the spine

[bigcarl]

there's a lot to be said for a having a solid and settled goal-to-goal line-up around which to build a team.

here's my early stab at what ours should look like in 2009 (with a possible understudy/alternative in brackets).

it looks pretty good.

FB: HUDGHTON (Gilbert)
the club needs to persuade max to go around again. conceded 27 goals for the season to his direct opponents and there's a good argument that he should have been all australian full back. the best stopper playing the game, without a doubt.

HB: BLAKE (Goose)
one of the league's truly underrated players, played some terrific football for us this season after being settled into a position for the first time in his career.

C: HAYES (Dal Santo)
rugged, durable and a prolific winner of possessions, lenny's our best option here.

HF: RIEWOLDT (Goose)
the best centre half forward in the game and it will be reflected in the brownlow votes tonight.

FF: BJ (Riewoldt)
There's a school of thought that BJ should be played as a midfielder (where he's been very effective), but i'd rather get the goal-to-goal structure right before thinking about the midfield.

there's no sense in trying to restrict teams like geelong and hawthorn to losing scores. to beat them you have to outscore them and we've lacked a goal-kicking tall forward apart from riewoldt.

i've refrained from pencilling goose into a key position because no-one knows if we'll ever see him at his best again. but fully fit and in the barnstorming form he showed a few years back, he'd be an obvious alternative for chb or chf.

[Richter]

FB. - we're in trouble if Max doesn't go around again that's for sure. Sam G did not cope with Hawthorn's third best attacker never mind the best. Do not be surprised if Gwilt makes a return to the defence come next year - particularly if Max doesn't go again or gets injured.

FF - BJ!!!!!! No. He's our next great Centreman. The architect from the middle of the park not the bookend.

[bigcarl]

FF - BJ!!!!!! No. He's our next great Centreman. The architect from the middle of the park not the bookend.

i wouldn't describe ff as a bookend. it's a very important key position.
who would you suggest to fill it?

hawthorn has buddy franklin. we have, who, james gwilt?

[Red]

You don't need a great fullforward to win a premiership. You do need a great

midfield. You would be wasting BJ's biggest asset at FF. His decision making.

[bigcarl]

You don't need a great fullforward to win a premiership. You do need a great midfield.

the bulldogs have a great midfield, which spanked geelong's for much of friday night's game ... but they lacked the ability to make it count on the scoreboard.

You would be wasting BJ's biggest asset at FF. His decision making.

full forwards don't make decisions? of course they do. decisions that result in goals.

[Richter]

FF - BJ!!!!!! No. He's our next great Centreman. The architect from the middle of the park not the bookend.

i wouldn't describe ff as a bookend. it's a very important key position.
who would you suggest to fill it?

hawthorn has buddy franklin. we have, who, james gwilt?

Carlton had the Coleman medallist last year and finished at the bottom of the ladder. Slot in the Brownlow medallist, the game's best MIDFIELDER and thewy finish 6 places higher.

Geelong have no traditional FF - they have a forward structure which includes 2 marking Talls - currently Mooney and Lonergan - with a couple of quality medium marking targets - Chapman and Varcoe and two smalls.

I don't see us as needing a replacement ofr raser - rather we are short of a medium marking target.

Instead of a spine think of a pronged fork......

[Thinline]

I like the pronged fork !

[bigcarl]

Geelong have no traditional FF - they have a forward structure which includes 2 marking Talls - currently Mooney and Lonergan - with a couple of quality medium marking targets - Chapman and Varcoe and two smalls.

they have class all over their forward line whereas the quality of ours falls away very quickly after riewoldt and milne.

gwilt and charlie gardiner would be lucky to get a game in our backline, so i'm not sure they're the answer forward of the ball.

i've always been a fan of getting your best players closer to the goal where they can hurt the opposition most where it counts ... on the scoreboard.

my forward line

HF: dal santo, riewoldt, milne

F: schneider, BJ, kosi (changing ruck)

with that sort of a set up our midfield might get an adequete return for their efforts and a lot more entries inside 50 would result in goals to st kilda.

i don't think it's too much to ask that the forward line has as much talent as the backline and at the moment it just doesn't.

i can't see the one dimensional kick-it-to-roo approach ever yielding a premiership to be honest.

anyway, how about an answer to my question? who should be our full forward?

[Richter]

they have class all over their forward line whereas the quality of ours falls away very quickly after riewoldt and milne.

...............

i've always been a fan of getting your best players closer to the goal where they can hurt the opposition most where it counts ... on the scoreboard.

...............

with that sort of a set up our midfield might get an adequete return for their efforts and a lot more entries inside 50 would result in goals to st kilda.

i don't think it's too much to ask that the forward line has as much talent as the backline and at the moment it just doesn't.

i can't see the one dimensional kick-it-to-roo approach ever yielding a premiership to be honest.

anyway, how about an answer to my question? who should be our full forward?

