Gram

[skeptic]

WOW

I really thought he had a shocking game... clearly WOG for the Saints... much worse than Raph who did some nice things.

He's playing as pure an outside player as you can get

on 2-3 occassions on sat night, he sat 5m away from the contest waiting for his team mate to win the ball and pass it 2 him and we didn't.

Now one can argue that a team needs outside receivers with pace however, they're no good if they can't kick the ball.

Gram's disposal is TERRIBLE!!!! He continually turns it over or bombs it to the opposition
What good is a reciever that can't kick!?

He has fallen into some really bad habits IMO and really needs to be dropped until he starts doing the basics properly... working hard and making good choices.

He's a much better player than he's playing atm...
Drop him ala Milne and Dal last season

[Thinline]

I hate to say it because on song I think he's an incredible asset but I tend to agree. There's an ethos within the group of being balls and all ruthless at the pill and I just do't see Gram willing enough to throw himself in front of a truck for his team.

Naturally, not all players are cut out for it, but when it's your turn to go, you need to go. Would he go ATM?

I'm not sure he would...

But then maybe he;s instructed to hang back a bit for whatever reason...

I dunno...

[DWOODROW]

Time to give Armitage a go. He will put his head where others won't.

[kaos theory]

Drop him. We do not require players who run and carry, have pace and kick it long. Those types must go for us to succeed.

[Winmar7Fan]

I thought he had a shocking game. Just seemed to stand back and not get in the game at all. Looked disinterested.

Disinterested, or petulant? Remember he only got called up because Milne was injured, the guy needs to swallow his pride and be prepared to prove everyone wrong.

No, I don't think that's it. If fact, as much as it counts for anything, he would bleed for a St Kilda win as much as any Saints player because, like us, and unlike almost all of his team mates, he was a mad passionate Saints supporter when he was a child and teenager. After a brief interlude in Brisbane, he got his boyhood wish, to play for the Saints.

But barracking is not playing - as we all know too well!

Just where genes end and desire starts is going to be one of those imponderables forever and a day. My view is that desire allows you to improve some percentage points on nature, but not much. If all of our players were blessed with the skills and desire of Robert Harvey, well we would have won flags aplenty over the years. It appears to me that the best "lifter" for any player is his team mates, but it's never forever, rather short periods. Timing can be everything in this regard, especially as the players who need to lift have to do it at roughly the same time.

He is definitely hard to catch once he has the ball (like Aussie). We are probably just going to have to accept that he'll be an average chaser and tackler at best. He has done it a couple of times this year, so we (and he) knows it can be done. To be truthful, it doesn't seem at all natural to him and I always fear some injury is imminent to him with any over exertion in this regard. Perhaps he does too.

Spot on I see it the same. I love this kid, ok he lacks aggression and shanks a lot of kicks but is always in the play and runs the ball out of danger in defence and also drives the ball deep into attack as well.

Even though he mucks up some disposals and isn't a hard crunching player I'm sure opposition teams still see him as quite damaging.

I hope no one criticising him here are strong defenders of Blake,Gwilt and Raph.

[St DAC]

Time to give Armitage a go. He will put his head where others won't.

As evidenced by his scintillating form in the 2's? ... Armo, like all players, should play seniors when he earns it. And yes he's a hard nut. But no harder than Lenny, or Mini, or any of a dozen more.

It wasn't Grammy's best ever game, but it was servicable. He's a vital link player, and required in the team I'd have thought.

Why all the angst about changing a winning team? 10/0 ain't too bad ... doesn't look broke to me.

[St Fidelius]

I hope no one criticising him here are strong defenders of Blake,Gwilt and Raph.

Well the three players you have mentioned have a better disposal efficiency than Gram.

Gram 66%

Gwilt 71%

Clarke 75%

Blake 90%

[Winmar7Fan]

I hope no one criticising him here are strong defenders of Blake,Gwilt and Raph.

Well the three players you have mentioned have a better disposal efficiency than Gram.

Gram 66%

Gwilt 71%

Clarke 75%

Blake 90%

Here's these stats again. What's that based on?

Grams played more games than most of these guys and gets twice as many posessions. I'm sure theres a million other stats like inside 50's and bounces and whatever else Gram is ahead with.

[St Fidelius]

I hope no one criticising him here are strong defenders of Blake,Gwilt and Raph.

Well the three players you have mentioned have a better disposal efficiency than Gram.

