Saints be praised - Herald Sun Article 20/3

[lefty]

Our approach has nothing to do with Sydney and again its a poor throwback to people saying "Ross Lyon is Paul Roos in drag" ...not true Im afraid.

Our approach is as you state - to use the rookie list and shrewed later picks (anyone suggesting the drafting of Stephen King as a failure needs their head examined). Why do this? - cause our draft picks and where we finish dictate this is the way we have to go.

The real question is: what early picks has Ross Lyon given up SO FAR and that has become a failure?

Not King, Gardiner, etc???...thats an interesting analysis to Grants model of "it was all John Beveridge....I wasnt even home at the time" (whoever buys that - and Plugger will - is in fairy land)... immediately I can recall Brooks/Watts as absolute monty's we lost early picks for???

I think you will find also through this approach - and the playing of Geary, Eddy, Jones, Armitage, Stevens, McEvoy etc that Lyon has introduced far more youth in his short time than in Grants last 2 years...hes had to.

As for Howard...I think you may also find he wasnt a Lyon selection if I recall correctly?

At the time from what I can recall GT had to get a ruckman as T.Knoble left end of 04? There's only so many players you can choose from, and unfortunately Brooks wasnt the one. Big woop, sometimes things dont work out.

We didnt see much of F.Watts, probably because of forward line was mint at the time that was functioning beatutifully... (Gehrig, Roo, Guerra, Milne, Hamil), so as you can see, it would be hard to crack into that squad at that time.

Whilst Jones is an OK player who gives his best, his kicking is not the greatest. Geary looked ok for the few games he played, Eddy imo is not up to it and overated, Stevens/McEnvoy... I havent even seen them play a game. So before stating Ross Lyon's introduced youth, the problem is they haven't given much at all. At least McGough played a fair few games and put in, fiora had his time (Better we got him that nothing for Black). Its funny how the GT blame still continues to go on. If anything, Ross Lyon took over a team primed with experienced/developed kids.

[WayneJudson42]

gt had two groups of players...the young core and old core

the old core have since departed...the young core are now the core

the new core that is the only core was the group that gt had all his faith in...when someone got injured our poor depth was shown...

Agree...

It was the softcore who got injured, and the hardcore that stood up.

[rodgerfox]

gt had two groups of players...the young core and old core

the old core have since departed...the young core are now the core

the new core that is the only core was the group that gt had all his faith in...when someone got injured our poor depth was shown...

Agree...

It was the softcore who got injured, and the hardcore that stood up.

Some would argue that GT tried too hard to assist this 'core'. Some would say that trading highish draft picks for depth players was an over the top effort to improve depth and 'assist the core'.

[InkerSaint]

All of these arguments are good on paper except on-field ability can't reach its best without off-field stability. And I think we all know that the Saints had precious little of that in '06-'07.

[Teflon]

Our approach has nothing to do with Sydney and again its a poor throwback to people saying "Ross Lyon is Paul Roos in drag" ...not true Im afraid.

Our approach is as you state - to use the rookie list and shrewed later picks (anyone suggesting the drafting of Stephen King as a failure needs their head examined). Why do this? - cause our draft picks and where we finish dictate this is the way we have to go.

The real question is: what early picks has Ross Lyon given up SO FAR and that has become a failure?

Not King, Gardiner, etc???...thats an interesting analysis to Grants model of "it was all John Beveridge....I wasnt even home at the time" (whoever buys that - and Plugger will - is in fairy land)... immediately I can recall Brooks/Watts as absolute monty's we lost early picks for???

I think you will find also through this approach - and the playing of Geary, Eddy, Jones, Armitage, Stevens, McEvoy etc that Lyon has introduced far more youth in his short time than in Grants last 2 years...hes had to.

As for Howard...I think you may also find he wasnt a Lyon selection if I recall correctly?

If anything, Ross Lyon took over a team primed with experienced/developed kids.

what drugs you on?

