Just be your bloody self

[evertonfc]

The Herald Sun could donate $5 million to the building of Seaford and they'd still be dumped on. Go figure.

[Teflon]

I didnt mind the article and thought Lyon answered it honestly - we did kick more goals in 08 than 06 - FACT. Not sure why thats then twisted to spin?

Hes definately learnt on the job - no problem with that. IF weve had this game plan change many c@rp on about - fantastic a coach who WILL listen.....theres a novelty....

What I do like about Lyon is he has his OWN football philosophy.....not Brisbanes of 5 yrs ago......it is built around a strong defence which many succesfull have been and he understands the game in a technical manner - not just an emotive one and thats important IMO. Lyon everytime after a game pin points where we fell over in a FOOTBALL sense and not just "we werent mentally tough enough" each week. He also pin points the areas we have got to improve in and spells it out black and white - see his comments on Dal, Ball, Kosi etc......hes dropped big names to prove his point. Its also no coincidence we are now running out games very strongly - yes we now have the budget (and I still cant believe without the Thomas/Butters love fest these 2 tits couldnt see we needed more $$ in this area) but Lyon went and got one of the absolute best in Misson and you can see the results. This tells me the guy technically knows what it takes to put together a side that can win games of football.

Danny Frawley Im sure was a good motivator - a real heart on the sleeve guy - but to this day I still reckon he gives you NO insights to whats happening game day. Nathan Buckley does and can cause he technically gets whats happening out there and IMO so does Lyon. Where he WILL have to get better no question is offensively,the ball carriage/delivery into fwd 50 has been poor under him AND he needs a fwd line that gels (he doesnt have a Coleman at his disposal or a Hamill running round lets remember that..) so he has to build and IMO hes started.

[Shaggy]

I didnt mind the article and thought Lyon answered it honestly - we did kick more goals in 08 than 06 - FACT. Not sure why thats then twisted to spin?

Hes definately learnt on the job - no problem with that. IF weve had this game plan change many c@rp on about - fantastic a coach who WILL listen.....theres a novelty....

What I do like about Lyon is he has his OWN football philosophy.....not Brisbanes of 5 yrs ago......it is built around a strong defence which many succesfull have been and he understands the game in a technical manner - not just an emotive one and thats important IMO. Lyon everytime after a game pin points where we fell over in a FOOTBALL sense and not just "we werent mentally tough enough" each week. He also pin points the areas we have got to improve in and spells it out black and white - see his comments on Dal, Ball, Kosi etc......hes dropped big names to prove his point. Its also no coincidence we are now running out games very strongly - yes we now have the budget (and I still cant believe without the Thomas/Butters love fest these 2 tits couldnt see we needed more $$ in this area) but Lyon went and got one of the absolute best in Misson and you can see the results. This tells me the guy technically knows what it takes to put together a side that can win games of football.

Danny Frawley Im sure was a good motivator - a real heart on the sleeve guy - but to this day I still reckon he gives you NO insights to whats happening game day. Nathan Buckley does and can cause he technically gets whats happening out there and IMO so does Lyon. Where he WILL have to get better no question is offensively,the ball carriage/delivery into fwd 50 has been poor under him AND he needs a fwd line that gels (he doesnt have a Coleman at his disposal or a Hamill running round lets remember that..) so he has to build and IMO hes started.

Lol I like the article to but for not the same reasons.

It shows RL is human and is adjusting as he has gone on in the job. The Saints will be better for it as RL learns from his mistakes.

RL did come with his own philosophy to the Saints and it showed because the game plan was more based on the Swans than the list he inherited.

GT came with a blank board and with Bundy looked at the previous 7 years results at the KPIs and worked out what they thought was most important.

Neither is right, its always a continual process.

The Dawks are open that they copied the Saints under GT but Clarkson added his own innovations which won them the GF.

The players RL is looking at now to improve the Saints are the same players who have under performed under RL compared to GT due IMO the change in roles.

