what we learnt from the hawks

[Solar]

From watching the Grand final, you can always find little reasons why the premier won and we did not make the granny. Here are a couple of things we can take with us....

1. They took their chances. Yes geelong butched some easy shots at goal but the hawks took the chances tey got and won the flag. This needs to be drilled into the playing group and we need to weed out those who are not strong enough above the shoulders to push through the nerves of a moment and score.

2. The hawks have a handy bunch of inside midfielders and their rebound from half back is similar to ours. Where they are streaks ahead and was able to push geelong to extreme is their group of outside runners who break lines. This means they not only gut run to get into space to offer an option but they have foot skills so good they can pin point hit ups 40-50 metres away. I'm thinking of young, guerra, dew, hodge. This is what we need to focus on developing.

3. They are tough. I'm not sure how many of our players are willing to physically hurt themselves. I'm not sure how many are willing to go into a pack and get killed or run their guts out to the stage where they nearly break down. I have a feeling that our injury curse has created a bunch of players scared of pushing the extremes. Even bally, who is a warrior and is willing to push himself back into packs seems unwilling to gut run. I want to see the fitness staff to step into stage two. Tell the players they have the injuries under control and hopefully they will trust them enough to start building on the fitness base. I want to see a focus on gut running, doing the usual sessions then add an extra run. Build up on it so when the game is up for grabs our players run harder into space.....

So where do we go? Apart from some smart trading (skillful players, solid players, smart players) and drafting some skillful midfielders and key back there are a few things we can work with in this squad.

Get a HUGE fitness base under the likes of kosi and gwilt. Kosi needs to be able to lead into space. I would focus on playing him as a third tall. Not a full forward but a CHF which would allow roo to float further up the field. Gwilt needs to be developed into a hard runner outside midfielder. His racking kick breaks lines and he needs work along with BJ to develop this string to our bow. For mine it's all above the shoulders with jimmy. He has everything you need to play this game, just needs to want it enough and get fit enough. Work on his intensity!

Allen and mcenvoy need to be developed. Allen has bulked up a little and needs to once again work on his fitness base. Looked the most dangerous as an 18 year old as a lead up forward. Full forward is his if he wants it enough. Huge preseson needed from this kid.

I believe that the backline looks very good, the squad gets what ross his trying to sell. Our inside midfield could improve but it is not what is holding us back. It's the tough running midfielders and option creating half forwards that are the difference between a 9 goal prelim loss and grand final win.

Will be a very interesting next 2-3 years for this club.

[borderbarry]

Am I correct in that Ross Lyon said shortly after the game that he would be looking at those who dont like a contest? We have too many soft outside players on our list. We need to gain more speed and hardness.

[Pilgram]

great thread mate.
agreed, the hawks were tough.

i dont think anyone can critique the saints for not being tough however.
one of the toughest things i saw all year,
was kosi manhandle a hawk that flew into our box.
and what happened,
- he copped a week.
absolute bullcarp!

look, one thing we can learn from hawthorn,
is that their elite training facility at waverley is what we need,
and will have.

it makes a big difference to know,
that you dont, or wont, have to turn up to morabbin for a recovery.

we learn alot of things.
we learn that geelong are truly a softer unit than hawthorn,
and that their time at the top was brief if not inspiring.

[Solar]

personally I think speed is overated. The key to the hawks style is that they work hard in the clinches, and get it out to players who work hard to gain space and break lines with thier long kicking.

No point getting some players with speed when they are not willing to work hard to gain the space they need. Plus when they do get that space they need to be able to break the lines with their kicking skills. Only BJ is able to do this.

[rodgerfox]

What did we learn from the Hawks?

We learnt that you do take injured players into finals.

We learnt that you do 'top up'.

We learnt that unskilled players are of value.

We learnt that an ordinary bottom 6 can still win a flag.

We learnt that rejects can play in flags.

We learnt that undisciplined footy can win flags.

We learnt that you don't need a backline to win flags.

We learnt that slow midfields can win flags.

[chook23]

What did we learn from the Hawks?

We learnt that you do take injured players into finals.

We learnt that you do 'top up'.

We learnt that unskilled players are of value.

We learnt that an ordinary bottom 6 can still win a flag.

We learnt that rejects can play in flags.

