Selection policy consistent all season - get over it

[meher baba]

Why I never had any doubt that Gwilt and Max would come back in this week, and that Goose, Armo and Geary and, most likely, Ball would remain out, is because the Lyon and the other selectors have had an amazingly consistent policy on selection so far this year (and, if you look back, for the second half of last year).

Posters can grumble and complain about it all they like, but I don't expect it to change any time soon.

What we have is something akin to the way the test cricket team is selected: that is, a consistent "order of merit". Once a player has achieved a high position on the list, they need a reasonably prolonged loss of form to be bumped out of the team. Further down the list, players will be moved in and out of the team on the extent to which they fulfil their missions. Injuries higher up the list will push fringe players onto the list.

To get onto the order of merit, players need to demonstrate prolonged good form. Potential or flashes of good form aren't enough. The reason for this is that part of the current strategy is that the more our players
play together and become familiar with each other taking particular roles, the better the team will function as a unit.

Like it or lump it, players like Raph and Dempster - along with all the obvious ones - are seen as being in the upper echelon of the order of merit, and will be selected if they are fit and not considered to be too badly out of form. If upper echelon players are dropped for a bit because of poor form (as Gram was in Rd 9, Raph in Rd 12 and Ball in Rd 16), then they will still be given every chance to make it back (well, at least, Raph and Gram have been, and I hope Ball does).

Lower down the list, players have to perform well every week to maintain their spots unless and until they make it into the upper echelon. Dawson, Ray and McQualter have made the transition, while Geary, Gwilt and Eddy have not: and the latter three will be dropped whenever there are enough upper echelon players available to fill up a 22 (I make it that we have 23 fit upper echelon players at the moment: with the 22nd place subject to competition between Max and Dawson).

But I also think that Gwilt, Eddy and Geary (although Geary has been out of form lately) are also in the position of being first dibs at any spot that does become available: ie, because 2 or more of the top 23 are not available. And, of course, McEvoy seems to be automatic first pick if either King or Gardi are out.

Below this "top 27", players will need to make cases for consideration. The club has shown - by naming them as emergencies fairly frequently - that it considers Armo and Miles to be close. Goose is a bit further away and X and perhaps Allen would be in the mix if they were fit. At this stage, I reckon the others should be thinking about 2010.

And even Armo, Miles and Goose are going to have to do something fairly extraordinary at VFL level to knock Gwilt and Eddy off their current perches (or, alternatively, Gwilt, Geary and Eddy will have to have some absolute shockers). And, even then, if the 22 or 23 of the "upper echelon" players are available, then the likes of Armo, Miles and Goose still won't get a game anyway.

The only way this will change significantly is if Lyon goes back on his word and decides consciously to rest a few players over the last 5 rounds.

Even if we lost a couple of games in a row, we know from past experience that Lyon likes - barring injuries - to make no more than 2 changes to the lineup each week.

It might seem unfair and unjust to the likes of Armo and Goose. But we are 16-0............................

[Superboot]

An additional factor is selection on the basis of the player's capacity to fill a required role. It goes beyond an individual's football ability is isolation.

Goose may or may not be a better all-round player than Jimmy on paper but that's not the point. If the team structure requires that a specific role be filled and Jim can do that job better, then Jim will be selected. The selection of Goose might require a major reshuffle to accommodate his particular strengths and weaknesses and this might be seen as a disruption. The present structure was built without Goose's inclusion and he doesn't necessarily fit in.

It goes back to that point made a poster here and on SEN that we have had better players at St Kilda but we've arguably never had a better team.

[DWOODROW]

Good post. I agree. While I want to see Armo in the team I am not disgruntled about him not being in the team. Alot of posters are getting way to worked up about Non Inclusions.( Maguire) I would have thought that the team and the Premiership would mean more to supporters than if there favourite player isn't or is playing. I love Dave but I think he will get his chance in due course and Ross has obviously got his head screwd on correctly and IMO knows how to manage his players. Whether we agree fully or not. He gets paid the big bucks to Perform and make the hard decisions. Not posters. Still feels good to get opinions out but as I have learned it only gets it off your chest. It doesn't change the overall result.

