ARMO

[saintjake]

since last one went off track,
will armo get to play?
atm i see him being the player that will get poached by the gold coast.
reasons are he comes from up there,
cant get a game.
and lots of cash up there.

thoughts?

[Statsman]

The concern for Armitage is that Ross Lyon was crying out for midfield depth, yet he chose to recruit Ray and move Gram and Goodard further up the ground rather than promote Armitage into the team. The opportunity has been there, but he hasn't seized it as yet. However he's only been in the AFL program for a couple of years and still has plenty of upside. If he wants it bad enough, and is willing to put in the hard yards, he can make it. If not, he may well we one of the also-rans that we leave dangling out of contract for the Gold Coast to take off our hands. By 2011 we may be happy to lose him for a 3rd round pick if he hasn't come good by then.

[plugger66]

The concern for Armitage is that Ross Lyon was crying out for midfield depth, yet he chose to recruit Ray and move Gram and Goodard further up the ground rather than promote Armitage into the team. The opportunity has been there, but he hasn't seized it as yet. However he's only been in the AFL program for a couple of years and still has plenty of upside. If he wants it bad enough, and is willing to put in the hard yards, he can make it. If not, he may well we one of the also-rans that we leave dangling out of contract for the Gold Coast to take off our hands. By 2011 we may be happy to lose him for a 3rd round pick if he hasn't come good by then.

If he hasnt come good by then he probably will not be wanted by any club. This is his third year. Needs to start at least being a very good VFL player. That is the minimum required.

[perfectionist]

...If he hasnt come good by then he probably will not be wanted by any club. This is his third year. Needs to start at least being a very good VFL player. That is the minimum required.

Yep, one of the real tricks in football (and life in general for that matter) is to work out what you can do, what you can't do and what you might be able to do. Sportspeople, in particular, are more driven to ensure that they achieve 100% capacity than most. Unfortunately, 100% capacity does not guarantee success. For example, if you can't be PM then you can be the best Treasurer. OK, perhaps that's not the best example, but you know what I mean.

Anyway, it brings me to my illustrious football career. Basically, I was no good. But, I loved the game. I had no idea where the game was going on the ground, but I soon realised that other more gifted players did. Simple solution, offer to be a tag on their best player and follow them around and then at the opportune moment, position myself between them and the ball and milk a free. Worked a treat, for a time. My back suffered the consequences. So, it was off to umpiring school.

Which brings me back to Mr Armitage. If he wants to avoid umpiring school, then he needs to pick his place in the football world. Am I a Judd ? (no). Am I a Bartel ? (no) Am I a Kane Cornes? (perhaps) Etc. Once done, then he sets his path. Of course, this is easy to say for someone (like me) of advanced years. For a 20yo footballer, with hormones still running everywhere, it's not so easy and I, for one, am not willing to be too judgemental.

Best wishes to him for his future.

[saintsRrising]

The concern for Armitage is that Ross Lyon was crying out for midfield depth, yet he chose to recruit Ray and move Gram and Goodard further up the ground rather than promote Armitage .

I think the problem for Armitage is rather that Mini has got his spot, and has pushed past Armo because Mini has been prepared to work harder and do exactly the role the coach wants..

There is a lesson in that for Armo...for Mini too was wayward for a bit..playing more as he wanted...rather than as the coach wanted.

Geary too has pushed up...and like Armo has that knack of knowing how to kicka goal.

Ray and Gram are both outside runners. BJ is mainly being used back...and as an impact player around the ground. So I don't think Armo is at present threatening any of their spots.

[perfectionist]

...The concern for Armitage is that Ross Lyon was I think the problem for Armitage is rather that Mini has got his spot, and has pushed past Armo because Mini has been prepared to work harder and do exactly the role the coach wants...There is a lesson in that for Armo...for Mini too was wayward for a bit..playing more as he wanted...rather than as the coach wanted.

Geary too has pushed up...and like Armo has that knack of knowing how to kicka goal.

Ray and Gram are both outside runners. BJ is mainly being used back...and as an impact player around the ground. So I don't think Armo is at present threatening any of their spots.

All fair comment, but it points to the direction for him. He, so far, has been a one sided slow learner. What happens now is largely up to him. What advice he accepts and how he reacts to it. Best wishes to him.

[Foz]

slow learner in mind and what is required given what has been said by his teammates.

However we all saw a big change to his body this pre-season though, so we looked forward to his output this year. I still think he has a huge role at the Saints. Forget Gold Coast, Roo and Gilbo were off there weren't they ?

