Midfielders - inside/outside

[BigMart]

We have been questioned by all those outside for a one paced midfield lacking class and depth.....why we will not challenge most think.


Analysis
Inside - Centre Square

Brendon Goddard
Lenny Hayes
Luke Ball
Rotation
Nick Dal Santo
David Armitage
Leigh Montagna
Jason Gram

Injury Depth: Inside - Centre Square Rotations

Andrew McQualter
Jarryn Geary
Jack Steven

Outside Wing/High HFF- Ball carriers

Jason Gram
Farren Ray
Nick Dalsanto
Xavier Clarke
Brendon Goddard

Injury Depth: Outside Wing/High HFF- Ball carriers

Clinton Jones
Robert Eddy
Jarryn Geary
Jack Steven

Taggers

Leigh Fisher
Steven Baker[/b]
Sean Dempster (inj)

Depth: Taggers

Andrew McQualter

Rucks
#1 - Steven King
Fwd Ruck - Justin Kosi

Depth: #1 - Michael Gardner
Fwd Ruck - Ben McEvoy

Not that bad.....of the 21 mentioned
14 first round draft picks
5 All Australians
3 Best & Fairests
2 RU Best & Fairests
8 Rising Star Nominations
1 Rising Star Winner
4 Rookie Elevations

[TassieJones]

wtf... Leigh Montagna is our best outside mid by a mile.

Great list other than that though, looks the goods but we have for many years *sigh*

[Solar]

It just shows the value of having players fit and able to play in their right positions...

doesn't look bad with a fit ball and BJ allowed to play onball. if our half backs can stand up without chips and BJ our midfield improves out of sight. One of geary, steven or fisher to stand up will give our midfield the rotation we need

[BigMart]

Leigh Montagna will play predominately in the centre square this year ..... to add zip, run and carry to the 'onball' division'

Ray, Jones and Gram will play as Wingers

[plugger66]

Leigh Montagna will play predominately in the centre square this year ..... to add zip, run and carry to the 'onball' division'

Ray, Jones and Gram will play as Wingers

Apart from when the ball is bounced after a goal or to start a quarter wingers are onballers as well these days unless you play the position like Richo.

[TassieJones]

Leigh Montagna will play predominately in the centre square this year ..... to add zip, run and carry to the 'onball' division'

Ray, Jones and Gram will play as Wingers

I doubt that considering he spent a vast majority of 2008 receiving and setting up play. Was our leading player for inside 50s, kicks and almost assists playing outside role to perfection, will definitely play as a ball carrier next year.

[cwrcyn]

What about Steve Baker?

A very handy inside midfielder and tagger

[BigMart]

Yes....an inside ball carrier......will be at the stoppages (with Gram)....and run away and carry the ball away from them...ala Rob Harvey, Cousins, Brent Harvey, Cooney, Ablett, Mark Murphy, Foley.....like a stoppage reciever.....he will recieve plenty of blocks this year

Unlike and outside winger/flanker....who plays off the stoppage....Joel Corey, Daniel Wells, Griffen, Pendlebury, Dyson, Lovett, Clinton Young, Travis Johnson etc.....I would expect Farren Ray, X.Clarke to share these positions with Dal, Gram, Joey and BJ.....probably Sam Fisher at times aswell....

You also have your key inside first recievers......Hayes and Ball would be in that category with Armo....they win a lot of contested footy....and clearances...Daniel Cross, Jobe Watson, Shane Tuck, Simon Black, Haselby, Mitchell, Harris, Simpson etc....

Goddard and Dal can play a dual role.....classic inside/outside mid....which is what Joey is hoping to become......Ablett and Cooney are the best two in this category IMO hopefully this season Judd gets back to this

Joey will still spend some time 'outside'......as with gram.....but will be moved inside when needed...

[Richter]

Interesting thoughts Marto particularly re Joey. Always like to hear what your ideas are. Cheers.

What I'm also looking forward to the combination of Dal and BJ essentially quarterbacking through the midfield. There were glimpses of this in the games vs Essendon and vs the pies. We were lacking an "inside" mid (i.e. Luke Ball) to be able to give these two the requisite platform against the Hawks IMO.

