Lyon Not Entirely Happy With Win

Teflon · Post: # 707485Post **Teflon** » Fri 06 Mar 2009 11:03pm

See below quote from comments after the game:

Michael Gardiner and Steven King also again showed signs they may be a formidable ruck combination this year, allowing Justin Koschitzke to play as a deep forward.

Koschitzke started slowly, but worked his way into the game and finished with three goals.

But St Kilda coach Ross Lyon was not totally content, walking away frustrated that that so many forward entries didn't lead to a bigger margin.

"There's some concerns on efficiency," Lyon said.

Lyon said his team was "getting there", but warned of bigger challenges ahead.

"I'll go and see teams on the weekend and think 'gee, how are we going to be beat them?" Lyon said.

Lyon said Nick Riewoldt was on track to return next week.

Great to hear that - it really tells me the acids on this year as it should be but once again the ISSUE we have is fwd delivery and efficiency...been a bug bear for some time now.

Good to see Kosi get amongst it and Gardiner, King and Balls consistency so far this pre season has been a real positive....not to mention Goddards.

Geez.....keep that up and that "gap" we know we need to bridge just got a fair bit smaller.

Must say I was surprised Lyon publicly questioned us beingable to beat other sides.....theres a shot for the playing group.

Enrico_Misso · Fri 06 Mar 2009 11:05pm

Riewoldt - 2 weeks

Solar · Post: # 707520Post **Solar** » Sat 07 Mar 2009 12:38am

fantastic to hear him be so honest,

Saints Premiers 2008 · Sat 07 Mar 2009 1:25am

until we hold a team to 0 points and kick 25 goals we can never be happy

like everyone its good to hear goddard going forward and bagging a few with the ruck combo going ok

hopefully gardy gets the premiership medal he should have received from the eagles...

bigcarl · Post: # 707540Post **bigcarl** » Sat 07 Mar 2009 9:17am

we had 66 inside 50 entries to their 25 and 29 scoring shots to their 12.

the tigers made the most of their limited opportunities kicking wise, but it is so good to hear that ross has identified forward efficiency as one area in which we must improve,

Cairnsman · Post: # 707544Post **Cairnsman** » Sat 07 Mar 2009 9:27am

We seem to be having a sound pre-season. Great to hear the way RL speaks. I like the fact that he is not like some coaches who sound like cheap salesman spewing out well rehearsed sales pithces just to get some gratuitous exposure for themselves and their club.

Hey geez we must have the smallest injury list for this time of year also. Can anyone shed light on who might still be a little undone in terms of not putting in a full pre-season with the exception of Roo.

HarveysDeciple · Sat 07 Mar 2009 1:25pm

Apparently last week against the dogs we at one stage had 8 consecutive inside fifties without registering a score.
Good to see it's being highlighted as a concern. We simply must be more efficient.

Foz · Post: # 707586Post **Foz** » Sat 07 Mar 2009 1:39pm

In last nights game it looked like we were efficient in the clearances and the chain of handballs is quick and fast - the problem seems to be that no one truly breaks the line with speed through the midfield. Grammy is adapting to the midfield role and is one such player.

Farren Ray seems to take awhile to sum up options, he has some pace but spends a fair amount of time sizing up options. To me it looks as though we need some line breakers that can storm through the middle and set up play.

We also lacked a CHF to centre the ball through and ended up going wide. Kosi looked dangerous deep in the fwd line but I thought if he was better suited to having a run at CHF and provide a real contest as the ball came from the backline. In such a scenario BJ was agreat foil at FF - can take a contested mark, will slot the goal and is a fierce competitor.

samoht · Post: # 707592Post **samoht** » Sat 07 Mar 2009 2:14pm

We struggle to convert chances.

We lack medium sized goal kickers.

sunsaint · Post: # 707636Post **sunsaint** » Sat 07 Mar 2009 5:41pm

Foz wrote:
Farren Ray seems to take awhile to sum up options, he has some pace but spends a fair amount of time sizing up options. To me it looks as though we need some line breakers that can storm through the middle and set up play.

sounds like you have seen a few of his games with the Dogs, that was impression over at the kennel, until we get to see him in a game situation in the RWB Im going to give him the benefit.