We learnt that undisciplined footy can win flags.

We learnt that you don't need a backline to win flags.

We learnt that slow midfields can win flags.

Good thread until this.............

[Solar]

I'll add to the thread

sometimes it's worth punting on a older player if it will give you something you crave. The hawks punted on both guerra and dew. Both are great kicks and solid bodies.

Neither are fast, neither are skinny or tall. But both have experience and GOOD FOOT SKILLS

Just something to think about when trading. I would look at goal kicking midfielder with good kicking skills. Green? O'Keefe?

[Solar]

great thread mate.
agreed, the hawks were tough.

i dont think anyone can critique the saints for not being tough however.
one of the toughest things i saw all year,
was kosi manhandle a hawk that flew into our box.
and what happened,
- he copped a week.
absolute bullcarp!

look, one thing we can learn from hawthorn,
is that their elite training facility at waverley is what we need,
and will have.

it makes a big difference to know,
that you dont, or wont, have to turn up to morabbin for a recovery.

we learn alot of things.
we learn that geelong are truly a softer unit than hawthorn,
and that their time at the top was brief if not inspiring.

agreed, it's hard to work the players up to an elite standard in below standard facilities. Seaford can't come quick enough IMO

[Geezer]

what i learnt -
that brown and gold are two colours that dont really go well together.
one of the worst club strips in sport anywhere in the world.
and the entire world got to see it last weekend.

[Superboot]

what i learnt -
that brown and gold are two colours that dont really go well together.
one of the worst club strips in sport anywhere in the world.and the entire world got to see it last weekend.

Absolutely agree, but it's about the only thing left we can knock

[Banger2Plugger]

I do believe there is only one place in this world for brown and gold - and it ain't the AFL - OR - I might be wrong - perhaps AFL Headquarters and Hawthorn do share something in common

[Bernard Shakey]

The Stranglers?

[bigcarl]

we would do well to learn that there is much to be said for having two gun key forwards and that attacking football can still win you a premiership.

also that if you get there and keep the pressure on anything can happen on the final saturday in september ... even against previously unbeatable
opponents.

[Sobraz]

Foot skills are oh so important... Every player must be able to hurt the opposition with their feet, or at worst put the ball to a creative, offensive position...

The Hawks have an incredible amount of brilliantly foot skilled players...

Hodge, Guerra and Dew would all be in the top 10 kicks in the comp, and Younge wouldnt be far behind...

We have several players who cannot kick at AFL level... Hell, some of the players that played in the prelim are poor VFL kicks... Hawks have noone as bad as CJ, Eddy, Gilbo, Mini, Max.... Whilst they bring other attributes to the team (especially Gilbo and Max, who i love as players), 5 or 6 poor kicking players is far too many...

I havnt even touched on the kicking for goal skills... Aside from the semi final V the pies, we were poor all year...

We need improvement in skills and ball movement if we are to get anywhere...

[milney044]

What did we learn?
That 22 contributors will get you a flag, that relying heavily on one key forward won't win you a flag.
Buddy had no impact on the game for nearly 3 quarters but that did not unsettle the Hawks. They had plenty of other options, midfielders kicking goals, Bateman's goal was a classic example of how effective hard running can be.

I agree with the previous posts that we don't see this enough from our mids. Now i don't even like Bateman but he is the type of player we lack. He is hard at it annnd he runs, he is quick but very strong for his size plus has great foot skills.

Look at Hawthorn's midfield, you could say each and every one of them has the "full package". Sam Mitchel while undisciplined on Saturday is hard at it, runs the lines and can hit a target. The same can be said for Hodge (who i know spends a lot of time down back), Sewell and even Lewis. They don't actually kick that many goals but their forward line is far more damaging than ours - Buddy, Roughead, Williams, Rioli and Osbourne meaning the midfield don't have to contribute as much on the scoreboard.

You compare that forward line to ours which consists of Riewoldt, Milne, Kos and Schneider and we're already down one forward, considering our next highest goal scorer is Gram with 18. Their 5 forwards contributed a total of 250 goals in the H&A season, our 5 leading goal kickers contributed 180. I guess this shows how much we miss the power forward like Fraser who on his day would have contributed 80+ goals for us; making our forward line extremely similar to that of Hawthorn's.
However those days are long gone, so we need either another strong avenue to goal or more mids who can contribute on the score board.

