Grant Thomas believes his old team can take next step

[saintsRrising]

No my posts of support were because IMO Ross was doing those things that needed to be done to develop St KFC into successful club.

Like what, exactly?.

Lyon when he started stated in his first few days on the job that we needed ruckmen, to have more run through the middle and to improve our forward pressure.

All of these matters he has systematically addressed.

Ruckmen: Traded for Gardiner and King. Obtained Clarke as a back-up ruckman through the PSD. For the future has secure McEvoy, Stanlet and MGrath..at least one possibly two I would see as making it.

Run through the middle: Gram now often plays there, along with CJ as a fast tagger. Ray has been a great aquisition. joey has blossomed though may well have anyway.


Forward Pressure: Went out and gained Schneider. Schneider is our leading forward for tackles along with Mini....and in his last year at the Swans laid 74 tackles. While many thought Schneider was just gain for his goal scoring abilities the bigger reason was that he could supply the complete package including applying forward pressure... facet we sorely lacked after Hamill went down.

McQualter is player that Lyon has turn arround...from a lazy player into a very disciplined unit that like Schneider is a tackling machine. Mini laid over 40 tackles last year and has improved again this year.
Milne is now much improved as well.


Defence I am not talking defence as in the back 6...I am talking about how the WHOLE team plays when the opposition has the ball. In this we have vastly improved and in particular against good opposition.


Two years,,, well 1.5 actually as we really stepped up last year mid-season. We have won something like 25 out of the last 27.

But yes Lyon inherited a team of downhill skiers with poor work ethic who rarely ever got anywhere near playing 4 quarters of football. When they clicked they could look very good...but too often through individual play. 2005 win was great...but it did take Banger playing probably his best game ever with 3 golas to inspire the team across the line.

It took Lyon a while to turn many of them around...

Roos' impassioned B+F speech calling for ALL the players to get on the bus feel on many deaf ears.


So look at all the KPI's and you see all being addressed and improved upon.

and lets not forget Lyon's fronting of Butterrs and the Board demanding that the player conditioning issues be addressed....which led to Ross Smith investigating the matter and then making recommendations on how to rectify it. Lyon's connection with Misson and knowledge of the swan's processes probably assisted as well.

[saintsRrising]

and a board he didn't get along with..

Perhaps he would have been wise to have worked on this?

[saint75]

No my posts of support were because IMO Ross was doing those things that needed to be done to develop St KFC into successful club.

Like what, exactly? For Lyon's first two years here we didn't improve much. Our tackling was about the same. Our forward fifty tackling was about the same. We had trouble scoring and trouble winning against the top sides. We suffered a lot of injuries over Lyon's first two years. It seems to me that our problems at the end of last year were very similar to those at the end of 2006.

You keep saying that Lyon had to teach the team to play defence, but he took over a team that was third in points conceded and fifth in tackling. We finished fifth in points conceded and sixth in tackling in 08, which was an improvement on Lyon's first year. Our forward pressure wasn't any better in Lyon's first two years. It clearly wasn't a bad defence when Lyon took over. It's better now, but was it last year? I think that's very questionable.

I agree with plugger. You're quick to correct anyone who offers GT any kind of credit. Any praise you offer him is usually tempered by a disproportionate amount of criticism. He operated with an underfunded footy department, a makeshift recruiting department and a board he didn't get along with. All up I think he did a pretty good job as a coach. He did less well in other areas, but on field team was pretty good. We're obviously better off now. Given Lyon's first two years, I don't think that was a given.

Just like to correct you on a couple of things:

1) The board he didn't get along with was his own fault but I won't delve into that mess again

2) Grant Thomas had all the money he wanted thrown at him in the last couple of years at the helm

3) The fitness team was selected by Grant Thomas.

A lot (not all) of the injuries sustained in the last 2 years were hangovers from Grants era and the fitness regime he had in place. As any person with half an idea would know that a fitness regime takes a good 12-18 months before you start to reap the rewards. Have a look at the boys now......

Do you honestly believe that our team 'miraculously' improved over night and that Ross implemented nothing in the last 2 years? So to take it a step further, he waved his magic wand in the pre season and the boys have come out fitter, stronger and harder? You are kidding yourself aren't you?

As I mentioned previously in this thread, Thommo and Butterss did an amazing job for the club in the first 3 years. After that it started to slide downhill. Thommo did not have the ability to take the team any further. No disrespect intended, just fact. What he did achieve in those first 3 years was fantastic, make no mistake. However, it is time to move on and embrace the coach we have. This continual mud slinging backwards and forwards by disgruntled Thommo supporters and Lyons supporters is ridiculous. Thommo is ancient history. Lyon is the future.

[barks4eva]

i also reckon that 'going hard , when it's their turn ' ...as a needed cultural and attitudinal change , deserves to be recognised as well

thanx grant

u flog

[vacuous space]

So look at all the KPI's and you see all being addressed and improved upon.