Foz wrote:We also lacked a CHF to centre the ball through and ended up going wide. Kosi looked dangerous deep in the fwd line but I thought if he was better suited to having a run at CHF and provide a real contest as the ball came from the backline. In such a scenario BJ was agreat foil at FF - can take a contested mark, will slot the goal and is a fierce competitor.

Roo will straighten us up a bit at CHF....hopefully

St Fidelius · Sat 07 Mar 2009 8:18pm

samoht wrote:We struggle to convert chances.

We lack medium sized goal kickers.

We lack decent forward entry.

Far too much defensive and work the ball far too slow in getting the ball into the forward fifty thus resulting in our forwards with a lack of space to led into or being two teamed.

The movement into the forward fifty has to be quicker and the players reliance in their teammates is paramount.

They hvw to run past and expect that their own player will be covered.

This is what they are lacking IMO.

Far too much in covering their own backsides and not for a team effort.

Far too much p1ss farting around with the ball and when it finally gets into the forward fifty all our players are covered.

The team needs to be more direct and back their own

SainterK · Post: # 707684Post **SainterK** » Sat 07 Mar 2009 10:50pm

I agree with St Fid, we still seem to be taking unneccessary time in getting it to the forwards. We have the capacity to deliver it quickly, I am hoping this will improve as we approach round one.

St Fidelius · Sat 07 Mar 2009 11:13pm

ohwhenthesaints! wrote:I agree with St Fid, we still seem to be taking unneccessary time in getting it to the forwards. We have the capacity to deliver it quickly, I am hoping this will improve as we approach round one.

The loss of our forward coach (barker) is a huge one, I really rate him and I feel he will go a long way...

I just can't fathom the criticism he has received on this site. And so many think he was the result of our failure to convert the entries into the forward fifty.

Turnovers in the forward fifty is not the forward coaches responsibility when the forward half are covered with most of the opposition players are in there and have covered any leads.

It is up to the game plan and moving the ball forward into our forward 50 to leading forwards and not transgress into a defensive type play that provides the opposition to man up and in most cases double team our leading forwards.

Barker was right to leave, what farking hope did he have in this current setup?

Good move by him and I hope we have learnt by that.

He will be good for the hawks (and it's not, jobs for the boys) as some poster suggested...

Our loss, their gain, LEARN

ace · Post: # 707703Post **ace** » Sun 08 Mar 2009 12:47am

When you enter forward 50 from around the boundary you can kick to centre half forward or to one forward flank only.
When you enter forward 50 from the front of the centre square you can kick it anywhere between the left flank and the right flank.

That means that the opposition zone defence has to cover twice the area.
Spreading players half as thin.

So long as Lyon persists with his defence first, second and third strategy, forward efficiency will remain low.

Geelong found the solution as did Hawthorn in last years grand final.
You must dominate the corridor and the centre square in particular.
They don't have one player like Gram running down the corridor they have a wave of at least 3 players who can hanball to a player to their left or right to avoid an on coming tackler.

( Am I the only one who noticed that Hawthorn always tackled to ground the player after he had handballed, prefering to risk a free kick with delay of play, rather than letting him run past and receive the ball back.)

So long as Lyon requires every player to look after his own man, St Kilda will never achieve this.

Lyon has forgotten that football is a team sport, the team must cover loose opponents.
When the half backs have left their man and the ball is turned over, the full back line must step up and cover the opposition half forwards.

How often have we seen our defenders run away from an on coming ball carrier to cover their own opponent.
The ball carrier is allowed to enter forward 50 unopposed and score.

One of them has to go in and make the tackle on the opposition ball carrier secure in the knowledge that another defender has moved up to cover the pass to his opponent.

[b]If Lyon wants to improve forward efficiency he should first look in the miiror.[/b]

Shaggy · Post: # 707706Post **Shaggy** » Sun 08 Mar 2009 1:00am

St Fidelius wrote:
ohwhenthesaints! wrote:I agree with St Fid, we still seem to be taking unneccessary time in getting it to the forwards. We have the capacity to deliver it quickly, I am hoping this will improve as we approach round one.
The loss of our forward coach (barker) is a huge one, I really rate him and I feel he will go a long way...

I just can't fathom the criticism he has received on this site. And so many think he was the result of our failure to convert the entries into the forward fifty.