Armo is the coverage for Luke Ball who I think is hampered. Armo kicked 9 goals from 11 games, had over 3 tackles a game. Yes we did recruit Farren Ray for more outside run but that was a given. The engine was pretty well stoked with Lenny & Bally.

If its a long tough season and if Bally isn't 100% which no-one wants to consider, Armo's right in the mix.

[Milton66]

The concern for Armitage is that Ross Lyon was crying out for midfield depth, yet he chose to recruit Ray and move Gram and Goodard further up the ground rather than promote Armitage .

I think the problem for Armitage is rather that Mini has got his spot, and has pushed past Armo because Mini has been prepared to work harder and do exactly the role the coach wants..

There is a lesson in that for Armo...for Mini too was wayward for a bit..playing more as he wanted...rather than as the coach wanted.

Geary too has pushed up...and like Armo has that knack of knowing how to kicka goal.

Ray and Gram are both outside runners. BJ is mainly being used back...and as an impact player around the ground. So I don't think Armo is at present threatening any of their spots.

If what you say is correct, then the boy has only himself to blame. His timing is way out. He has decided to get serious just as the team has lifted a notch, and been left behind. Whereas the same attitude last year would have seen him cement a spot. maybe.

[Goose is king]

Armo is really only one midfield injury away from getting a game (unless they go for Eddy first). It would be crazy to think that our midfield wont have an injury all season. When he gets his chance, and he will, he will know he needs to make the most of it.

[saintsRrising]

Armo is really only one midfield injury away from getting a game (unless they go for Eddy first). It would be crazy to think that our midfield wont have an injury all season. When he gets his chance, and he will, he will know he needs to make the most of it.

Mini, Ball and Hayze....an injury to them should see Armo in...

If it is one of the runners.....then Raph or Eddy may be preferred.

How good is our depth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also Armo is still young.

[sainter35]

I think we're being a little premature in predicting his future in here.

He received a hamstring injury in the final training session before the Lions NAB Cup game. Then upon his return in the Richmond practice game re-injured the hamstring. Since then he had played 6 or 7 straight until the weekend where he was our spare player and as such couldn't get play against Werribee.

Had he not been injured in the pre-season he could have been in the team round 1 and now he's being forced to wait like everybody else because of our great start to the season.

His time will come.

[hotdish]

Armo's season was set back when he did his hammie(?) early in the year. Took a while to get back, and to get form/fitness down pat.

Has played 5 VFL games and been in the best only twice - needs to improve his from and force his way into the team!

[bergholt]

he's still young.

i've posted this a million times, but let's make it a million and one. he's at the same point montagna was a couple of years into his career. he's shown some bits, but he's in and out of the side because he lacks consistency and hasn't taken the next step.

all he needs is for the penny to drop and for him to really learn what it takes at the top level. most players aren't goddard/selwood/rich, playing all games in their debut year. but armo's still young enough that there's a very good chance he'll turn into the very good player we all want him to be.

[bigcarl]

armo's still young enough that there's a very good chance he'll turn into the very good player we all want him to be.

exactly. it takes them a while to come on, witness bj.

in fact, rohan connolly in the age wrote a nice piece last week on the importance of patience when it comes to young players. bj featured prominently.

since the link doesn't appear to work, here is the whole
thing

ST KILDA'S clash with Essendon at Etihad Stadium tomorrow is a mouth-watering prospect on several levels.

Aside from the individual talent on display, there's a meeting of different game cultures, the questions surrounding how the Bombers' speed and run stand up against the Saints' frenzied defensive pressure.

There's strength up against dash, big power forwards like Nick Riewoldt and Matthew Lloyd surrounded by smart, ground-level goalkickers like Stephen Milne, Adam Schneider and Alwyn Davey.

But there's another significant element to this game, too, a common thread running through both teams of a quality in short supply in the modern era, but perhaps making something of a comeback. It's called patience, and it's something which is paying off for St Kilda and Essendon.

Instant gratification is all the rage when it comes to personnel in an age of shorter lists and salary caps. There's courage required by football clubs to persist with a player not delivering immediate returns.

But being able to see the bigger picture has its benefits. And they'll be all over the Docklands playing arena tomorrow. Most notably in the presence of gun St Kilda midfielder Brendon Goddard, a man for whom the tag of No.1 draft pick at times resembled a lead weight around his neck.

That title was bestowed in late 2002. Now, seven seasons and 120 games on, it sits fittingly on the CV of a player who has moved into the AFL elite. Goddard's exceptional ball use, now matched with prolific ball-winning ability, is a key plank of St Kilda's flag assault.

