Merry Xmas - List Management comes to the Saints!

[the shadow]

The rookie draft rounded off our mini re-build of the list. In an earlier post, (We've done really well) I said that the drafting this year and last, had a real sense of strategic list management for the first time.

Instead of filling holes and hoping we could pinch a flag with a great core group, RL and his staff have planned for the short, medium and long term. They have added 19 players to our list over the past two years, most of them in the 18-22 age group. This is not a slash at the previous incumbent and his staff, but if we are honest and examine the drafting of 03-05, there is no doubt we set ourselves back by not taking a longer-term outlook.

What we have now, admittedly thanks to better staff and resource allocation, are short, medium and long-term strategies in place. This should mean that we continue to turnover talent and personnel that should ensure we remain competitive after our terrific core group of Riewoldt, Ball, Dal, Kosi etc. enter their twighlights and beyond.

For example, the short term has been addressed through the recruitment of King, Dempster, Schneider, Ray and Begley. These players solve the immediate problems in the ruck, a small-medium forward, and run and pace through the midfield and off half back.

The medium term has been addressed through the selection and development of our early picks in Armitage (midfield), McEvoy (Ruck-forward), Steven (midfield), Lynch (KPP/3rd tall forward), Heyne (forward /midfield). These players are all young and have the potential to play a fair amount of senior football, fairly immediately. They are all exceptionally talented and, with a modicum of luck, should become 10 year players.

The medium term is also complemented by our new found enthusiasm for the rookie list. Prior to RL's arrival, the only real success we've had from the rookie list was Milne. ATM we have CJ, Geary, Eddy and Mini all pushing onto the senior list, adding some depth and putting pressure on for positions, something that hasn't always been there in the past. Dawson and Miles as developed tall defenders (Insurance for Max and Goose) and Brad Howard on his last chance round out the group.

The long term looks exciting, especially as we can afford to be a little more speculative! We haven't had our expectations crushed by the fact that a number of players won't make it. The long term looks healthy as we now have two young developing rucks in McGrath and Stanley. We also have 3 KPP prospects in Cahill, Haretuku and Gaertner.

On the subject of Gaertner, it's hard to believe this kid was overlooked in two drafts and last year's rookie draft. Go and have a look at his highlights on Youtube. At 199 cm and of a reasonable build, he is very quick and agile for his size. While his kicking and decision-making need work, I think he looks the epitome of the modern player. I reckon he'll be the pinch of the draft.

Alastair Smith, Eljay Connors, McGarry and Choo-choo (another excitement machine) take care of the long-term small-medium forwards/possible midfielders departments.

I know that not all these guys are going to make it. The sad fact is the average player's career lasts just 3.5 years and only 10% play 200 games. The fact is this group may be no different, but I have a feeling the new recruitment and player development areas of the club will ensure the pickings here will defy the odds. And that's the game, defying the odds. In the past player development and recruitment was left largely in the hands of two men. Thank goodness that has changed.

Like Big Kev (R.I.P) , if he were still with us - I'm excited. It looks as though we have a definable plan, which brings us in line with the more successful clubs. Just look at Hawthorn over the past 4 years! Ever wondered why Adelaide, WC and Port are never down for long? Player development programs and recruitment that have been without peer. We're now in the hunt!

Finally, I wish you all a merry Xmas and happy and safe New Year. I hope you all get what you want in your stockings. All I want is that 2009 Cup! Thanks also for an interesting and at times challenging year. to those I've upset - sorry, nothing personal, and to those who agree with me - you are all geniuses!

The Shadow

[BallBanger]

Careful of the JohnBeveridge fan club...

I agree, its refreshing to have some youth coming through. If you want to be around in the future its important to keep the potential talent coming through.

I'm not big on recruitment from other clubs whether it be rejects or players wanting to move on. Generally if the player is any good his previous club would not let him go also these players are paid well above market value.

We have always been known as the retirement village regrettably often being labelled Carlton/Hawthorn seconds from past history as a resuly of recruiting rejects predominately from same during the 80's. Very happy to see this habit reversed.