Ross Lyon took over an injury riddled list with players aka Hamill/Gehrig past there best, an ageing Harvey, no ruckman and a bunch of second string players that had been their far to long and shouldve been moved on by anyone with half a brain long before.

Its no coincidence Lyon has turned over so much of the list since he started.

F@rkn amazes me we STILL have supporters running round pretening we have this "super"list and all Lyon had to do was turn up.

Get off the drugs and wake up FFS - we have moreholes than swiss chees.

Dont take my word for it - take Geelongs when we play them this year.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Our approach has nothing to do with Sydney and again its a poor throwback to people saying "Ross Lyon is Paul Roos in drag" ...not true Im afraid.

Our approach is as you state - to use the rookie list and shrewed later picks (anyone suggesting the drafting of Stephen King as a failure needs their head examined). Why do this? - cause our draft picks and where we finish dictate this is the way we have to go.

The real question is: what early picks has Ross Lyon given up SO FAR and that has become a failure?

Not King, Gardiner, etc???...thats an interesting analysis to Grants model of "it was all John Beveridge....I wasnt even home at the time" (whoever buys that - and Plugger will - is in fairy land)... immediately I can recall Brooks/Watts as absolute monty's we lost early picks for???

I think you will find also through this approach - and the playing of Geary, Eddy, Jones, Armitage, Stevens, McEvoy etc that Lyon has introduced far more youth in his short time than in Grants last 2 years...hes had to.

As for Howard...I think you may also find he wasnt a Lyon selection if I recall correctly?

If anything, Ross Lyon took over a team primed with experienced/developed kids.

what drugs you on?

Ross Lyon took over an injury riddled list with players aka Hamill/Gehrig past there best, an ageing Harvey, no ruckman and a bunch of second string players that had been their far to long and shouldve been moved on by anyone with half a brain long before.

Its no coincidence Lyon has turned over so much of the list since he started.

F@rkn amazes me we STILL have supporters running round pretening we have this "super"list and all Lyon had to do was turn up.

Get off the drugs and wake up FFS - we have moreholes than swiss chees.

Dont take my word for it - take Geelongs when we play them this year.

if all that ross lyon had to do was to turn up then grant thomas would not have been sacked

[Teflon]

So GT didn't get any good kids?

Yet we just read an article that talks about the top class of the list being 'top class'.

This 'top class' were the kids that GT developed.

Isn't that what a coach is meant to do?

We also just read an article that said GT left it all to his core with no focus on providing support fopr them..

Funny how we read what we want....

The only line I read referring to kids was "They still have a dearth of exciting kids, but their top end is top class".

What article are you referring to?

Apologies BAM - I was referring to Inkersaints articleon front page of SS which I thought was an excellent read. The specific part I refer to is:

While the club completed its financial turnaround by 2006, on the playing field things were not going as planned. With such a promising young team great things were expected and disappointing finals losses in 2004 and 2005 were attributed to a high number of injuries. Thomas’ approach to list management drew criticism as he seemed to overly rely on his core group to the detriment of the supporting players, while Butterss insisted on maintaining a low spending level in the administration and football departments. The combination was disastrous as even Butterss eventually recognised that they were “possibly at the bottom of the list in terms of recurring soft-tissue injuriesâ€

[Shaggy]

Its not GT's fault according to Shaggy & Dodgy (was there a song like that...)

According to these football gods the list is as good as she was in 04/05 - its all just "underachieving good players" and a coach who cant get the best out of them.

Gonna be funny if Goddard/Ball tear it up this year.....

Actually you are the one who keeps bringing GT into it and talking about the 04/05 list. I don't think anyone else cares.

My problem with RL in his 2nd year is that the only players (IMO) who played to their ability last year were: Roo, Chips, Lenny, BJ, Ball, Milne, King, JB, Max, Dumpster, Banger, CJ, Birss (but he was delisted ) and Raph (at the end only).

On the other hand (IMO) Gram, Dal, Kosi, X, Gilbert, Fiora, Bakes, G-Train, Fish, MG, Fiora, Bakes & Goose didn't.

Monty and Sneider I am not sure about (are they better than GOPs).