But I agree that if he can get the best out of them as they were under GT we should seriously challenge for the flag. We now a major core of players at their footy peak with a lot of finals experience behind them.

RL is a smart and nice bloke who is still learning and changing and good on him even if he does a bit of spinning on the goal tally.

[Teflon]

I didnt mind the article and thought Lyon answered it honestly - we did kick more goals in 08 than 06 - FACT. Not sure why thats then twisted to spin?

Hes definately learnt on the job - no problem with that. IF weve had this game plan change many c@rp on about - fantastic a coach who WILL listen.....theres a novelty....

What I do like about Lyon is he has his OWN football philosophy.....not Brisbanes of 5 yrs ago......it is built around a strong defence which many succesfull have been and he understands the game in a technical manner - not just an emotive one and thats important IMO. Lyon everytime after a game pin points where we fell over in a FOOTBALL sense and not just "we werent mentally tough enough" each week. He also pin points the areas we have got to improve in and spells it out black and white - see his comments on Dal, Ball, Kosi etc......hes dropped big names to prove his point. Its also no coincidence we are now running out games very strongly - yes we now have the budget (and I still cant believe without the Thomas/Butters love fest these 2 tits couldnt see we needed more $$ in this area) but Lyon went and got one of the absolute best in Misson and you can see the results. This tells me the guy technically knows what it takes to put together a side that can win games of football.

Danny Frawley Im sure was a good motivator - a real heart on the sleeve guy - but to this day I still reckon he gives you NO insights to whats happening game day. Nathan Buckley does and can cause he technically gets whats happening out there and IMO so does Lyon. Where he WILL have to get better no question is offensively,the ball carriage/delivery into fwd 50 has been poor under him AND he needs a fwd line that gels (he doesnt have a Coleman at his disposal or a Hamill running round lets remember that..) so he has to build and IMO hes started.

Lol I like the article to but for not the same reasons.

It shows RL is human and is adjusting as he has gone on in the job. The Saints will be better for it as RL learns from his mistakes.

RL did come with his own philosophy to the Saints and it showed because the game plan was more based on the Swans than the list he inherited.

GT came with a blank board and with Bundy looked at the previous 7 years results at the KPIs and worked out what they thought was most important.

Neither is right, its always a continual process.

The Dawks are open that they copied the Saints but Clarkson added his own innovations which won them the GF.

The players RL is looking at now to improve the Saints are the same players who have under performed under RL compared to GT.

But I agree that if he can get the best out of them as they were under GT we should seriously challenge for the flag. We now a major core of players at their footy peak with a lot of finals experience behind them.

RL is a smart and nice bloke who is still learning and changing and good on him even if he does a bit of spinning on the goal tally.

You get the feel we are in for one of those "here we go again" but for all the wrong reasons...LOL.

Lazy, boorish "we are Sydney" type arguments trotted out by the same ole GT lovers who still need a Rev Jones type to tell them what day it is... You left off the bit where GT admitted he was trying to copy a Brisbane game plan....with Jason Blake in the ruck..

And these players who were magically "brilliant" under GT - were they still brilliant in 2006?...or are you harking back to when they were kids in 04 and surrounded by IN PRIME Rob Harveys, Hamills, Gehrigs, Thompsons et al?

You see what I mean - its lazy and tiresome and you're better than that...


I definatley think Lyons got areas to improve - I guess thats where we differ - I can see that and say it....your Grant loves got you a tad blinded.

Your mans gone Shaggy - took the cash and bolted - time to get behind the guy whose been left the task of actually building a side WITHOUT successive multiple top 10 draft picks.

No spin around that.

[Shaggy]

I don't think we are Sydney at all now.

LOL.

You are the one who keeps referring to the past. I just respond. Get over it. RL has obviously moved on.

PS the multiple top ten picks are now mature footballers

[Teflon]

I don't think we are Sydney at all now.

LOL.

