of the Club?

Both GT and RL have transformed this club since 2000 from a club that went from 2-20 in 2000 to 19-0 in 2000.

We went ok in '97 I recall, then we entered a tunnel... Timmy was one of the worst coaches of all time, Blight was asleep at the wheel... but we were inadvertently doing what other Clubs engineer these days... bottoming out and reaping draft picks.

Both deserve credit, not scorn.

I'd be heaping praise on GT if he'd stepped aside for a better coach earlier (as he said he would), or if he'd at least STFU after he was finished.... Alves, Watson, and even Blight managed to blossom in the media without making total twats of themselves.... well, maybe not Blight.

[SainterK]

Who would sing the echo in rooms after the game

[matrix]

3 years ago?
didnt he say this the other day

[Mr Magic]

Is it sttill to do with your stated fact that you knew RL was no good as a coach within 3 months of his signing?

That's a lie.

I never stated that at all.

If you want to ask a question, have the decency to get your facts straight.

One can always tell when rodger is losing the argument/debate - the 'it's a lie/you're a liar taunt comes out.

rodger, I certainly remember your quote that you knew RL was no good within 3 months of his appointment. There were pages of debate following your statement aound the fact that we hadn't even played an intr-club practice match when you came to your opinion.

You might want to distance yourself from your nonsensical post as much as possible, but too many on here read it.
The view was held up to ridicule by many when you made it, and it looks even more ridiculous today.

The only lie in all of this is your denial that you expressed that view.

You can denyit, twist it and camouflage it, but it's still the same crap you've been trying to spread on here since the sacking of GT.

Why not just admit you were hasty in your opinion, now that circumstances seem to have put paid to your notion?.
I'm sure nobody will think any less of you if you do admit to having changed your mind.