I don't bring the kids into it because I do believe they need 3-4 years before being judged (rather than the 1-2 years you love).

With the senior players I don't think RL would be too happy with his performance.

Regardless we came 4th last year despite a lot of non performances.

Of course we can win the flag with our list.

[3rd generation saint]

I know some people are argueing whose fault is what, let's be frank, we can't do anything about the past now, so let's concentrate on the future because that is all that matters.

My problem with the article wasn't about the evaluation but how in the hell did they rate us finishing 4-7 and the day before prediciting Collingwood to finish 1-4.

Collingwood are not a top 4 side, hell Geelong put them in the their place last Friday night.

As far as I'm concerned there are two sides in the competition that give us a headache.

The first is Geelong because they are the best side in the competition right now, the other is Port Adelaide because we have a mental block in our ability to compete against them.

If we can get off to a good start and especially if we can overcome our bogey and roll Port at AAMI in round 5, we will finish top 4 and possibly top two.

[Teflon]

Its not GT's fault according to Shaggy & Dodgy (was there a song like that...)

According to these football gods the list is as good as she was in 04/05 - its all just "underachieving good players" and a coach who cant get the best out of them.

Gonna be funny if Goddard/Ball tear it up this year.....

Actually you are the one who keeps bringing GT into it and talking about the 04/05 list. I don't think anyone else cares.

My problem with RL in his 2nd year is that the only players (IMO) who played to their ability last year were: Roo, Chips, Lenny, BJ, Ball, Milne, King, JB, Max, Dumpster, Banger, CJ, Birss (but he was delisted ) and Raph (at the end only).

On the other hand (IMO) Gram, Dal, Kosi, X, Gilbert, Fiora, Bakes, G-Train, Fish, MG, Fiora, Bakes & Goose didn't.

Monty and Sneider I am not sure about (are they better than GOPs).

I don't bring the kids into it because I do believe they need 3-4 years before being judged (rather than the 1-2 years you love).

With the senior players I don't think RL would be too happy with his performance.

Regardless we came 4th last year despite a lot of non performances.

Of course we can win the flag with our list.

seriously Shaggy in your players that didnt play up to form you have mentioned Baker twice, Fiora twice and Maguire once - both were injured....and Baker only once..

We went on to make top 4 and Id argue Riewoldt also didnt perform up tio his standard (he really only played half a year).

So whats your problem with Lyon exactly cause IMO you just dont like the way we play would be about it.



Gehrig IS Lyons fault in that he shouldve stayed retired - that said he was a spent force. I expected nothing (and got it) from Gerhig last year.

[Teflon]

I know some people are argueing whose fault is what, let's be frank, we can't do anything about the past now, so let's concentrate on the future because that is all that matters.

My problem with the article wasn't about the evaluation but how in the hell did they rate us finishing 4-7 and the day before prediciting Collingwood to finish 1-4.

Collingwood are not a top 4 side, hell Geelong put them in the their place last Friday night.

As far as I'm concerned there are two sides in the competition that give us a headache.

The first is Geelong because they are the best side in the competition right now, the other is Port Adelaide because we have a mental block in our ability to compete against them.

If we can get off to a good start and especially if we can overcome our bogey and roll Port at AAMI in round 5, we will finish top 4 and possibly top two.

Great post.

Isnt it weird - the two sides you mention as our headache....neither the Premier.

I do believe we can roll Hawthorn.

I dont have that same faith now (i once did ) agaisnt Geelong.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

I know some people are argueing whose fault is what, let's be frank, we can't do anything about the past now, so let's concentrate on the future because that is all that matters.

My problem with the article wasn't about the evaluation but how in the hell did they rate us finishing 4-7 and the day before prediciting Collingwood to finish 1-4.

Collingwood are not a top 4 side, hell Geelong put them in the their place last Friday night.

As far as I'm concerned there are two sides in the competition that give us a headache.

personally i believe the only third of a team we cannot match up on and convincingly win is geelong's midfield

but then again who knows what will come of ours with our backs moving higher up the ground

The first is Geelong because they are the best side in the competition right now, the other is Port Adelaide because we have a mental block in our ability to compete against them.