Let's pray the Saints are there on the last day and prepare to be enthralled by the spectacle that is the Grand Final. Hopefully with a win against Geelong.

[joffaboy]

Yeah pretty fair post.

We have actually been fortunate that our golden year comes at a time when young players will be very hard to come by via the draft due to the compromises made for GC and then West Sydney for years to come.

AFAIAC we have a plethora of younger players like Armo, Lynch, Heyne, McEvoy, Miles, Steven, and two or three others who can learn their craft in the twos without having to fast track them in the seniors.

Coaches talk about "getting games" into young players. Well this can also apply at the second level of football as well. This means these young players are getting experience and will be able to fit into the seniors with little problem and plenty of football experience.

This is a by product but in the medium term (over the next 5 years or so) this will reap benefits for the club going forward.

[saintly]

Yeah pretty fair post.

We have actually been fortunate that our golden year comes at a time when young players will be very hard to come by via the draft due to the compromises made for GC and then West Sydney for years to come.

AFAIAC we have a plethora of younger players like Armo, Lynch, Heyne, McEvoy, Miles, Steven, and two or three others who can learn their craft in the twos without having to fast track them in the seniors.

Coaches talk about "getting games" into young players. Well this can also apply at the second level of football as well. This means these young players are getting experience and will be able to fit into the seniors with little problem and plenty of football experience.

This is a by product but in the medium term (over the next 5 years or so) this will reap benefits for the club going forward.

that is why we have one of the longest if not the longest rookie lists.

the saints know what they are doing and what they are preaparing for over the next 2-3 years. when GC comes in

[Darrel Baldock]

That a lot of sense. A wonderful and perceptive post. It makes sense that this is how Lyon achieves a stable team set-up and how he maintains it. Such a team is based on performance rather than reputation.

[Moods]

I agree with the OP. It's interesting when you compare ourselection criteria with that of say a Collingwood. Brad Dick had been in reasonable form, was down the last 2 weeks (particularly last week) and out he goes. Malthouse seems more about rewarding anyone who has been playing well in the 2nds - on this criteria I reckon Lynch would have got a game at the saints by now.

I respect Malthouse as a coach ( as a bloke he seems a bit of a tosser, by the way he portrays himself in the media anyway) so it's interesting to see the different philosphies.

Not sure ANYONE can complain about anything Rossy Lyon has done this year. Almost everything he's tried has turned to gold. I reckon I'll leave King Midas to do what he sees fit.

[aussiejones]

'Not sure ANYONE can complain about anything Rossy Lyon has done this year'

Sure has the score on the board.

[InkerSaint]

Hear hear mb, well said and about time.

[st.byron]

Good post MB. I could quibble about the details of who's in the top echelon and who isn't but I reckon you and Superboot have nicely summed up Ross's approach to selection. Every player has a job to do within the team structure and they carry out that job determines whether or not they hold their place in the team.
This structured approach has allowed Mini and CJ in particular to evolve from fringe players to consistently good players and it provides direction and measuring sticks for players like Geary, Gwilt, Eddy and Raph.

[Hawkesbury Saint]

Gee you cop some rubbishing at times MB. While I don't always agree, I find your posts thoughtful. (Even when from way out left field!)

These obeservations are very astute. I think you are right on the money and appreciate your insights.

I really like it when we share ideas and not a passion to tear one anothe down onj this forum.

[PJ]

I think the media are partly responsible for pumping up people's perspective on players I mean have a look at how many articles there are on Goose at the moment. I don't think people will ever stop wanting their favourite player selected when you get 5,000 articles written on their IMMENENT return. The media have just picked up on his tragic accident, his courage and run with it - it makes for good human interest stories but has little to do with our selection processes.

[saintsRrising]

A pretty fair OP MB.



IMO Lyon's approach is all about September and IMO he quite clearly has in mind what the "perfect" team is given who we have on our list.....and how they need to play to be a good finals team.