[plugger66]

I would have thought the last 3 years has had more short term fixes than the previous 5 years by a long way. I agree we also have got plenty of young players but that is due to finishing 8th and 9th the previous 2 years so more players get delisted. When we were fighting for a flag iin 2004/05 we were never going to delist as many players as in previous years.
I know we did finish 4th this year but are back in a pack with about 5 other sides so we again made a few changes plus the advantage of more rookie selections. Of course I know we will have the old why didnt we use rookies previously arguement but we actually did they were just no good and I think we can put that down to finances.
Lets hope we get a few selections are right because in the last 3 years we have probably gotten rid of 6-8 players that have been drafted in that time and that isnt counting rookies. It good to have turn over but I am not sure you want to turnover players that have only been at the club for 2 years.

[CeilidhSaint]

It's nice to have a plan, but almost any other AFL club supporters could do what you have done with "insert new name here" so until I see the proof in the pudding I am not convinced about any new player at senior level....especially rookies oreven those outside the first round, and there are some players at senior level I am still not convinced about either...

[the shadow]

The point I'm trying to make is that at least we have a plan in place. In addition to this, we also have the sort of development system that will allow us to develop our players and give them the best chance of success.

As I said in the post, the odds are that a number of them will fail. The difference between now and 3 years ago is that our chances of succeeding with what we've got is far greater now than then. The reason so many have fallen by the wayside, or not measured up in the past was the lack of specific player development and coaching.

Mini is a good example of someone who would've been lost under the old system. He has reinvented himself with assistance from within and now has a decent shot at an effective senior career.

How do you think Adelaide has remained so competitive over the journey when they've had so few top ten picks (only one I think, and that was Lawrence Angwin!)? The answer is their recruitment and development system has been so much better than ours. Not anymore. Sit back and enjoy. I'm sure the next few years will prove me right.

[saintsRrising]

Yes....Ross "The Trojan" Lyon is doing a great job List Management wise.

[St Fidelius]

Yes....Ross "The Trojan" Lyon is doing a great job List Management wise.

What does that mean

Matthew Drain is in charge of List Management....

are you being sarcastic with the re singing of Brad Howard ??

Sorry, not having a dig, but just wondering

[WayneJudson42]

The point I'm trying to make is that at least we have a plan in place. In addition to this, we also have the sort of development system that will allow us to develop our players and give them the best chance of success.

As I said in the post, the odds are that a number of them will fail. The difference between now and 3 years ago is that our chances of succeeding with what we've got is far greater now than then. The reason so many have fallen by the wayside, or not measured up in the past was the lack of specific player development and coaching.

Mini is a good example of someone who would've been lost under the old system. He has reinvented himself with assistance from within and now has a decent shot at an effective senior career.

How do you think Adelaide has remained so competitive over the journey when they've had so few top ten picks (only one I think, and that was Lawrence Angwin!)? The answer is their recruitment and development system has been so much better than ours. Not anymore. Sit back and enjoy. I'm sure the next few years will prove me right.

I tend to agree with this. It never ceased to amaze me how some teams always turned out very good players, but we always seemed to have a core of "stars" and then struggled from there.

They key is develoment. Good clubs know how to do it. Wait and see how quickly the WCE regroup and are back in contention.

You mentioned Adelaide, but don't forget Sydney, also.

Hopefully, this is what Footy First is all about. Setting up long term success once and for all. With the training facilities due to come in a few years, and the appointment off some of the best Off-field people... I'm vey optimistic of the future.

[saintsRrising]

Yes....Ross "The Trojan" Lyon is doing a great job List Management wise.

What does that mean

Matthew Drain is in charge of List Management....

are you being sarcastic with the re singing of Brad Howard ??

Sorry, not having a dig, but just wondering

It is a private joke with the OP...

[saintsRrising]

I would have thought the last 3 years has had more short term fixes than the previous 5 years by a long way. .

Not sure why you say that...sure there has beena lot in the last 3 years....but there were a lot in the previous 5 as well.

Rix
Knoble
Ackland
Guerra
Gram
Watts
Brooks
Fiora
McGough
Callaghan
Gale
Capuano
Voss
GTrain
Lawrence
Penny
Hamill
Black

[Teflon]

The point I'm trying to make is that at least we have a plan in place. In addition to this, we also have the sort of development system that will allow us to develop our players and give them the best chance of success.