If we can get off to a good start and especially if we can overcome our bogey and roll Port at AAMI in round 5, we will finish top 4 and possibly top two.

Great post.

Isnt it weird - the two sides you mention as our headache....neither the Premier.

I do believe we can roll Hawthorn.

I dont have that same faith now (i once did ) agaisnt Geelong.

[plugger66]

I know some people are argueing whose fault is what, let's be frank, we can't do anything about the past now, so let's concentrate on the future because that is all that matters.

My problem with the article wasn't about the evaluation but how in the hell did they rate us finishing 4-7 and the day before prediciting Collingwood to finish 1-4.

Collingwood are not a top 4 side, hell Geelong put them in the their place last Friday night.

As far as I'm concerned there are two sides in the competition that give us a headache.

The first is Geelong because they are the best side in the competition right now, the other is Port Adelaide because we have a mental block in our ability to compete against them.

If we can get off to a good start and especially if we can overcome our bogey and roll Port at AAMI in round 5, we will finish top 4 and possibly top two.

I agree. How can the pies be any good losing to the best side in the last 2 years in a practice match. Afterall we just beat Port Adelaide by 10 goals in a practice match.

Sorry what was that we lost.

Forget my last post then.

[lefty]

seriously Shaggy in your players that didnt play up to form you have mentioned Baker twice, Fiora twice and Maguire once - both were injured....and Baker only once..

We went on to make top 4 and Id argue Riewoldt also didnt perform up tio his standard (he really only played half a year).

So whats your problem with Lyon exactly cause IMO you just dont like the way we play would be about it.

Gehrig IS Lyons fault in that he shouldve stayed retired - that said he was a spent force. I expected nothing (and got it) from Gerhig last year.

You make it sound like we deserved "top 4". We barely made it, and our final performance against Hawthorn proved it. We weren't even close.

What is our forward line structure exactly? I'd love to see what Ross' plan would be if Roo got injured, because he is the ONLY go to man, with Milne as a small forward. There is no other player in the forward line that can do something decent consistantly. Kosi has his occasional glimpse's, but the way we play, zoning back and flooding, whats the point of Roo taking marks on the wing. Lol to the next kicking target, time after time, I see us standing waiting for players to run forward.

But hey, Ross picked up C.Gardiner to fix that, whilst I thought he provided another option, Ross got rid of him, another wasted pick. Michael Gardiner did nothing for the first year. Got rid of Birrs, a great idea... kept mcqualter over birrs, resinged fiora....shezz! Only decent player that given something to the club has been S.King, least he puts in every week.

Anyways, I'm not going to waste my time on this forum arguing with you or listening to insults just because you dont like or agree with what I type. I'll just wait till the season starts with a few games underway, to see if anything has changed/improved. I'll resever judgement until I've seen our 09 style of play. Be a pitty if its boring as hell like last year, to reactive, unlike Carlton game style atm. I also expect a big year from Armitage, lets hope Ross plays him more...

G'nite.

[Legendary]

Not sure any coach could really do a lot without Riewoldt fit and firing ...


Chuck a fit Luke Ball into our Prelim side (a bloke who was a big reason we got there in the first place) and things become a little closer.

We weren't as far off as people thought.

Not sure how this year will pan out ... quietly confident though.

[The Linton Street Flash]

TEFLON WROTE:
"Ross Lyon took over an injury riddled list with players aka Hamill/Gehrig past there best, an ageing Harvey, no ruckman and a bunch of second string players that had been their far to long and shouldve been moved on by anyone with half a brain long before."


Whilst we're on the topic of half brains vs full brains - does anyone know the difference between THEIR and THERE and TOO and TO?

[WayneJudson42]

C GArdiner was part of the King trade... all or nothing. HAd his chances, not up to it.

Birrs was less than a GOP.

Fiora? Had a decent 07 IIRC.