There have been several times the Saints could easily have been excused for hawking Goddard around the trade table, knowing the lucrative draft selections his off-loading would bring. They stuck fast, even after Goddard required a knee reconstruction early in 2007. The benefits of that longer-term thinking is now blindingly obvious.

But St Kilda's patience has also been notable, and successful, at the other end of its 22. Exhibits A and B, James Gwilt and Andrew McQualter.

Gwilt had lived largely off the credits of a sensational performance in a final against Adelaide in 2005, in only his second game of AFL football. McQualter was cut from the list at the end of 2007, then taken back as a rookie primarily because he had a year to go on his contract and the Saints had salary-cap issues.

Gwilt could have gone any time. McQualter's cards had been marked. Now both find themselves playing important roles in a team where depth is being seen as an asset rather than an Achilles heel.

At Essendon, there's been patience of another sort, with three players whose capacity to run and carry the ball has catapulted them to prominence in a team they were previously only a peripheral part.

In the case of Ricky Dyson, the patience has been about continuity, the lack of which had been the most notable aspect of his previous five seasons.

In those of Jason Winderlich and Courtenay Dempsey, it's been patience about chronic injuries, with Essendon determined not to let the frustration of players who spent far more time in the medical room than on the ground get the better of it.

"List management is an on-going thing, and you've got difficult decisions every year to make room for the guys you are going to draft," says Essendon assistant coach Gary O'Donnell. "Sometimes it might just come down to who is in contract and who's not."

But with pressure for results obvious, it helps to have an administration just as prepared to keep faith in its football department's judgements as that on-field brainstrust has been prepared to keep faith with its players' capacity to eventually produce.

"We're fairly lucky at this footy club, especially with a new coach, that there hasn't been that pressure," says O'Donnell. "The pressure on the list managers and the coach is to get the decision right in the end, not to call it now."

For St Kilda's Goddard, the pressures from outside Moorabbin were enough to deal with on their own. Former St Kilda champion and now club director, Nathan Burke, whose final season as a player was Goddard's first, said last year: "At times it got fairly intense, the fan forums, the radio callers, there was just a general sense that he wasn't living up to the No. 1 tag."

He sure is these days. Not that the Saints have ever wavered. They re-signed Goddard last year when he was still on the comeback trail from his knee reconstruction, reaped the benefits of a great second half in 2008, and cashed in this season. The midfielder's disposal average is running at 27, and he has racked up more than 30 touches in his past two outings.

If Chris Judd's form from the moment he joined West Coast in 2002 set an unfairly high level for all early draft picks, Goddard's later blossoming has brought a healthy touch of realism back to the assessments of recruiting. But like their higher-profile teammate, Gwilt and McQualter also laid the foundations for what they are achieving in 2009 with their efforts over the latter half of 2008.

Gwilt played the last eight games last year — three of them finals. "It probably showed us, and him, that he could play at the level," says St Kilda general manager of football and list management Matthew Drain.

Tomorrow's game will be Gwilt's 16th in a row — a significant achievement for someone who had managed only 18 over four seasons before that.

"He's got the flexibility to go back and forward, so he can play different roles, and he's got pace," says Drain.

That flexibility has, over the past fortnight, had him in attack, where, against the Western Bulldogs, he prevented Brian Lake filling the hole as is his wont, and against Collingwood relieved some of the match-up pressure on Riewoldt.

McQualter's capacity to return last year after getting the chop, building fitness and form with the Casey Scorpions, then being promoted to the senior list where he finished off the season strongly, has won him plenty of admiration from within.

"It showed lots of character," says Drain. "And the thing that has never been in doubt with Andrew is he's a very skilled, clever player."

He's since played run-with roles on the likes of Sam Mitchell, and at times, as a small forward. "It's all about hard work," says Drain. "And really, what we're looking for, no matter who it is, is an even contribution of working hard both with and without the ball."

It certainly helps a player who doesn't immediately deliver the goods to have a readily identifiable trait to keep the coaches hanging on. Why, for example, has Essendon persisted with Dyson and not, say, Kepler Bradley, picked at No. 6 in the 2003 draft, well before Dyson's No. 38?

Bradley, while a fine athlete, lacked an obvious position and pure football skills. Dyson has always been able to produce a penetrating left-foot kick as a calling card. "In this day and age, it's the blokes who use the ball pretty well (who) you persevere with the longest, I suppose," says O'Donnell.