You are the one who keeps referring to the past. I just respond. Get over it. RL has obviously moved on.

I dont think we have ever been Sydney - thats just media tripe to be swallowed by those who watch the game with no minds of their own. The coach has said so over and over again as well as the players....but some feel the need to perpetuate the myth. I guess as Lyon points out in his "spin" you referred to....perceptions are hard to change even in the face of facts.

Whats to get over btw? .....Your mans gone...

Im backing the coach we have now...shame we clearly all dont.

[WayneJudson42]

I don't think we are Sydney at all now.

LOL.

You are the one who keeps referring to the past. I just respond. Get over it. RL has obviously moved on.

I dont think we have ever been Sydney - thats just media tripe to be swallowed by those who watch the game with no minds of their own. The coach has said so over and over again as well as the players....but some feel the need to perpetuate the myth. I guess as Lyon points out in his "spin" you referred to....perceptions are hard to change even in the face of facts.

Whats to get over btw? .....Your mans gone...

Im backing the coach we have now...shame we clearly all dont.

Agree on that. I wonder if Lyon had come from another club and gne about building a defensive game, if he'd have been accused as he was?

Had he come from WCE, they would have lauded what a great tactician in trying to build a premiership team from the backline up.

As far as the list goes, obviously he'll require certain types of players to execute it.

IIRC, under GT, everyone bulked up because we tried to copy the Lions.

To say that certain players have gone downhill due to a change of role is silly.

Plyars are employed as part of a team, and have an obligation to adapt to the whims of the coach. Bloke like Dal and Kosi are underachievers.

Can someone remind me how great Kosi was under GT??

[Shaggy]

I don't think we are Sydney at all now.

LOL.

You are the one who keeps referring to the past. I just respond. Get over it. RL has obviously moved on.

I dont think we have ever been Sydney - thats just media tripe to be swallowed by those who watch the game with no minds of their own. The coach has said so over and over again as well as the players....but some feel the need to perpetuate the myth. I guess as Lyon points out in his "spin" you referred to....perceptions are hard to change even in the face of facts.

Whats to get over btw? .....Your mans gone...

Im backing the coach we have now...shame we clearly all dont.

Agree on that. I wonder if Lyon had come from another club and gne about building a defensive game, if he'd have been accused as he was?

Had he come from WCE, they would have lauded what a great tactician in trying to build a premiership team from the backline up.

As far as the list goes, obviously he'll require certain types of players to execute it.

IIRC, under GT, everyone bulked up because we tried to copy the Lions.

To say that certain players have gone downhill due to a change of role is silly.

Plyars are employed as part of a team, and have an obligation to adapt to the whims of the coach. Bloke like Dal and Kosi are underachievers.

Can someone remind me how great Kosi was under GT??

Lol you both need to read the article again.

RL has changed his 2007 game which looked very similar to a Swans game plan to me.

I am happy he has changed and I am not concerned he brought a Swans game to the Saints since it delivered a premiership just 2 years prior. Better than bringing the Tigers game plan or the blues because they were all terrible when RL was there.

Most of the teams RL has been involved with were not successes so it is not a surprise he follows alot of Roos.

What is more important is that RL is growing with the list from pre conceptions.

My main gripe with RL is that I think he clueless with talls and KPPs. But our list is now running focused which is what he believes in so lets see.

As for how good was Kosi? He did poll 3 votes 3 times in 4 games.

You may have missed it but he was on fire and IMO his WA injury cost the premiership.

Kosi is not a FF and doesn't look like a FF.

And Dal is not an underachiever. You must have very high expectations of Ray since he was a much higher draft choice than Dal. IMO Dal has been crucified under RL.

[WayneJudson42]

I don't think we are Sydney at all now.

LOL.

You are the one who keeps referring to the past. I just respond. Get over it. RL has obviously moved on.