Allen could be our saviour, or, he could be the next Barry Brooks. We must find out soon.

[Moccha]

I don't think we've learnt much

[vacuous space]

What did we learn?
That 22 contributors will get you a flag, that relying heavily on one key forward won't win you a flag.

I don't know about 22 contributors. Croad left early, and Renouf didn't do much for most of the game. Ling did a good job of keeping Mitchell quiet. Roughead and Franklin were held pretty well. Hawthorn got smashed at the clearances and lost the contested ball. Geelong had plenty of opportunities to bury them, but failed. Full credit to Hawthorn for making the most of their opportunities. I'd say their flag comes much more down to the heroics of a smaller group than a whole team effort.

[rodgerfox]

What did we learn?
That 22 contributors will get you a flag, that relying heavily on one key forward won't win you a flag.

I don't know about 22 contributors. Croad left early, and Renouf didn't do much for most of the game. Ling did a good job of keeping Mitchell quiet. Roughead and Franklin were held pretty well. Hawthorn got smashed at the clearances and lost the contested ball. Geelong had plenty of opportunities to bury them, but failed. Full credit to Hawthorn for making the most of their opportunities. I'd say their flag comes much more down to the heroics of a smaller group than a whole team effort.

Correct.

Yet another footy myth busted!!

[milney044]

Yes but when Croad got injured Roughead and Brown did their bit. Sam Mitchel was tagged but they still had others who could be relied on to step up ala Hodge owning the backline despite Geelong's forward thrusts.

Mooney let them down on the scoreboard, Hawks rushed a heap of their behinds, something like 10. The Hawks really took their chances through not having to rely on Mitchel to break the tag or Buddy to kick 6. Stewie Dew was able to do his part, it only took a 10 minute purple patch for him to really put the pressure on Geelong. Rioli again didn't dominate having only 10 possessions, but they were 10 crucial touches that helped his side get over the line. Little things across the board got their side over the line because they didn't have to rely heavily on 4 or 5 players. Without Riewoldt's second half this year or a bit of Milne magic here and there we probably wouldn't have made finals, i don't consider that healthy.

[HarveysDeciple]

Yes but when Croad got injured Roughead and Brown did their bit. Sam Mitchel was tagged but they still had others who could be relied on to step up ala Hodge owning the backline despite Geelong's forward thrusts.

Mooney let them down on the scoreboard, Hawks rushed a heap of their behinds, something like 10. The Hawks really took their chances through not having to rely on Mitchel to break the tag or Buddy to kick 6. Stewie Dew was able to do his part, it only took a 10 minute purple patch for him to really put the pressure on Geelong. Rioli again didn't dominate having only 10 possessions, but they were 10 crucial touches that helped his side get over the line. Little things across the board got their side over the line because they didn't have to rely heavily on 4 or 5 players. Without Riewoldt's second half this year or a bit of Milne magic here and there we probably wouldn't have made finals, i don't consider that healthy.

Correct.

One of the key's to having an even spread is that when the "stars" are down, players step up.
I thought losing Croad would hurt them badly as one of Mooney or Lonergan would cut loose, (Mooney did to some extent he just missed shots), but the hawks were able to cover it by sending Brown and briefly roughead down back to assist.
Mitchell was down, but the likes of Ellis and Young (prior to injury). played nearly the best games of their career.

[Spinner]

Every single player on that list can kick.......Amazing isn't it....

Quite different to the Saints list.

[HarveysDeciple]

Every single player on that list can kick.......Amazing isn't it....

Quite different to the Saints list.

On the whole our skills are very very poor.

We'd rank bottom 4 or bottom 6 I would think.

[Mooksy]

Point # 3 is the most pertinent. Our only tough midfield nuts are 7,10 and 14.

[Con Gorozidis]

when its your turn to go you have to go and compete. thats what we should have learnt.. just make sure when its your go you compete hard and run hard. thats what the hawks did well. if if u only did a few things you did them well.

half of our guys kind of jog over to a contest and when the other guy bumps them they kind of fall over sprawl around wave their arms a bit and watch the ball get taken away and the put their heads in their heads, shrug the shoulders and jog off away from the play back to their position. i hate watching that.