The focus is all about playing as we need to play in "The St Kilda Way" with the belief being that if that is done, that goals and victories will result.

A key plank of "The St Kilda" way is TEAM football..and the ability of individuals to contribute to the TEAM. Many fans look at individuals and want them selected based on individual criteria.

Wheres Lyon selects his players "Jig Saw" like...where the player selected must fit into what is required....as opposed to the team having to adapt to a player.

"The St Kilda Way" is TEAM ata level even beyond what the Cats were delivering. If we have players that cannot play their role, to deliver their piece of the "Jig-saw", then they weeken us.

A champion team is better than team full of champions.

"Merit" is earned by the ability to deliver on the team play criteria that Lyon and his assistants regard as important.


McQualter is a case in point. The transformation in his game has been quite stunning. He is the epitome of "Mr Team Player" now. His tackle count and goal-assist tallies are impressive...as is his one per centers. So Mini now is a piece of our Jig-Saw. He knows what he needs to do...and does it precisely.

So when it comes to selection it matters little where a player was taken in a draft (which is how many supporters rank their players), nor the size of their pay cheque.

What matters is there ability to contribute to and achieve "The St Kilda Way" of playing balanced with team structure.


However I would note that selection is based largely, but not solely, on "merit".

This means that while the majority of the team is based on the "merit" of what a player can contribute to victory this week that Lyon also has a an eye on what he envisages are "best 22" will be.

CASE A: Gwilt. Lyon knows that not having a "medium" forward is now our one real lack in terms of team structure. Gwilt has an upside in this and so was given many games earlier this year to "grow" into the role. He was "ok-ish"...not good nor bad. so aftera series of games was sent back....and this week is being given another chance to assume this role.

Apart from Gwilt our cupboard is basically bare, unless he uses someone like BJ who has great value elsewhere.

Lynch is looking good for the future...but Lyon also knows that finals football often requires hard and tough bodies...and this season Lynch canot offer that. bare in mind how the more highly rated watts struggled at senior level.

CASE B. Raph His finals form last year was sensational. Arguably across all finals he was our best player. Lyon would like this back this Sept. Quite rightly Raph was played earlier this year based n this. But his form was disappointing...and so after an extended run was dropped. He has been brought back in and perservered with to see if he can get back to that form. His first couple of games were ordinary..but the tend is better. If he maintains the improvement he will stay in as he offers versatility...and Lyon IMO likes players to be able to play a number of roles. However if Raph does not notch p a cog..if all of our other derfnders are all fit and not suspended then he might get squeezed out.

CASE C Goose. His form has not been good enough to "demand" a place back. But on the other hand has been ok enough thata recall would not have been out of place. However counting against Goose is that our other tallish defenders have all been i good to very good form.

Also very importantly all except perhaps Zac are very versatile players that can play on tall, mediums ad smalls. Blake over the last few years has turned into a very competent defender who can take a key position or a small...and who in particular has probably kept Goose out. A team such as the Dogs only compounds this lake of versatility for Goose as the Dogs could easily only play a forward line with no talls on it requiring Goose if playing to be benched or moved up forward.

Now arguably Goose could have played this week as a key forward...but for that finals 22 he will not be in front of Roo and Kosi..and a forward line with all three would be cumbersome. The ability to apply great forward pressure is a key part of our success this year.

[ratismeat]

good post. the conservative selection strategy has worked well this year - maintaining chemistry and consistency and valuing role-playing over flair.

Makes thursday nights a little less exciting though.

[Quixote]

Perhaps it's a bi-product of this picking the best team, not the best players, but our players, led by Mini, have become much, much smarter footballers for it.

For the first time last week, RL mentioned Mini as one of our leaders.

[starsign]

It's good stuff to read the thoughtful insights of most of the above posters when it coincides with ones own thoughts at present , and woderfully reassuring that this forum has got a few posters with considerable footy nouse!


go sainters and i recon without doubt ...in RL and his committed group we trust !