I dont think we have ever been Sydney - thats just media tripe to be swallowed by those who watch the game with no minds of their own. The coach has said so over and over again as well as the players....but some feel the need to perpetuate the myth. I guess as Lyon points out in his "spin" you referred to....perceptions are hard to change even in the face of facts.

Whats to get over btw? .....Your mans gone...

Im backing the coach we have now...shame we clearly all dont.

Agree on that. I wonder if Lyon had come from another club and gne about building a defensive game, if he'd have been accused as he was?

Had he come from WCE, they would have lauded what a great tactician in trying to build a premiership team from the backline up.

As far as the list goes, obviously he'll require certain types of players to execute it.

IIRC, under GT, everyone bulked up because we tried to copy the Lions.

To say that certain players have gone downhill due to a change of role is silly.

Plyars are employed as part of a team, and have an obligation to adapt to the whims of the coach. Bloke like Dal and Kosi are underachievers.

Can someone remind me how great Kosi was under GT??

Lol you both need to read the article again.

RL has changed his 2007 game which looked very similar to a Swans game plan to me.

I am happy he has changed and I am not concerned he brought a Swans game to the Saints since it delivered a premiership just 2 years prior. Better than bringing the Tigers game plan or the blues because they were all terrible when RL was there.

Most of the teams RL has been involved with were not successes so it is not a surprise he follows alot of Roos.

What is more important is that RL is growing with the list from pre conceptions.

My main gripe with RL is that I think he clueless with talls and KPPs. But our list is now running focused which is what he believes in so lets see.

As for how good was Kosi? He did poll 3 votes 3 times in 4 games.

You may have missed it but he was on fire and IMO his WA injury cost the premiership.

Kosi is not a FF and doesn't look like a FF.

And Dal is not an underachiever. You must have very high expectations of Ray since he was a much higher draft choice than Dal. IMO Dal has been crucified under RL.

Ray was crucified under Eade

[saintly]

I don't think we are Sydney at all now.

LOL.

You are the one who keeps referring to the past. I just respond. Get over it. RL has obviously moved on.

I dont think we have ever been Sydney - thats just media tripe to be swallowed by those who watch the game with no minds of their own. The coach has said so over and over again as well as the players....but some feel the need to perpetuate the myth. I guess as Lyon points out in his "spin" you referred to....perceptions are hard to change even in the face of facts.

Whats to get over btw? .....Your mans gone...

Im backing the coach we have now...shame we clearly all dont.

Agree on that. I wonder if Lyon had come from another club and gne about building a defensive game, if he'd have been accused as he was?

Had he come from WCE, they would have lauded what a great tactician in trying to build a premiership team from the backline up.

As far as the list goes, obviously he'll require certain types of players to execute it.

IIRC, under GT, everyone bulked up because we tried to copy the Lions.

To say that certain players have gone downhill due to a change of role is silly.

Plyars are employed as part of a team, and have an obligation to adapt to the whims of the coach. Bloke like Dal and Kosi are underachievers.

Can someone remind me how great Kosi was under GT??

Lol you both need to read the article again.

RL has changed his 2007 game which looked very similar to a Swans game plan to me.

I am happy he has changed and I am not concerned he brought a Swans game to the Saints since it delivered a premiership just 2 years prior. Better than bringing the Tigers game plan or the blues because they were all terrible when RL was there.

Most of the teams RL has been involved with were not successes so it is not a surprise he follows alot of Roos.

What is more important is that RL is growing with the list from pre conceptions.

My main gripe with RL is that I think he clueless with talls and KPPs. But our list is now running focused which is what he believes in so lets see.

As for how good was Kosi? He did poll 3 votes 3 times in 4 games.

You may have missed it but he was on fire and IMO his WA injury cost the premiership.
Kosi is not a FF and doesn't look like a FF.

And Dal is not an underachiever. You must have very high expectations of Ray since he was a much higher draft choice than Dal. IMO Dal has been crucified under RL.

yes we all know that Kosi polled those many votes in 4 games.

but thats he 's done. he kept finding ways to get injured under Thomas.