Gram 66%

Gwilt 71%

Clarke 75%

Blake 90%

Here's these stats again. What's that based on?

Grams played more games than most of these guys and gets twice as many posessions. I'm sure theres a million other stats like inside 50's and bounces and whatever else Gram is ahead with.

Hey all I'm stating is that Gram's kicking is poor FFS

You seem to be the one that started to make a comparison to the three players you mentioned and all I am saying that the three of them have a better disposal efficiency rate than Gram this year.

Now you are quoting some hypothetical stat out of your ar$e by stating that Gram has twice as many possessions.

[bigcarl]

Drop him. We do not require players who run and carry, have pace and kick it long. Those types must go for us to succeed.

well said, plugger, even though sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

[Winmar7Fan]

I hope no one criticising him here are strong defenders of Blake,Gwilt and Raph.

Well the three players you have mentioned have a better disposal efficiency than Gram.

Gram 66%

Gwilt 71%

Clarke 75%

Blake 90%

Here's these stats again. What's that based on?

Grams played more games than most of these guys and gets twice as many posessions. I'm sure theres a million other stats like inside 50's and bounces and whatever else Gram is ahead with.

Hey all I'm stating is that Gram's kicking is poor FFS

You seem to be the one that started to make a comparison to the three players you mentioned and all I am saying that the three of them have a better disposal efficiency rate than Gram this year.

Now you are quoting some hypothetical stat out of your ar$e by stating that Gram has twice as many possessions.

What I'm stating is someone like any of those three say Blake for instance that only gets 6 kicks is going to have a higher efficiency.

Ok I'll pump Blake up with these misleading stats and mention he had a higher efficiency rate than Lenny Hayes on Saturday because five of his 35 possessions missed targets.

[St Fidelius]

What I'm stating is someone like any of those three say Blake for instance that only gets 6 kicks is going to have a higher efficiency.

Ok I'll pump Blake up with these misleading stats and mention he had a higher efficiency rate than Lenny Hayes on Saturday because five of his 35 possessions missed targets.

There you go again picking stats out of your ar$e...

Blake does not get 6 kicks a game.

Blake THIS YEAR averages 17 disposals a match at 90% effectiveness

[Winmar7Fan]

I hope no one criticising him here are strong defenders of Blake,Gwilt and Raph.

Well the three players you have mentioned have a better disposal efficiency than Gram.

Gram 66%

Gwilt 71%

Clarke 75%

Blake 90%

Here's these stats again. What's that based on?

Grams played more games than most of these guys and gets twice as many posessions. I'm sure theres a million other stats like inside 50's and bounces and whatever else Gram is ahead with.

Hey all I'm stating is that Gram's kicking is poor FFS

You seem to be the one that started to make a comparison to the three players you mentioned and all I am saying that the three of them have a better disposal efficiency rate than Gram this year.

Now you are quoting some hypothetical stat out of your ar$e by stating that Gram has twice as many possessions.

What I'm stating is someone like any of those three say Blake for instance that only gets 6 kicks is going to have a higher efficiency.

Ok I'll pump Blake up with these misleading stats and mention he had a higher efficiency rate than Lenny Hayes on Saturday because five of his 35 possessions missed targets.

There you go again picking stats out of your ar$e...

Blake does not get 6 kicks a game.

Blake THIS YEAR averages 17 disposals a match at 90% effectiveness

Sorry to get your critical stats incorrect I'm sure If you break down the kicks and hand balls I wouldn't be that far out but to your way of thinking even if I'm 1 kick out, that over 10 games currently is another 10. Over a season works out that I'm on average out by 22 kicks.

So going by the stats he's a more effective player than just about all of them is that right or am I still just picking stats out of my ar$e?

[St Fidelius]

Just why do you think the stats are misleading???

You were the one that mentioned three players and I have defended those three in saying they all have a better disposal efficiency than Gram.

That's all I was stating, and I wasn't pulling this stats out of my ar$e like you seem to have done.

Just why is that misleading???


Another thing of note, in another player you mentioned...

R Clarke averages 15 disposals a game at 75% effectiveness and spends just 62% of his game time on the ground

Gram averages 21 disposals a game at 66% effectiveness and spends 89% of his game time on the ground

Now is that misleading???

Remember, you were the one that mentioned those three players...