Turnovers in the forward fifty is not the forward coaches responsibility when the forward half are covered with most of the opposition players are in there and have covered any leads.

It is up to the game plan and moving the ball forward into our forward 50 to leading forwards and not transgress into a defensive type play that provides the opposition to man up and in most cases double team our leading forwards.

Barker was right to leave, what farking hope did he have in this current setup?

Good move by him and I hope we have learnt by that.

He will be good for the hawks (and it's not, jobs for the boys) as some poster suggested...

Our loss, their gain, LEARN

I agree and disagree.

Barker was made a scapegoat here on SS... but he was highly respected in the real world.

IMO RL is clueless with our KPPs which is a serious problem.

But Barker was not good enough to overcome it. RL is changing but we cannot merely focus on mids and defence when goals win games.

RL is changing and blokes like barker are making a difference otherwise we are stuffed. But Barks didn't do it in his time frame.

Of course he was good but not great IMO.

St Fidelius · Sun 08 Mar 2009 1:18am

Shaggy wrote:
St Fidelius wrote:
ohwhenthesaints! wrote:I agree with St Fid, we still seem to be taking unneccessary time in getting it to the forwards. We have the capacity to deliver it quickly, I am hoping this will improve as we approach round one.
The loss of our forward coach (barker) is a huge one, I really rate him and I feel he will go a long way...

I just can't fathom the criticism he has received on this site. And so many think he was the result of our failure to convert the entries into the forward fifty.

Turnovers in the forward fifty is not the forward coaches responsibility when the forward half are covered with most of the opposition players are in there and have covered any leads.

It is up to the game plan and moving the ball forward into our forward 50 to leading forwards and not transgress into a defensive type play that provides the opposition to man up and in most cases double team our leading forwards.

Barker was right to leave, what farking hope did he have in this current setup?

Good move by him and I hope we have learnt by that.

He will be good for the hawks (and it's not, jobs for the boys) as some poster suggested...

Our loss, their gain, LEARN

I agree and disagree.

Barker was made a scapegoat here on SS... but he was highly respected in the real world.

IMO RL is clueless with our KPPs which is a serious problem.

But Barker was not good enough to overcome it. RL is changing but we cannot merely focus on mids and defence when goals win games.

RL is changing and blokes like barker are making a difference otherwise we are stuffed. But Barks didn't do it in his time frame.

Of course he was good but not great IMO.

Mate, a scapegoat on here means jack lol, the real football world would know his talent and he has found a new home, and one would think it's not a "job for the boys" as some poster suggested

I just can't believe how flippant some on here are to suggest that it was barkers fault as being our forward coach and it was up to him to make those forward entries count

There are so many on here that really need to look at a match and stop sitting behind a keyboard and typing crap about a coach that has left and would be missed

Hawks gain = Our Loss

SUCK IT UP (for the posters that welcomed his departure)

bigcarl · Post: # 707709Post **bigcarl** » Sun 08 Mar 2009 1:57am

Shaggy wrote:we cannot merely focus on mids and defence when goals win games

that's it in a nutshell and i think it's been a significant blind spot for ross in his first two seasons.

the good news is he seems sincere about changing it. the proof will be in the pudding.

True Blue Sainter · Sun 08 Mar 2009 3:16am

Quite simply, our lack of scoring at times can be put down to two main reasons:

1) Moving the ball too slowly upfield
2) Making better decisions and using the ball smarter

1 can be addressed by allowing the players to show a bit of instinct and flair, and back their initial judgment. Take some risks, play on, get some quick handballs off to players running at full pelt. Look at Geelong for example, their back flankers such as Enright, Milburn and Hunt are always looking to overlap and set up forward thrusts.

2 can be addressed by trying to get it in the hands of one of our "more reliable" kicks - take Goddard, Dal & Chips for example. If we can get it to these sort of players more consistently, it will improve our efficiency going forward, as these blokes hit hte targets more often than not.

I could go into a lot more detail but I'm tired and off to bed, so I leave you with that summation. Night all.

bigcarl · Post: # 707755Post **bigcarl** » Sun 08 Mar 2009 2:08pm

True Blue Sainter wrote:Quite simply, our lack of scoring at times can be put down to two main reasons:

1) Moving the ball too slowly upfield
2) Making better decisions and using the ball smarter.

both of those are valid. here are a few more.