[WayneJudson42]

Agree... people living on the memory of a few games... much like the memory of the streak in '04.

Dal is an underachiever. You cannot blame the coach.

Why can players like Harvey, Lenny, Roo... just to name a few... deliver consistantly under any coach?

Oh, and on the logic of Kosi ripping it up, we should not have delisted Fiora because he had a great year in 07.

[B W and R all over]

I didnt mind the article and thought Lyon answered it honestly - we did kick more goals in 08 than 06 - FACT. Not sure why thats then twisted to spin?

We kicked ten more goals but he doesn't mention that we played two more finals. So we still kicked less goals per game.

That's where the spin is.

[WayneJudson42]

I didnt mind the article and thought Lyon answered it honestly - we did kick more goals in 08 than 06 - FACT. Not sure why thats then twisted to spin?

We kicked ten more goals but he doesn't mention that we played two more finals. So we still kicked less goals per game.

That's where the spin is.

People can spin things however they like to suit thier arguments IMO.

2006, we had Gtrain... 2008 we didn't.

So we lost a 70+ goals, yet still kicked more goals that 2006.

On that basis, we have improved incredibly. IMO

Hmmm, see my point?

[bigcarl]

We kicked ten more goals (in 2008 than 2006) but he doesn't mention that we played two more finals. So we still kicked less goals per game. That's where the spin is.

whatever spin anyone wants to put on it, there is no denying we're more defensive under lyon.

loss of key personnel (G-Train and Hamill) is only part of the reason.

numbers behind the ball, the flood, whatever you like to call it, means that often there's no forward line to kick to ... they're all chasing their opponents on our half back line.

also there's the matter of ross's seeming reluctance to commit quality resources to the front half, which, after roo and milne, falls away pretty quickly.

gwilt and eddy were used there regularly in the second half of last season and i think that between them they contributed six or seven goals.

don't mind either as a player, but both would have been lucky to crack it for a place in our 2008 backline.

[evertonfc]

It's a huge spin by Lyon...

It's not just about goals scored. It's about intent.

We had our 2004-6 game plan under GT modelled on the Lions of 2001-3; you'd be kidding to think our game plan wasn't modelled on Sydney's 2005-6 team.

Sure, it's different, because we have different players. But the fundamentals are the same.

- Slow the game down
- Get numbers back defensively
- Choke the opposition for space

Sometimes, those aren't bad tactics. But we need to add a stronger offensive element to our game.

Partially, I think we lack options going forward and if you take Riewoldt away, there's nothing beyond him. Where Geelong have Johnson and Hawthorn have Roughead to take grabs up forward, we've got nada.

A third tall/running forward is so crucial for us. Tom Lynch's development should be given critical standing.

We'll try Gilbert, we'll try McEvoy and probably give Kosi another crack there, too. Either way, we need a third option to complement Riewoldt and Milne.

I'm starting to think I don't mind if that's tall or small...we're just too bi-focul when we need to have multiple options.

Look at Hawthorn: Williams, Roughead & Franklin added to Rioli and Dew, with several others - like Hodge and Lewis - capable of going forward and kicking goals. Take one out of the game, and they still can kick a big score - look at Buddy in the last two finals.

Take Riewoldt out of the game, and what do we have?

[BAM! (shhhh)]

It's an interesting can-o-worms Lyon flirts with (from a Saintsational perspective... comparing 2008 to 2006 has the danger of going down a much worn path - I wonder what B4E thinks? ) by taking up his '08 offense v the '06 Saints.

For the home and away season:
2008 Saints scored 2126 (309.272) gave up 1923(278.255).
2006 Saints scored 2074 (302.262) and gave up 1752 (250.252)

Rankingswise (2008 v 2006)
Offence: 8th v 7th.
Defence: 5th v 2nd.

A look at the raw numbers says that scoring has increased across the board.