[St Fidelius]

Sorry to get your critical stats incorrect I'm sure If you break down the kicks and hand balls I wouldn't be that far out but to your way of thinking even if I'm 1 kick out, that over 10 games currently is another 10. Over a season works out that I'm on average out by 22 kicks.

So going by the stats he's a more effective player than just about all of them is that right or am I still just picking stats out of my ar$e?

Pull your head in FFS

You were the one that mentioned three other players and I am just defending them on Champion Data stats and not the make believe stats that's up your ar$e.

Obviously you are another Blake, Gwilt and Clarke basher and for a person that hates stats you seem to quote some that are incorrect

Blake average 6 disposals compared to 17 for starters

[bergholt]

Blake average 6 disposals compared to 17 for starters

he said 6 kicks, actually. you said 17 disposals. completely different things.

he's averaging 9.3 kicks and 7.6 handballs for his 16.9 disposals.

gram's averaging 12.8 kicks and 8.2 handballs for his 21.0 disposals.

that's 38% more kicks for gram.

no idea what either of you are actually trying to prove, though.

[St Fidelius]

Blake average 6 disposals compared to 17 for starters

he said 6 kicks, actually. you said 17 disposals. completely different things.

he's averaging 9.3 kicks and 7.6 handballs for his 16.9 disposals.

gram's averaging 12.8 kicks and 8.2 handballs for his 21.0 disposals.

that's 38% more kicks for gram.

no idea what either of you are actually trying to prove, though.

All I started to say is that this year Grams disposal effectiveness have been down...

I was not into comparing him to others until Winmar7Fan mentioned those three players...

To me it was not about kicks, but about Grams disposals ...

Which this season have been poor compared to the players that Winmar7Fan has mentioned

[perfectionist]

Watched the replay this arvo. His game was OK.

[Winmar7Fan]

Blake average 6 disposals compared to 17 for starters

he said 6 kicks, actually. you said 17 disposals. completely different things.

he's averaging 9.3 kicks and 7.6 handballs for his 16.9 disposals.

gram's averaging 12.8 kicks and 8.2 handballs for his 21.0 disposals.

that's 38% more kicks for gram.

no idea what either of you are actually trying to prove, though.

All I started to say is that this year Grams disposal effectiveness have been down...

I was not into comparing him to others until Winmar7Fan mentioned those three players...

To me it was not about kicks, but about Grams disposals ...

Which this season have been poor compared to the players that Winmar7Fan has mentioned

I just made a point in this thread that I'd find it odd that whoever has been defending Blake, Gwilt and Clarke would be criticising Gram.

Then I get this Stats junkie throw at me what in reality is a reflection of lack of possession efficiency (in other words the less you get the ball the less mistakes you make) used to show how much more effective these bottom players are than Gram (and all the rest of the team for that matter).

What's not mentioned is that these stats are made up from other stats. Like how many of Blake's effective rating is from safe defensive little 15 meter passes across ground and backwards under no pressure with a player standing on the mark to free team mates leading into space?

Compared to Gram taking on the Opposition running 20 - 30 meters and kicking another 50 taking the ball from defense deep into attack?

Or how many of these disposals from each are from free kicks and things like that?


Please don't disappoint me and say you have these stats recorded somewhere?

[vacuous space]

Then I get this Stats junkie throw at me what in reality is a reflection of lack of possession efficiency (in other words the less you get the ball the less mistakes you make) used to show how much more effective these bottom players are than Gram (and all the rest of the team for that matter).

Disposal efficeny is a percentage stat. It doesn't favour a guy who gets less possessions.

21 disposals a game at 66% efficency is 14 effective possessions a game.

17 disposals a game at 90% efficency is 15.3 effective possessions per game.

It's not rocket surgery.

[St Fidelius]

Blake average 6 disposals compared to 17 for starters

he said 6 kicks, actually. you said 17 disposals. completely different things.

he's averaging 9.3 kicks and 7.6 handballs for his 16.9 disposals.

gram's averaging 12.8 kicks and 8.2 handballs for his 21.0 disposals.

that's 38% more kicks for gram.

no idea what either of you are actually trying to prove, though.

All I started to say is that this year Grams disposal effectiveness have been down...

I was not into comparing him to others until Winmar7Fan mentioned those three players...

To me it was not about kicks, but about Grams disposals ...

Which this season have been poor compared to the players that Winmar7Fan has mentioned

I just made a point in this thread that I'd find it odd that whoever has been defending Blake, Gwilt and Clarke would be criticising Gram.