As I said in the post, the odds are that a number of them will fail. The difference between now and 3 years ago is that our chances of succeeding with what we've got is far greater now than then. The reason so many have fallen by the wayside, or not measured up in the past was the lack of specific player development and coaching.

Mini is a good example of someone who would've been lost under the old system. He has reinvented himself with assistance from within and now has a decent shot at an effective senior career.

How do you think Adelaide has remained so competitive over the journey when they've had so few top ten picks (only one I think, and that was Lawrence Angwin!)? The answer is their recruitment and development system has been so much better than ours. Not anymore. Sit back and enjoy. I'm sure the next few years will prove me right.

I tend to agree with this. It never ceased to amaze me how some teams always turned out very good players, but we always seemed to have a core of "stars" and then struggled from there.

They key is develoment. Good clubs know how to do it. Wait and see how quickly the WCE regroup and are back in contention.

You mentioned Adelaide, but don't forget Sydney, also.

Hopefully, this is what Footy First is all about. Setting up long term success once and for all. With the training facilities due to come in a few years, and the appointment off some of the best Off-field people... I'm vey optimistic of the future.

I agree - Ive often marvelled at Adelaide/Sydney/Port even West Coasts ability to regernerate quickly while we waited for the second coming of Plugger...

I can see we have a strategy in place and I have been happy so far in the clubs ability in recent years to get something useful at trade for not much.....Im also happy we are really using the rookie list now....as to who the steals were/are...time will tell

[the shadow]

The Trojan entered, did some damage, felt guilty, liked what he saw and decided to stay. He is now a solid citizen. Always happy to admit when I'm wrong. I must admit though, at the time SR it wasn't looking all that promising. I stand corrected. The Trojans are furious. One of their own has betrayed them!

[Legendary]

The Australians lost to South Africa and Ponting, Hussey, Hayden and Lee had terrible matches, contributing virtually nothing.

Your good players have to play well for you to be successful, and it's the same in footy and with the Saints.

We need Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo, Goddard, Hudghton, Milne, Montagna, Gram and S. Fisher to play well if we are going to win matches ... others must contribute and will be a big part of our success ... but our "stars" must show why they are labelled such.

[bergholt]

They key is develoment. Good clubs know how to do it. Wait and see how quickly the WCE regroup and are back in contention.

I reckon the best team for development has to be Collingwood, much as it pains me to say it. For the last few years they've had basically no stars (Buckley excepted) but have finished in the finals each year thanks to kids coming through, competition for places, etc, because they develop and play their kids.

Look at Cloke, Thomas, Pendlebury, who have averaged about 20 games a year since being drafted; though they were all pretty highly rated, I guess. Marty Clarke came from nowhere - since the 2006 Rookie Draft he's played 34 games in two years. Goldsack was taken in the fourth round the same year and has played 33 in two years. Nathan Brown was an early pick but getting a full season out of a 19 year old is nevertheless pretty impressive. And there's plenty of kids of varying ability; Rusling, Toovey, Cox, Anthony, Cook, Wellingham; even players like Dawes, McCarthy and Reid; who've all popped up here or there.

OK, so they've got the cash, when not wasting it on speculative business. But they spend it cleverly, pumping a lot of it into training facilities and specialist coaches and development work. This is the model for St Kilda - no matter which picks you use, you have to turn them into players.

[axcellence]

They key is develoment. Good clubs know how to do it. Wait and see how quickly the WCE regroup and are back in contention.

I reckon the best team for development has to be Collingwood, much as it pains me to say it. For the last few years they've had basically no stars (Buckley excepted) but have finished in the finals each year thanks to kids coming through, competition for places, etc, because they develop and play their kids.

Look at Cloke, Thomas, Pendlebury, who have averaged about 20 games a year since being drafted; though they were all pretty highly rated, I guess. Marty Clarke came from nowhere - since the 2006 Rookie Draft he's played 34 games in two years. Goldsack was taken in the fourth round the same year and has played 33 in two years. Nathan Brown was an early pick but getting a full season out of a 19 year old is nevertheless pretty impressive. And there's plenty of kids of varying ability; Rusling, Toovey, Cox, Anthony, Cook, Wellingham; even players like Dawes, McCarthy and Reid; who've all popped up here or there.