Dempster doing ok until injured. Don't forget what a loss he was in finals.

M Gardiner... injuries, but when fit was dangerous.

Schneider... 30 odd goals when half fit.

HHmmmmmmm.

[PJ]

M Gardiner... injuries, but when fit was dangerous.

I've got fingers crossed for this guy I think combining with Kingy could make our rucks in the best and have a massive influence on how we go from clearances.

This could really lift our midfield and have an impact on all the issues we discuss - first delivery to Hayes, a fit Ball, Armitage etc could change how we go into the 50 arc.

[joffaboy]

You make it sound like we deserved "top 4". We barely made it, and our final performance against Hawthorn proved it. We weren't even close.

Of course we deserved it. We beat Adelaide in the second last game and then beat Essendon. The team we hardly ever beat - by over 100 points to make top four.

Did we deserve to be top four? Well we flogged the fifth team in Collingwood. We got easily beaten by Geelong and Hawthorn and the Bulldogs probably would have accounted for us as well - doesn't mean we didn't deserve to be top four.

We ended up where we belonged - 4th.

What is our forward line structure exactly? I'd love to see what Ross' plan would be if Roo got injured, because he is the ONLY go to man, with Milne as a small forward.

You obviously haven't seen any of the practice matches. Gilbert has been up forward with Kosi. Milne os NOT the only small forward - ever heard of Schnieder??

But hey, Ross picked up C.Gardiner to fix that, whilst I thought he provided another option, Ross got rid of him, another wasted pick.

Oh FFS are you serious?? Gardiner was picked up for # 90 along with Steven King. He was picked up with a dp that Geelong didn't even use.

So tell me who would have you picked up with # 90 in the 2007 draft - because I am damn sure we would have got King as our ruckman.

I can see you hate Lyon but please deal in flipping reality.

Michael Gardiner did nothing for the first year.

You wnat him to play with an injured foot?

Got rid of Birrs, a great idea... kept mcqualter over birrs,[

Because McQualter is better than Birss and anyway he was given a kick up the arse and made a rookie.

resinged fiora....shezz!

Where is Fiora now?

Only decent player that given something to the club has been S.King, least he puts in every week.

You mean from that wasted pick #90. Fair Dinkum mate you should really know what you are on about before starting you little hate fest.

Anyways, I'm not going to waste my time on this forum arguing with you or listening to insults just because you dont like or agree with what I type.

You have a right to you opinion but it is based on ignorance and foolish emotion. Mabye thats what people have aginst your silly rants.

I'll just wait till the season starts with a few games underway, to see if anything has changed/improved. I'll resever judgement until I've seen our 09 style of play. Be a pitty if its boring as hell like last year, to reactive, unlike Carlton game style atm. I also expect a big year from Armitage, lets hope Ross plays him more...

So here we have it - a closet Carlton supporter - who would have guessed

[St DAC]

So here we have it - a closet Carlton supporter - who would have guessed

Jeez Joffa that's a tad harsh I reckon ... notwithstanding your valid points ...

[PJ]

You make it sound like we deserved "top 4".

Oh that's right I forgot those other teams that won more games than us. There was whatsernames and er some other mob ... just remind me again.

[Mr Magic]

You make it sound like we deserved "top 4".

Oh that's right I forgot those other teams that won more games than us. There was whatsernames and er some other mob ... just remind me again.

You guys are really harsh.

We didn't deserve to be top 4!

We played boring footy so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We have a boring coach who is a terrible media performer so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We have an unseen President so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had a 'snakeoil salesman' as a CEO so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had a previous President who sacked our real coach for reasons other than his coaching ability so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We're a '1 man band' footy team and didn't deserve to finish top 4.
Afterall if Roo hadn't carried the team on his own we wouldn't have won enough games to even play finals, let alone finish top 4.

We're moving from Moorabbin to Seaford so we didn't deserve to finish Top 4.