[bobmurray]

In the end though it's Ross's opinion , or analysis , that determines how the various aspects of the team are put together..

it is interesting to read how the diehard see things but ultimately their thoughts are irrelevant......

Go saints...i hope those with the real jobs can achieve the desired goal...

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Leigh Montagna will play predominately in the centre square this year ..... to add zip, run and carry to the 'onball' division'

Ray, Jones and Gram will play as Wingers

Apart from when the ball is bounced after a goal or to start a quarter wingers are onballers as well these days unless you play the position like Richo.

to follow your point i've never understood the idea of a modern day winger apart from a tall forward moving up to a wing...even then a wing = move around where-ever one likes...so its hardly a wing

[True Blue Sainter]

Leigh Montagna will play predominately in the centre square this year ..... to add zip, run and carry to the 'onball' division'

Ray, Jones and Gram will play as Wingers

Apart from when the ball is bounced after a goal or to start a quarter wingers are onballers as well these days unless you play the position like Richo.

to follow your point i've never understood the idea of a modern day winger apart from a tall forward moving up to a wing...even then a wing = move around where-ever one likes...so its hardly a wing

Agree. Back in the days, wingers would stick pretty much only to their side on the ground, between the 50m arcs.

As plugger rightly pointed out, they play as additional on-ballers nowadays.

[BigMart]

The Wingman.....is absolutely important to ball movement and structure.....

when the stoppage is on one side of the ground.....the 'fat side' runner will hold his position behind the ball and find space to run into for the switch....when possesion is taken....if he is drawn to the stoppage....he will ultimately congest and also force the kicker to kick down the line.

if the 'winger' does not hold his position there will be no system on the switch......the ball carrier must look inside because it creates open space for the fwds..(on the otherside)..rather than going down the line....I would love to have a whiteboard to illustrate the point..

Only a couple of teams do not use the 'wingman' or in modern day speak....a line breaker/outside runner
Sydney prefer to move the ball from stoppages slowly and forward, not sideways.....Hall and O'Keefe are give space in front of them to lead up to the stoppage.......geelong prefer to run in huge numbers (from behind the ball carrier and fick the ball around) the are high possession team and play a risky game, but have the manpower to pull it off.....

Examples of clubs used the following wingers/runners last season
Adel: Nathan Van Berlo
Bris: TJ
Carl: Kade Simpson
Coll: Swan/Pendlebury/R.Shaw
Ess: Ricky Dyson
Freo: Peake?Mcmanus
Geel: NA...Enright and Corey played as extra followers
Haw: Clinton Young
Nth: Wells
Port:Pearce/Logan/Boak
Rich: Tivendale/Hyde/Tambling
St.K: Montagna
Syd: NA
WB: Eagleton
WCE: Braun/Embley

[plugger66]

The Wingman.....is absolutely important to ball movement and structure.....

when the stoppage is on one side of the ground.....the 'fat side' runner will hold his position behind the ball and find space to run into for the switch....when possesion is taken....if he is drawn to the stoppage....he will ultimately congest and also force the kicker to kick down the line.

if the 'winger' does not hold his position there will be no system on the switch......the ball carrier must look inside because it creates open space for the fwds..(on the otherside)..rather than going down the line....I would love to have a whiteboard to illustrate the point..

Only a couple of teams do not use the 'wingman' or in modern day speak....a line breaker/outside runner
Sydney prefer to move the ball from stoppages slowly and forward, not sideways.....Hall and O'Keefe are give space in front of them to lead up to the stoppage.......geelong prefer to run in huge numbers (from behind the ball carrier and fick the ball around) the are high possession team and play a risky game, but have the manpower to pull it off.....