OK, so they've got the cash, when not wasting it on speculative business. But they spend it cleverly, pumping a lot of it into training facilities and specialist coaches and development work. This is the model for St Kilda - no matter which picks you use, you have to turn them into players.

To be honest - I think Pies development isn't all that great. A lot of their recent success has to do more with having 18 games in Victoria year after year. Not surprisingly, when Victorian teams did well towards the latter half of the year - Pies took a dive.

Maybe I am biased - but when you replace a 30+ year old veteran with another 30+ vet as captain... it says something. Now they've got Maxwell... but really......

Yes, they've had a bit of success with some of their kids - but with the amount of money they've had - it's been possible for them to get some international rookies and so on.

[WayneJudson42]

The Australians lost to South Africa and Ponting, Hussey, Hayden and Lee had terrible matches, contributing virtually nothing.

Your good players have to play well for you to be successful, and it's the same in footy and with the Saints.

We need Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo, Goddard, Hudghton, Milne, Montagna, Gram and S. Fisher to play well if we are going to win matches ... others must contribute and will be a big part of our success ... but our "stars" must show why they are labelled such.

Yes and no. You can predict whathese names will bring to the table every week. The point of the thread is about list management... not another "bottom 6" argument. So you're a bit off topic with your post.

This is more about ensuring that all players have the opportunity and facilities to fulfill their potential, addressing current shortfalls in the lst, and ensuring that long term, you have a gradual improvement of new players to successfully replace retiring players.

Apart from GArdiner (who came as part of the deal) and to a lesser degree M Clarke, I reckon they've doe pretty well at topping up, as well as keeping an eye on the long term. IMO.

[jays]

i think ww have done well this year, but saints never seem to give the kids ago look and hawkes rookies get some game time and come good when was the last saints player to be given a real go

[sainteronline]

You can go on about short-term, medium-term and long-term strategies all you like

I am sick of hearing about strategies and list management

the fact is

that nothing short of a grand final (appearance at least)

or a flag

is good enough

for the next two years

Geelong were level with us (imho behind us) three years ago

Hawthorn were well behind us, even going into this year

it is time for a flag

tell me if we don't make the grand final

will you accept "confidential information" as the reason why

[plugger66]

I would have thought the last 3 years has had more short term fixes than the previous 5 years by a long way. .

Not sure why you say that...sure there has beena lot in the last 3 years....but there were a lot in the previous 5 as well.

Rix
Knoble
Ackland
Guerra
Gram
Watts
Brooks
Fiora
McGough
Callaghan
Gale
Capuano
Voss
GTrain
Lawrence
Penny
Hamill
Black

Not sure you can have Hamill, G, Black, Penny,Voss, Gram and some of the others on the short term fix list. i was talking about King, MG, Clarke, Birss, Gardiner and some others as players that are short term fixes or very doubtful to make it types ala McGough, Capuano, Callaghan and Knoble

[meher baba]

I would have thought the last 3 years has had more short term fixes than the previous 5 years by a long way. .

Not sure why you say that...sure there has beena lot in the last 3 years....but there were a lot in the previous 5 as well.

Rix
Knoble
Ackland
Guerra
Gram
Watts
Brooks
Fiora
McGough
Callaghan
Gale
Capuano
Voss
GTrain
Lawrence
Penny
Hamill
Black

Not sure you can have Hamill, G, Black, Penny,Voss, Gram and some of the others on the short term fix list. i was talking about King, MG, Clarke, Birss, Gardiner and some others as players that are short term fixes or very doubtful to make it types ala McGough, Capuano, Callaghan and Knoble

plugger66, you are experiencing a problem with translation here.

Let me translate some sRrspeak for you

"Short-term fix" = any recruitment decision under GT which didn't work out well. Does not apply to poor/questionable recruitment decisions made after GT was sacked (eg, Howard, Birss, M Clarke, M Gardiner, C Gardiner, etc, etc.), which come under the category of "improved list management strategy".

"Topping up" = see "Short-term fix"

"Poor list management" = see "Short-term fix"

"Wasted draft pick" = see "Short-term fix"

"Living in the present rather than building for the future" = see "Short-term fix"

"Poor use of the rookie list" = see "Short-term fix"

And etc.