Show me one area we noticably improved between 06 and 08. Our forward 50 tackling went from 15th in 06 to 15th in 08. Our team defence allowed the 3rd least i50s in 06 and the 3rd least points against. We scored 52 more points last year while allowing 71 more. We had a great run at the end of 06 and a great run at the end of 08. We got thumped by Adelaide and West Coast in 06 and got thumped by Geelong and Hawthorn in 08. I don't see a lot of improvement there.

I see a lot of improvement now. I also see a restructured coaching staff, a restructured forward line, a rolling zone defence and a different approach to games. There's been a restructure in the recruiting department, the football department and a new board has come in with the promise to spend more money. It's a totally different club than when GT was fired. The only constant is a number of guys on the playing list.

14 of the players who take the field tomorrow played under GT. I don't think a single one of them is worse for the experience. GT deserves credit for turning the team into a winner and players with great potential into great players. I don't see any reason to bring up the rookie list, his trade record and his rucks whenever his name comes up. It just seems petty to me. Particularly when we're 13-0.

[asiu]

hey u turd burgler


u need to grow a dick as well

both u and reincarnated can then sit by the river and learn how to pull it




kisses and hugs , u big fairy



mods,

beekay the second has abused me

'flog' infers that i abuse myself

i practice the fine art of self love only


please discipline the pair of teabaggers.....thanx in advance

[reincarnated]

hey u turd burgler


u need to grow a dick as well

both u and reincarnated can then sit by the river and learn how to pull it




kisses and hugs , u big fairy

Reincarnated wonders if it makes a big man to abuse people through penis a wanking jokes and if so Reincarnated has been going about this all wrong

[bigcarl]

grant thomas said: "It is all set up for a classic. Hopefully St Kilda doesn't go into its shell and just negates Geelong."

this would have been my fear about this match during the first two seasons of ross's reign. hopefully today will show where we have improved as a club.

[asiu]

Reincarnated has been going about this all wrong

10 points to teabag2

[carnasaints55]

I still really respect GT and think this is a good article. Very different coach from Ross but both very important to the development of this team. We wouldn't be 13-0 without either of them.

I think GT does a good job of making this point in the article (obviously understating his contribution because that could be potentially mistaken).

[reincarnated]

Reincarnated has been going about this all wrong

10 points to teabag2

Reincarnated will see you at the game

[asiu]

looking forward to it

isle 36 ...level 1

get someone to point me out









should i be scared st pat ?

[matrix]

someone get some photos.......

[saintsRrising]

So look at all the KPI's and you see all being addressed and improved upon.

Show me one area we noticably improved between 06 and 08.

1/ soft tissue injuries
2/ trades
3/ relationship with VFL affiliate
4/ development of rookies
5/ internal club relationships

Did you not see the second half of 2008???

After that the majority of players at last got on board and started playing team ffotball the way that the Coach wanted it.

Our forward 50 tackling went from 15th in 06 to 15th in 08. Our team defence allowed the 3rd least i50s in 06 and the 3rd least points against. We scored 52 more points last year while allowing 71 more. We had a great run at the end of 06 and a great run at the end of 08. We got thumped by Adelaide and West Coast in 06 and got thumped by Geelong and Hawthorn in 08. I don't see a lot of improvement there.

I see a lot of improvement now. I also see a restructured coaching staff, a restructured forward line, a rolling zone defence and a different approach to games. There's been a restructure in the recruiting department, the football department and a new board has come in with the promise to spend more money. It's a totally different club than when GT was fired. The only constant is a number of guys on the playing list.

14 of the players who take the field tomorrow played under GT. I don't think a single one of them is worse for the experience. GT deserves credit for turning the team into a winner and players with great potential into great players. I don't see any reason to bring up the rookie list, his trade record and his rucks whenever his name comes up. It just seems petty to me. Particularly when we're 13-0.

You know Vacuous....you and others such as Plugger 66 often seem to reinterpret what I write.

I don't rate GT as crap coach..that "honour" goes to the like of Watson.

However I only rate him as an average AFL coach...and if you are content to flit around from 4th to 12 that then that is fine.

I personally desire the Saints to be the best team in the competition...and part of that is to have a truly elite coach.



GT to me however is not an elite coach...never was and never will be.

This is the same man who on TV this year came out and indicated that Lyon did not have what it took to be a head coach...and that GT knew this because he GT played with him.


Why do you expect Lyon to have instantly been able to rectify all of the Saints problems in one pre-season?


Why would you expect Lyon to have a 100% understanding of everything before he arrived...and for this to all be rectified imediately by a clicking of the fingers.

1/ A team's list is obviously impossible to completely work over in one trade period...and more so when one gets the job after the trade period has started.