Examples of clubs used the following wingers/runners last season
Adel: Nathan Van Berlo
Bris: TJ
Carl: Kade Simpson
Coll: Swan/Pendlebury/R.Shaw
Ess: Ricky Dyson
Freo: Peake?Mcmanus
Geel: NA...Enright and Corey played as extra followers
Haw: Clinton Young
Nth: Wells
Port:Pearce/Logan/Boak
Rich: Tivendale/Hyde/Tambling
St.K: Montagna
Syd: NA
WB: Eagleton
WCE: Braun/Embley

Impressive writing but not how it is I am afraid. A winger is an onballer who stands outside the square for centre bounces only as proven when there is a secondary bounce they go straight in the middle of the ground and become a another onballer apart from maybe Richo who will then go forward. I would suggest wingman hardly ever hold their psoition in the AFL because they are so fit that they can get to contests in nearly any part of the ground. Even in lower levels of footy it is gradually changing.

[BigMart]

Do you not know who Clinton Young is????

If you do....give me a run down on his game style and tell me what position he plays....

I will say it again

If you want to move the ball quickly.....players cannot congest the stoppage.....and have to know where they must position themselves....not just chase the ball around like an U16.....it is called structure....

They spend hours and hours getting it right.....if it were a matter of just chasing the ball all over the field as you believe.....why does Ross Lyon spend two hours 3 times a week drilling players and yelling at them for not being in the right position, not following the team Game Plans

How often do you see Players trying to clear the stop play to get a runner loose......or do you not see a lot????

or hear the call....why is he always loose?...who is on him?....how did he get that space?....answer: he held his position, did not get drawn to the ball and ran at the right time....

Classic wingers game in 2008....

Josh Hill vs us in R3....

[plugger66]

Do you not know who Clinton Young is????

If you do....give me a run down on his game style and tell me what position he plays....

I will say it again

If you want to move the ball quickly.....players cannot congest the stoppage.....and have to know where they must position themselves....not just chase the ball around like an U16.....it is called structure....

They spend hours and hours getting it right.....if it were a matter of just chasing the ball all over the field as you believe.....why does Ross Lyon spend two hours 3 times a week drilling players and yelling at them for not being in the right position, not following the team Game Plans

How often do you see Players trying to clear the stop play to get a runner loose......or do you not see a lot????

or hear the call....why is he always loose?...who is on him?....how did he get that space?....answer: he held his position, did not get drawn to the ball and ran at the right time....

Classic wingers game in 2008....

Josh Hill vs us in R3....

I would say Young plays a typical outside game and tends to play on one side of the ground because of his left foot kicking but he doesnt just stay on the wing like they did 20 years ago. He will move up and down the ground to where the stoppage is and stand back from the stoppage and receive the ball. If that is a wingman then he is one but in my opinion he is on the ball just not in and under like some onballers.

[BigMart]

Very few wingers have just plonked themselves on a wing.....most run from the BP to the HFF and cover from the centre to the Boundary on on side...in other words a big area....

Peter Matera, Aussie Jones (97), Nick Winmar were classic running wingman

Francis Bouke, Dipper and a few other big wingman were used as outlets from defense and were contested marking targets on the wing....

And the way you decribed young - was the same as my description of a modern day wingman.....

expect: BJ, Joey, Gram, Ray, Sam Fisher, X to all play that role at various stages.....

[plugger66]

Very few wingers have just plonked themselves on a wing.....most run from the BP to the HFF and cover from the centre to the Boundary on on side...in other words a big area....

Peter Matera, Aussie Jones (97), Nick Winmar were classic running wingman

Francis Bouke, Dipper and a few other big wingman were used as outlets from defense and were contested marking targets on the wing....

And the way you decribed young - was the same as my description of a modern day wingman.....

expect: BJ, Joey, Gram, Ray, Sam Fisher, X to all play that role at various stages.....

I expect that all outside players will play that role at every club including ours because that is how outside onballers with pace play. Modern day wingman maybe modern day onballer yes.

[BigMart]

The term 'on-ball' means that you are at the normally position of the footy.....generally a contested situation (stoppage) or around the area of general play....you are either

1) a distributer/playmaker (Michell) the people are referred to as hunters or predators by drafters as they win their own ball more often than not...

2) a hard gut-runner/Reciever (Cousins) is able to keep up with play, be a link man and recieve at the contest....

3) Great on ballers (Judd/Ablett) can do both...