3) NUMBERS BEHIND THE BALL/GAMEPLAN:

It is impossible to move the ball quickly to your forwards if you don't actually have a forward line in place.

all too often our forwards end up on our half back line, leaving them too rooted and too far from the action when there is a turnover.

"make your opponent accountable for you" should be the directive to our forwards, not "be accountable for your opponent".

that way we put them on the backfoot rather than starting on the defensive ourselves.

4) PERSONNEL:

there seems to have been a reluctance from ross to commit further quality resources to the forward line,

the experiment with gilbert and the freeing up of some guns like bj, s. fisher and gram to perhaps go forward looks a step in the right direction.

5) OVER-RELIANCE ON RIEWOLDT:

this is intertwined with 4.

roo's a wonderful player, but needing him to be franklin and roughhead rolled into one is asking an awful lot.

we still haven't adequetly replaced gehrig and (if roo is to play chf) we need a full forward who can kick 70 goals to challenge imo.

has kosi turned the corner?

is gilbert the man?

can we expect to see bj playing forward regularly?

we'll find out.

stinger · Post: # 707771Post **stinger** » Sun 08 Mar 2009 3:49pm

bigcarl wrote:
.

we still haven't adequetly replaced gehrig and (if roo is to play chf) we need a full forward who can kick 70 goals to challenge imo.

has kosi turned the corner?

is gilbert the man?

we'll find out.

and soon.........god...i can hardly wait to the season starts.........

PJ · Post: # 707795Post PJ » Sun 08 Mar 2009 5:15pm

The loss of our forward coach (barker) is a huge one, I really rate him and I feel he will go a long way...

Just interested St.Fid - what do you base your rating on?

St Fidelius · Sun 08 Mar 2009 5:30pm

PJ wrote:
The loss of our forward coach (barker) is a huge one, I really rate him and I feel he will go a long way...
Just interested St.Fid - what do you base your rating on?

Just my opinion.

He has always been a thinker and the Hawks were quick to pounce on him after they won the premiership.

And IMO it was not "jobs for the boys", the inclusion of Barker to the Hawks will only enhance their Club.

Our loss their gain

thirty-seven!? · Sun 08 Mar 2009 5:52pm

St Fidelius wrote:
PJ wrote:
The loss of our forward coach (barker) is a huge one, I really rate him and I feel he will go a long way...
Just interested St.Fid - what do you base your rating on?
Just my opinion.

He has always been a thinker and the Hawks were quick to pounce on him after they won the premiership.

And IMO it was not "jobs for the boys", the inclusion of Barker to the Hawks will only enhance their Club.

Our loss their gain

Agreed - Barks was meant to have great raps on him coming to the club, and i know that I for one was excited with the appointment... However, now that he has gone, i am equally excited about Leigh Tudor's appointment, and his history as a coach. So at least there is one positive - we have at least replaced him with another strong coach. One who Ross Lyon has talked about being very clever, and bringing something new to the team.

As someone said earlier - it may have been Lyon's stubbornness at listening to someone else's suggestions, rather than Barker having bad ones. However, from recent media articles, it may at least seem that this is changing, with Ross commenting on being able to learn from his assistant coaches more nowadays.

But i guess we will see! I am excited about our full coaching panel (however, i do not know too much about Elshaug) - they all seem like tough men, who would make sure they would get what they wanted out of their players.

bigcarl · Post: # 707813Post **bigcarl** » Sun 08 Mar 2009 5:58pm

i felt for barker a bit because he would have been hamstrung to a large degree by the gameplan (which is the domain of the senior coach).

perhaps a new set of eyes like tudor can help us towards a better result.

St Fidelius · Sun 08 Mar 2009 6:06pm

bigcarl wrote:i felt for barker a bit because he would have been hamstrung to a large degree by the gameplan (which is the domain of the senior coach).

perhaps a new set of eyes like tudor can help us towards a better result.

Yep, as I stated earlier, it's not his fault on how the ball is delivered into the forward 50, any wonder he jumped at the chance to join the Hawks.

I am also excited in securing Leigh Tudor, but I feel we have lost a good one in Barker