It was coach Matthew Knights' enthusiasm for that kicking penetration and run which kept Dyson from taking a longer, more lucrative deal with Fremantle at the end of 2007.

And the promise of the sort of consistency of game time he had never been allowed previously. Under former coach Kevin Sheedy, Dyson was on and off the bench, in and out of the side. Under Knights, he's played virtually every game, save for a spell mid-season last year when he was sidelined after an appendix operation.

"He's still got a lot of work to do, but if his intensity is at the right level, he generally goes OK, playing inconsistently less and less," says O'Donnell. "He might be feeling a bit more comfortable, too, with quite a few of his age (23) now fairly entrenched in the side. He may have been overawed previously by a few older teammates."

With Winderlich and Dempsey, it's always been injuries which got in the way. Winderlich's back problems came close to ending his career. Dempsey's seven-straight games to start 2009 are the greatest output of his four seasons at senior level after a succession of hamstring injuries (five in one season) and last year, a broken leg.

"For him to play seven in a row is phenomenal compared to where he's been," says O'Donnell. "I think he's still playing slightly within himself, too. He hasn't really let rip as often as he could. When he does feel ultra-confident in his body, he's going to be a really good player for us."

Winderlich's personality, says O'Donnell, has been another factor in Essendon standing by him, despite having played just 63 of a possible 158 games since his debut in 2003. "He's got a fair bit of influence over the players. And he's footy smart, and can play anywhere."

Winderlich, Dyson and Dempsey are a trio helping to provide the most essential qualities that their coach is attempting to build a team around. None of them would be on show today had Essendon decided their time had run out.

For St Kilda, Goddard is the obvious poster boy, but Gwilt and McQualter further examples of the fine art of patience.

Tomorrow's clash is at the most basic level a match-up of a would-be AFL power and a precocious up-and-comer. But it's also a cogent example of the good that can come the way of teams prepared to wait.

[vacuous space]

he's at the same point montagna was a couple of years into his career.

While the stats may parallel, there's one major difference that really separates them: Montagna was trying to break into a developing side in his early years. Armo, at the moment, is trying to break into the form side of the competition. Right now the Saints 22 has 21 players who are older than he is. Geary is exactly one week younger. He's a natural midfielder in a team that has a stacked midfield.

I don't think he's doing too much wrong right now. It's not like he's out of the side for poor form. He just had some bad luck with injuries over preseason. He wasn't fit and ready when the side was formed in round one. Now he just has to wait for an opportunity.

[Thinline]

For St Kilda's Goddard, the pressures from outside Moorabbin were enough to deal with on their own. Former St Kilda champion and now club director, Nathan Burke, whose final season as a player was Goddard's first, said last year: "At times it got fairly intense, the fan forums, the radio callers, there was just a general sense that he wasn't living up to the No. 1 tag."

They're listening, people...

[DWOODROW]

And really, what we're looking for, no matter who it is, is an even contribution of working hard both with and without the ball."

Dave's off field behaviour came into question at the end of last year( Going Out). As the qoute above says it needs to be an even contribution on and off the field and Hopefully that has been adressed by him. While I am not worried about him and his absence in the senior side as I feel he will make it eventually, I think Dave needs to stand on his own two feet a bit more and take more responsibilty for himself.I have seen him in the doco's on the Saints and he is sitting around with the mid field group and with the team at team meeting's so it is not as though he has nothing to do with the team. As we have all( most) said the current playing group are doing everything that is asked of them and more and are really finding the results on the scoreboard at the end of the first 7 games to the season.

With the maturity of the current playing group and the knowledge of Ross Lyon being instilled into Dave and I assume other players with in the team I am sure he,when eventually given the chance will want to take it with both hands. He has been playing footy since he was 4 yrs old. I was there, I should know. He knows football and country football being the rough game it can be at the age of 15 was playing seniours and has the knowledge and attributes to be a courageous and talented footballer.
As I said before, Dave needs to stand on his own two feet and make the decision that he is going to live his life as an AFL footballer and attack it front on. I feel at the moment he may be waiting for it to happen. Mind you if he hadn't done his hammy, he may very well have been in the side.
My only complaint about the young fella. Not something he can be told. Something he has to work out for himself. Still love him to death though.

[DWOODROW]

slow learner in mind and what is required given what has been said by his teammates.

Foz, I'm interested to here where you got this information from. Do you have an insider or has this been raised before. What you are saying is his aptitude isn't as advanced as his teamamates according to his team mates. Is this correct?