4) The other type of on-baller (or follower) is rare.....someone who instinctivly knows where the ball is going to and how to position themselves around the play, and they usually set up play as they can see the game unfold better than most.....Buckley could do this....as could Hird when he went into the middle

then there is
5) Then there is the other typre we are talking about....the outside runner...(winger/flanker)...who IS NOT an onballer they position themselves a play away from the contest and recieve in space outside the contest and often carry the footy.....take a lot of uncontested marks....do not win as much footy, which is why they are not on-ballers

Examples of saints who play these roles

1) Ball and Armitage

2) Montagna hopefully Gram...we lack in this area

3) Hayes and Harvey (hopefully be Dal in 09)

4) Hopefully Goddard

5) Ray/X.Clarke.......neither have ever played 'on-ball'

and of course there is the run-with players


On-Ballers are different to midfielders....

the midfield group consist of
On-ballers, outside-runners, Ruckman, High half-forwards, Taggers......about 9 players

you generally have 5 down back

4 up front

Some teams are a bit different.....Hawthorn are very different

[plugger66]

Well we agree to disagree because I would say if you follow the ball to stoppages you are an onballer even if you are an outside players who carries or an inside player who gets his own ball.

[sunsaint]

They spend hours and hours getting it right.....if it were a matter of just chasing the ball all over the field as you believe.....why does Ross Lyon spend two hours 3 times a week drilling players and yelling at them for not being in the right position, not following the team Game Plans
.

so it's true our players can't follow a game plan?

Bigmart VS Plugger66 you could argue this one till your blue in the face, I can see points on both sides... tho todays game is not uncommon to see 14 players around the ball, & it is the quick explosive running break from the pack not so much a loose man that gets the clearance. Maybe that's the current mantra "hold possession at all costs".
but the way I see it because we play with an oval ball, an outside mid can quickly become an inside mid, and a winger can become a second tap ruckman and ruckman can become a tagger, the combinations are endless. While I agree some players are "pidgeon" holed with a label because of attributes, the "new" game shows us that the teams to beat (gee/hawks) are the ones where the onballers can do it all. (ie Osbourne Vs Ablett, OR "better known as a taggers", that can hurt you offensively, Bateman VS Ling. ) The Saints have never lacked great onballers, what we have lacked is the ability to do it all, run all day AND play defensively when we dont have it, Speed AND kick goals.

[bobmurray]

In regards to poor skill level......

It's too bad JB didn't have an eye for players with the skills that suit the modern game,in time Ross may well have turned over the list to the point
where the JB recruits are limited.....

It's difficult to do it via the rookie list though as those players usually have flaws that have concerned recruiters enough to allow them to pass through to the rookie list in the first place....

I hope eventually players with poor disposal skills aren't recruited at AFL level...that will place a bigger onus on junior levels to develop a players skills...

[PJ]

but the way I see it because we play with an oval ball, an outside mid can quickly become an inside mid, and a winger can become a second tap ruckman and ruckman can become a tagger, the combinations are endless. While I agree some players are "pidgeon" holed with a label because of attributes, the "new" game shows us that the teams to beat (gee/hawks) are the ones where the onballers can do it all.

Agree with this entirely. All clubs work to set plays in practice and have players as designated insiders/outsiders but in reality because of getting numbers to the ball, players roles become blurred. Most players need to be multiskilled and improvise.

You'll always hear players saying they have to work on their weaknesses. They are all trying to adapt faster than the next guy.

NDS is a classic example of someone trying to change what is instinct in his play to become more dimensional. He's trying to be more accountable - tagger, more inside - get his own ball.

[BigMart]

There are few players - if any.....that can 'do it all'

every player has their style, which fits into a game plan...utilise their strengths, negate weaknesses ...I will say it again....the AFL is not an U16 comp where players just chase the footy....it is a little more structured than that.....the creating of space is intentional...the freeing up of players....Gram/Sam F/Goddard is intentional.....and the cascade effect is crucial....and posioning is far more important to maning up....except run-withs

[jays]

i think ray will bring much needed pace to our group