Then I get this Stats junkie throw at me what in reality is a reflection of lack of possession efficiency (in other words the less you get the ball the less mistakes you make) used to show how much more effective these bottom players are than Gram (and all the rest of the team for that matter).

What's not mentioned is that these stats are made up from other stats. Like how many of Blake's effective rating is from safe defensive little 15 meter passes across ground and backwards under no pressure with a player standing on the mark to free team mates leading into space?

Compared to Gram taking on the Opposition running 20 - 30 meters and kicking another 50 taking the ball from defense deep into attack?

Or how many of these disposals from each are from free kicks and things like that?


Please don't disappoint me and say you have these stats recorded somewhere?

It's not a "stats junkie" thrown at you FFS...

All am am saying and I repeat is that Gram's disposal is poor this season.....

Do you understand that???

You mentioned three players, and so be it those three players have a better disposal rate...

Do you understand that Gram's disposals are poorer???

Forget about time on ground, I think that maybe too hard for you to understand...

Again, Gram's disposals efficiency is down and needs to be addressed

[Winmar7Fan]

Then I get this Stats junkie throw at me what in reality is a reflection of lack of possession efficiency (in other words the less you get the ball the less mistakes you make) used to show how much more effective these bottom players are than Gram (and all the rest of the team for that matter).

Disposal efficeny is a percentage stat. It doesn't favour a guy who gets less possessions.

21 disposals a game at 66% efficency is 14 effective possessions a game.

17 disposals a game at 90% efficency is 15.3 effective possessions per game.

It's not rocket surgery.

I asked for that didn't I ?

[Winmar7Fan]

Blake average 6 disposals compared to 17 for starters

he said 6 kicks, actually. you said 17 disposals. completely different things.

he's averaging 9.3 kicks and 7.6 handballs for his 16.9 disposals.

gram's averaging 12.8 kicks and 8.2 handballs for his 21.0 disposals.

that's 38% more kicks for gram.

no idea what either of you are actually trying to prove, though.

All I started to say is that this year Grams disposal effectiveness have been down...

I was not into comparing him to others until Winmar7Fan mentioned those three players...

To me it was not about kicks, but about Grams disposals ...

Which this season have been poor compared to the players that Winmar7Fan has mentioned

I just made a point in this thread that I'd find it odd that whoever has been defending Blake, Gwilt and Clarke would be criticising Gram.

Then I get this Stats junkie throw at me what in reality is a reflection of lack of possession efficiency (in other words the less you get the ball the less mistakes you make) used to show how much more effective these bottom players are than Gram (and all the rest of the team for that matter).

What's not mentioned is that these stats are made up from other stats. Like how many of Blake's effective rating is from safe defensive little 15 meter passes across ground and backwards under no pressure with a player standing on the mark to free team mates leading into space?

Compared to Gram taking on the Opposition running 20 - 30 meters and kicking another 50 taking the ball from defense deep into attack?

Or how many of these disposals from each are from free kicks and things like that?


Please don't disappoint me and say you have these stats recorded somewhere?

It's not a "stats junkie" thrown at you FFS...

All am am saying and I repeat is that Gram's disposal is poor this season.....

Do you understand that???

You mentioned three players, and so be it those three players have a better disposal rate...

Do you understand that Gram's disposals are poorer???

Forget about time on ground, I think that maybe too hard for you to understand...

Again, Gram's disposals efficiency is down and needs to be addressed

Yes if you want to be black and white about it but it's not. As I will ask you again (and I agree his disposal and efficiency rate is poorer) is a player under pressure running at full steam kicking to 40 - 50 metre targets going to find accuracy more difficult.

Compared to a defensive style slow backman like Blake who likes to hold up play looking for a safe option to lay off a 15 meter chip?

I'm under the belief that the more inside 50s you get the more opportunities to kick goals. I don't know the answer to this but are all these long kicks sending the ball deep into attack from defence from Gram totally unproductive?

They may not hit targets and miss goals but are they ALL rebounding turnovers that dramatically hurt us? Or are any of them creating pressure on opposition defence that end up a goal a bit later from another player simply because the ball was sent up there 8 possessions earlier from a big ugly shank and forgotten?

[Teflon]

His pace disappears when he has to chase.

Austinn Jones Syndrome - Cannot be caught. Cannot catch.

I find this hard to say....you are right.

[Teflon]

My only concern against Gram is how he will handle the physicality a Geelong dishes up?