We don't have 35000+ members so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

Our assistant coaches were no good so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had too many recycled hacks so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We didn't have enough good young players so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had overated hacks like Kosi, Dal, X, Raph, Jimmy, Eddy, McQ, Jones, Howard, Gardi, Fizz, Birss, Charlie, Schneids, Dempster, Blakey, Geary, Fish, (have I missed any?) so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We unfailrly had to play Melbourne once whilst travelling to Brisbane, Sydney, Adelaide, Perth so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We have the quietest Cheer Squad in teh AFL so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had a shocking white away strip so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

As you can well see, it's obvious that with all these deficiencies (and others I haven't mentioned) we just didn't deserve to finish top 4.

[Sam23]

our cheersquad really is a disgrace though.

[Ice Wolf]

You make it sound like we deserved "top 4".

Oh that's right I forgot those other teams that won more games than us. There was whatsernames and er some other mob ... just remind me again.

You guys are really harsh.

We didn't deserve to be top 4!

We played boring footy so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We have a boring coach who is a terrible media performer so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We have an unseen President so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had a 'snakeoil salesman' as a CEO so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had a previous President who sacked our real coach for reasons other than his coaching ability so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We're a '1 man band' footy team and didn't deserve to finish top 4.
Afterall if Roo hadn't carried the team on his own we wouldn't have won enough games to even play finals, let alone finish top 4.

We're moving from Moorabbin to Seaford so we didn't deserve to finish Top 4.

We don't have 35000+ members so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

Our assistant coaches were no good so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had too many recycled hacks so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We didn't have enough good young players so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had overated hacks like Kosi, Dal, X, Raph, Jimmy, Eddy, McQ, Jones, Howard, Gardi, Fizz, Birss, Charlie, Schneids, Dempster, Blakey, Geary, Fish, (have I missed any?) so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We unfailrly had to play Melbourne once whilst travelling to Brisbane, Sydney, Adelaide, Perth so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We have the quietest Cheer Squad in teh AFL so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had a shocking white away strip so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

As you can well see, it's obvious that with all these deficiencies (and others I haven't mentioned) we just didn't deserve to finish top 4.

You forgot these ones

We lost one of our best midfielders (Ball) and defenders/taggers (Dempster) heading into the finals

We played the Bulldogs twice before the middle of the season when they were flying.

The only teams we lost to in the finals, were the Grandfinalists.

We lost the Premlim to the Premier.

[markp]

You make it sound like we deserved "top 4".

Oh that's right I forgot those other teams that won more games than us. There was whatsernames and er some other mob ... just remind me again.

You guys are really harsh.

We didn't deserve to be top 4!

We played boring footy so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We have a boring coach who is a terrible media performer so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We have an unseen President so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had a 'snakeoil salesman' as a CEO so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had a previous President who sacked our real coach for reasons other than his coaching ability so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We're a '1 man band' footy team and didn't deserve to finish top 4.
Afterall if Roo hadn't carried the team on his own we wouldn't have won enough games to even play finals, let alone finish top 4.

We're moving from Moorabbin to Seaford so we didn't deserve to finish Top 4.

We don't have 35000+ members so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

Our assistant coaches were no good so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had too many recycled hacks so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We didn't have enough good young players so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had overated hacks like Kosi, Dal, X, Raph, Jimmy, Eddy, McQ, Jones, Howard, Gardi, Fizz, Birss, Charlie, Schneids, Dempster, Blakey, Geary, Fish, (have I missed any?) so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We unfailrly had to play Melbourne once whilst travelling to Brisbane, Sydney, Adelaide, Perth so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We have the quietest Cheer Squad in teh AFL so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

We had a shocking white away strip so we didn't deserve to finish top 4.

As you can well see, it's obvious that with all these deficiencies (and others I haven't mentioned) we just didn't deserve to finish top 4.

Classic!

All evidence points to the conclusion that we weren't good enough to finish top 4... apart from the inconvenient fact that we did.

There was much joy to be had last year; we ended the finals hopes of the scum, the filth, and the crows, and we destroyed the bombers by a record margin... to name a few.

I'm pumped about this season's prospects... if you're not, why bother?