In 2006, 9 teams scored 2000 points, 5 teams scored 2100, 4 scored 2200, 3 2300 and nobody cracked 2400 points for.

In 2008, 13 teams scored 2000, 11 scored 2100, 6 scored 2200, and 3 teams cracked 2400: Hawthorn (2434), Bulldogs (2506) and no surprise, the Cats scored a whopping 2672 points.

Taking the years as totals (including finals), in 2006, 5019 goals were scored, and in 2008 5238 were scored, an increase of approximately 4.2%. The Saints offensive increase doesn't quite keep pace with the league average while our opposition has more than doubled it at our expense.

These are pretty raw numbers, and there's plenty of room for context to be added to them, however if I'm Ross Lyon, stats aren't a place I want to go at this stage... perhaps most the most interesting one is this: In 2008 the Saints finished 4th with 52 points, on % with 110.56. In 2006, the Saints missed the top 4 (finished 6th) with 56 points, again on % with 118.38.

In spite of the numbers, I do applaud the attitude: "be yourself"... I would (without crunching the numbers) bet that our numbers through the 2nd half of '08 would be the best St Kilda run since the 2nd half of '05 backed by stingey defence and the occasional thrashing of the opposition. I'd contend that if we can actually bring our defensive results into line with our style, that Lyon may yet be able to make a statistical argument based on reality rather than spin.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

It's a huge spin by Lyon...

It's not just about goals scored. It's about intent.

We had our 2004-6 game plan under GT modelled on the Lions of 2001-3; you'd be kidding to think our game plan wasn't modelled on Sydney's 2005-6 team.

Sure, it's different, because we have different players. But the fundamentals are the same.

- Slow the game down
- Get numbers back defensively
- Choke the opposition for space

There's a fundamental difference between our approach and those Sydney teams that's been killing us: clearances.

Sydney forced more stoppages than anyone else, and backed themselves to at worst not lose a clearance. Scrappy football ensued.

St Kilda simply has not had the clearance grunt since '05. We're trying to make up for it with tall running defenders, but without the clearance work, a fundamental aspect of the Sydney game just does not happen. For years we blamed our rucks, can we safely say now it wasn't just the rucks?

Interestingly, in one of the latter rounds a stat was thrown up that any time St Kilda broke even or won the clearances in '08, they won the game.

Just based on that, for me it's not the Saints forward line that concerns.

[HarveysDeciple]

Why can players like Harvey, Lenny, Roo... just to name a few... deliver consistantly under any coach?

.

That to me hits the nail on the head.

[Cairnsman]

I know lets play a new game. Who do you think will be our next coach?

[Teflon]

In spite of the numbers, I do applaud the attitude: "be yourself"... I would (without crunching the numbers) bet that our numbers through the 2nd half of '08 would be the best St Kilda run since the 2nd half of '05 backed by stingey defence and the occasional thrashing of the opposition. I'd contend that if we can actually bring our defensive results into line with our style, that Lyon may yet be able to make a statistical argument based on reality rather than spin.

Good point. Its a balance and I dont buy the "we copied sydney" for 1 second. Sure, Lyon has his football philosphy influences - who doesnt? but thats a far cry from saying Max Hudgton is all of a sudden gonna play like Leo Barry...

Perhaps Lyons admission we didnt get things right in 07 was more about bringing us that balance between attack/defence? ...I dont think we are there yet but I have seen games and patches of games where we get it right and its quite entertaining to watch.

Ofcourse while we all talk tactics and whiteboards with Ross we ignore the crucial aspect of execution by the players.....conveninently for some I guess its just easier to say "we copied sydney" .....

[To the top]

So an article which starts "Many in the MEDIA were muttering "Your mate doesn't say much. We'll get him on the way out, We don't trust him" morphs into this Sydney v. St Kilda rubbish.

Frankly, as a St Kilda supporter, I could not care what the media say or think because most of them watch the games they are assigned to cover thru the bottom of a glass - hence an article which starts with the foregoing is nothing more and nothing less than insulting.