BUT look at what has occurred over the three periods and you see continued structured improvement.

Whereas look at the large number of did trades that GT made. Line the up..look at the cost i trades...and then the value gained. Asa group it is dismal.

Even if someone such as J Watts had not got injured..it was madness to have traded for him..for where could he play? You cannot have a forward line of Roo, Kosi and Watts...for Watts was a lesser version of Kosi...and Kosi was never a ruckman. Watts was purely a forward.

IMO IF GT had stayed we would bea much worse position...and most likely outside the 8.

GT was a poor trader (this is FACT...just look at all the trades)...and so our list would have to now be significantly worse than what it is.

GT resisted the modern way to run a football department and refused to expand it by the hiring of Drain etc. His massive ego was that his way was best...and he insisted taking responsibility in areas that he was poor in. Even GT acknowledges that this was a huge problem.. BUT the FACT is that under GT's reign it was poor and that none of his efforts could rectify it. Most likely under GT the trend would have continued for us to under-achieve other AFL Clubs despite the extra cash.



GOOD RELATIONS: Cash has nothing to do with this. It gets back to the individual. FACT is there was bad blood and fractured working relationships between GT and:
* The Board
* Our VFL Affiliate
* a number of players

This hurt the Saints.

Look at GT's employment record before and since. The same pattern of bad blood is there. So what is the common factor? I think the answer is obvious.

How can you hope fo ra great club when everyone is walking as on eggshells?

So again as a KPI..Lyon has actively worked to improve our relationship with our VFL affiliates.


So for me when you look broadly and deeply GT was only an average coach who oversaw a poor trading record and who demanded responsibility for player conditioning to our detriment. add to this the bad bllod with so many others and lack of development of rookies and you get an unsatisfacory mark wuth the need to move on to someone better.

Look at Lyon broadly and deeply and you see improvement in virtually every area. The only black mark was that early on that Lyon was clearly not engaging some of our players who were not committing. Post dropping of Dal and Milne this has been rectified.

[plugger66]

I will ask you again how did he get coach of the year if he was an average coach and how the hell did an average coach help us win a game against Adelaide with all those injuries we had that year. Most pundits still say injuires ccost us a flag in 2005 and the ones that say it arent GT fans. He did well for an average coach.

[saintsRrising]

I will ask you again how did he get coach of the year
.

Awarded by whom?

Normally that goes to the Premiership Coach???
Or was this some journos award..???
What does such an award mean???

What about GT's Awards for Trader of the Year? Surely he must have wracked those up 5 years running?

if he was an average coach and how the hell did an average coach help us win a game against Adelaide with all those injuries we had that year. Most pundits still say injuires ccost us a flag in 2005 and the ones that say it arent GT fans. He did well for an average coach.

Please detail his amazing coacihng moves on the night???

I saw Banger playing a blinder dragging his team-mates to vistory. Please details all the great coaching moves.

Injuries: You seem BLIND to GT in his expanded role having demanded responosibility from the Board for it. Therefore he has to wear the blame for our poor perforamnce in player conditioning and injury management. We had ots of soft tissue injuries,,,and GT was the one who wanted to take it on to our great misfortune.

Maybe he should have stuck to just coaching

GT was an average coach who underperformed with a great list.

Should have had a flag with that list (and with the relatively weak teams that one would have been playing in those years....with Lions past their best, PA past their best....)


QUESTION:

If someone drives a Ferrari, but keeps crashing it....is he a great driver just because he is driving a great car?

[plugger66]

I will ask you again how did he get coach of the year
.

Awarded by whom?

Normally that goes to the Premiership Coach???
Or was this some journos award..???
What does such an award mean???

What about GT's Awards for Trader of the Year? Surely he must have wracked those up 5 years running?

if he was an average coach and how the hell did an average coach help us win a game against Adelaide with all those injuries we had that year. Most pundits still say injuires ccost us a flag in 2005 and the ones that say it arent GT fans. He did well for an average coach.

Please detail his amazing coacihng moves on the night???

I saw Banger playing a blinder dragging his team-mates to vistory. Please details all the great coaching moves.

Injuries: You seem BLIND to GT in his expanded role having demanded responosibility from the Board for it. Therefore he has to wear the blame for our poor perforamnce in player conditioning and injury management. We had ots of soft tissue injuries,,,and GT was the one who wanted to take it on to our great misfortune.

Maybe he should have stuck to just coaching

GT was an average coach who underperformed with a great list.

Should have had a flag with that list (and with the relatively weak teams that one would have been playing in those years....with Lions past their best, PA past their best....)


QUESTION:

If someone drives a Ferrari, but keeps crashing it....is he a great driver just because he is driving a great car?

So you answer questions with questions. I give up. I think GT could coach and injuries probably cost us a flag. You think he was average. Its over now he is gone so lets forget it.