[WayneJudson42]

I would have thought the last 3 years has had more short term fixes than the previous 5 years by a long way. .

Not sure why you say that...sure there has beena lot in the last 3 years....but there were a lot in the previous 5 as well.

Rix
Knoble
Ackland
Guerra
Gram
Watts
Brooks
Fiora
McGough
Callaghan
Gale
Capuano
Voss
GTrain
Lawrence
Penny
Hamill
Black

Not sure you can have Hamill, G, Black, Penny,Voss, Gram and some of the others on the short term fix list. i was talking about King, MG, Clarke, Birss, Gardiner and some others as players that are short term fixes or very doubtful to make it types ala McGough, Capuano, Callaghan and Knoble

Calling all Sainters
If we all have faith
If we all believe
If we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya
And, most importantly, if we find a way of slipping him some aggro pills
In 2009, MB will get over GT.

[Saints43]

I would have thought the last 3 years has had more short term fixes than the previous 5 years by a long way. .

Not sure why you say that...sure there has beena lot in the last 3 years....but there were a lot in the previous 5 as well.

Rix
Knoble
Ackland
Guerra
Gram
Watts
Brooks
Fiora
McGough
Callaghan
Gale
Capuano
Voss
GTrain
Lawrence
Penny
Hamill
Black

Not sure you can have Hamill, G, Black, Penny,Voss, Gram and some of the others on the short term fix list. i was talking about King, MG, Clarke, Birss, Gardiner and some others as players that are short term fixes or very doubtful to make it types ala McGough, Capuano, Callaghan and Knoble

Which seasons saw Callaghan, Gale & Lawrence recruited to St Kilda? Were they even brought to the club in the last eight years?

[WayneJudson42]

So, if we recruit "top up" players and they work out... it doesn't count. But if they are duds, then it's short term fixes?

I'm confused by the comparisons.

Also, Wasn't Hamil, G, Voss, Crapuano, Lawrence recruited before GT? ...8 years ago IIRC.

[Animal Enclosure]

The Australians lost to South Africa and Ponting, Hussey, Hayden and Lee had terrible matches, contributing virtually nothing.

Your good players have to play well for you to be successful, and it's the same in footy and with the Saints.

We need Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo, Goddard, Hudghton, Milne, Montagna, Gram and S. Fisher to play well if we are going to win matches ... others must contribute and will be a big part of our success ... but our "stars" must show why they are labelled such.

Yes and no. You can predict whathese names will bring to the table every week.

Sorry WJ, have to disagree with you there. Roo, Lendog, BJ, Max & Chips have been lock ins for consistently high standard performances. Bally is not the player he once was & despite never having his efforts questioned, has been inconsistent at times. Dal, Yapper & Gram are exceptionally inconsistent & hurt the team regularly with poor performances.

Dal & Gram (& I'd add Joey in as well) were the most disappointing players in 08 IMO. All supremely skilled but just didn't perform anywhere near their capabilities.

On the OP, a great post & I agree with every point. Well said.

[WayneJudson42]

The Australians lost to South Africa and Ponting, Hussey, Hayden and Lee had terrible matches, contributing virtually nothing.

Your good players have to play well for you to be successful, and it's the same in footy and with the Saints.

We need Riewoldt, Hayes, Ball, Dal Santo, Goddard, Hudghton, Milne, Montagna, Gram and S. Fisher to play well if we are going to win matches ... others must contribute and will be a big part of our success ... but our "stars" must show why they are labelled such.

Yes and no. You can predict whathese names will bring to the table every week.

Sorry WJ, have to disagree with you there. Roo, Lendog, BJ, Max & Chips have been lock ins for consistently high standard performances. Bally is not the player he once was & despite never having his efforts questioned, has been inconsistent at times. Dal, Yapper & Gram are exceptionally inconsistent & hurt the team regularly with poor performances.

Dal & Gram (& I'd add Joey in as well) were the most disappointing players in 08 IMO. All supremely skilled but just didn't perform anywhere near their capabilities.

On the OP, a great post & I agree with every point. Well said.

The way I read it is that you onl need your good players to to their max and you win.