What I am interested in is St Kilda having consistent success and building a model that can deliver consistent success ie; positioning itself for a real crack on a consistent basis and delivering the ultimate reward because we are always around the mark.

The game changes, and Hawthorn were successful in 2008 not because they had the best team player wise but because they devised a tactic - as have other sides before them and as will other sides in the future, including in 2009.

The Coach brings that element - and he is responsible for the support staff including the support staff who keep the players on the park - because having your best players on the park gives you a better chance.

So we concentrate on St Kilda, and the measure of success is there each and every week during the season - because you either win or you lose.

The concentration on the media saying Lyon said little to them or on what "style" of game Lyon wants St Kilda to play are side shows.

We want to go each week and watch our team out-perform the opposition including all the way to Grand Final day.

We learn when we win.

We learn when we lose.

We learn about our players each and every minute they are on the field, win or lose.

And we get better and better including by being able to negate our opposition and any "game plan" they may invoke.

I would be more interested in an article where Lyon covers what he sees as our strengths, where he sees we are line ball, where he sees that we are vunerable and what our options are.

But, equally, I do not expect to see such an article because all we really want the opposition to know is what is disclosed by how we perform on the field.

The only comparative worth commenting on is the comparative on the score board between ourselves and the opposition each and every week.

If you are winning the ego driven clowns in the media can not "get you on the way out".

[plugger66]

Another lot of words without much point.

[To the top]

Plugger 66, do me a favour and pay the same courtesy I pay to your "contributions" to this site.

Ignore them totally.

[evertonfc]

It's a huge spin by Lyon...

It's not just about goals scored. It's about intent.

We had our 2004-6 game plan under GT modelled on the Lions of 2001-3; you'd be kidding to think our game plan wasn't modelled on Sydney's 2005-6 team.

Sure, it's different, because we have different players. But the fundamentals are the same.

- Slow the game down
- Get numbers back defensively
- Choke the opposition for space

There's a fundamental difference between our approach and those Sydney teams that's been killing us: clearances.

Sydney forced more stoppages than anyone else, and backed themselves to at worst not lose a clearance. Scrappy football ensued

St Kilda simply has not had the clearance grunt since '05. We're trying to make up for it with tall running defenders, but without the clearance work, a fundamental aspect of the Sydney game just does not happen. For years we blamed our rucks, can we safely say now it wasn't just the rucks?

Interestingly, in one of the latter rounds a stat was thrown up that any time St Kilda broke even or won the clearances in '08, they won the game.

Just based on that, for me it's not the Saints forward line that concerns.

Very astute post. It's why the Sydney model doesn't work for us, in my view - a lack of ball-winning midfielders. Hence, we can't force the stoppages Sydney could. Not only that, but if you win a stoppage against Sydney, it's hard to break clear with clean disposal because of the congestion = more pressure on the opponant.

I think though we can't underestimate the value a fully fit and functioning forward line.

Consider this from last year's finals series
- Riewoldt smashed vs Geelong, we have no alternative - we were killed.
- Riewoldt was amazing vs Collingwood and our general accuracy was outstanding as he inspired others - we were great.
- Riewoldt had no influence vs Hawthorn - we lost.
- Franklin had one great final - they thumped WB.
- Franklin had two bad finals - OTHERS stood up.

Who stands up for us when Riewoldt flounders? Likewise, when NOBODY stood up in place of Mooney for Geelong in the GF, how badly did they struggle?

It's a vital question in my book. We need to develop alternative options. Hawthorn won a PF and a GF with their best player injured/well beaten.

But they had options. We must develop them - because football is about adapting best to the circumstances.

So don't underestimate the importance of a forward line, especially when you need it to function: September.

[plugger66]

Plugger 66, do me a favour and pay the same courtesy I pay to your "contributions" to this site.

Ignore them totally.

I would if they at least made a little sense. Are you in politics by any chance.