Saints Talls(Roo, Kosi)>Geelong Talls (Mooney, Lonergan)

Geelong Smalls (Johnson, Stokes)>Saints Smalls (Milne, Schneider)

Geelong Mediums (Chapman, Varcoe, Johnson (plays as crumber AND medium)>>>>> Saints Medium (Gwilt, Allen, Charlie G)

Geelong's back=up(Hawkins, Djerkerra)>> Saint's back-up (Allen, Charlie G.....??Howard, who else?)

--------------------------------------

So the question is not who should be our FF but how do we develop additional routes to goal - any team should have 4 routes to goal

1/ Primary marking target: we have Roo

2/ Secondary marking target: we have Kosi, but that is not enough - we desperately need a quality medium marking target - like Aaron used to give us.

3/ Smalls - we have Milne and Schneider.

4/ Midfield contributions - we don't have this. Perhaps Gram playing more as a mid would add this. BJ too now that he's going to be in the middle more.

-------------------------

In the two finals games we lost we got about the right reward for our midfield's efforts. In case you missed it Geelong's and Hawthorn's mid.s killed us. Collingwood's mid actually matched us but smart use of the footy, better efficiency in front of goal and clever defensive skills and tactics saw us to as easy win.

(Sure I've dodged your question about the FF - because in the pronged fork structure you don't need an out-an-out FF)

[bobmurray]

On 774 on Saturday Night near the end of the game McClure asked Alves
what area of the team did the Saints need to bolster to take the next step
and Stan said...DEFENCE.....he said StKilda's defence is a real worry as it is not a springboard for attack,let alone being able to stop forwards from dominating.....

Buddy got towelled by Max but Roughhead and Williams picked up the slack....

I think we need better players in Defence,in the Midfield and up Forward.

A bit more quality on the bench wouldn't hurt either....(=depth)

Overall i just want them to get the mix right so that we can win a flag

[bigcarl]

Instead of a spine think of a pronged fork

have a close look at a fork next time you see one. you will notice it has a strong spine running along it without which it is structurally unsound and will fall to pieces.

can't see anything wrong with wanting our strongest possible goal-to-goal line to be honest.

you are assuming that the way geelong sets up is the only way to do it. sure they are the benchmark (for the moment), but there are other effective ways of kicking winning scores (hawthorn is a good example).

aside from a poor forward set up, i think the game plan needs a lot of work.

we are too focussed on stopping and not enough on creating the play ourselves.

[bigcarl]

Buddy got towelled by Max but Roughhead and Williams picked up the slack

that's what i want our attack to be able to do to other teams. so when they shut down roo there is always someone else there to be able to pick up the slack.

[saintjake]

Geelong have no traditional FF - they have a forward structure which includes 2 marking Talls - currently Mooney and Lonergan - with a couple of quality medium marking targets - Chapman and Varcoe and two smalls.

they have class all over their forward line whereas the quality of ours falls away very quickly after riewoldt and milne.

gwilt and charlie gardiner would be lucky to get a game in our backline, so i'm not sure they're the answer forward of the ball.

i've always been a fan of getting your best players closer to the goal where they can hurt the opposition most where it counts ... on the scoreboard.

my forward line

HF: dal santo, riewoldt, milne

F: schneider, BJ, kosi (changing ruck)

with that sort of a set up our midfield might get an adequete return for their efforts and a lot more entries inside 50 would result in goals to st kilda.

i don't think it's too much to ask that the forward line has as much talent as the backline and at the moment it just doesn't.

i can't see the one dimensional kick-it-to-roo approach ever yielding a premiership to be honest.

anyway, how about an answer to my question? who should be our full forward?

did you come out backwards?
lets put our most skillful player at full foward.
where he is wasted.
good thought.

[bigcarl]

lets put our most skillful player at full foward.
where he is wasted.
good thought.

hawthorn has their best player at full forward and they are in the grand final. it's a key position that we need to take seriously.

[saintjake]

THEY ARE COMPLETLY DIFFERENT PLAYERS!!!

[bigcarl]

THEY ARE COMPLETLY DIFFERENT PLAYERS!!!

they're both good footballers though

[plugger66]

You don't need a great fullforward to win a premiership. You do need a great

midfield. You would be wasting BJ's biggest asset at FF. His decision making.

Correct. Geelong and WCE proved that. Even when Sydney won it was the midfield.

[bigcarl]

You don't need a great fullforward to win a premiership. You do need a great

midfield. You would be wasting BJ's biggest asset at FF. His decision making.

Correct. Geelong and WCE proved that. Even when Sydney won it was the midfield.

in that case let's put riewoldt on the ball. he's a good player. he should bolster our on ball division.

seriously, there's a lot to be said for having a good chf and ff. doesn't necessarily win you a premiership, but they are positions that need good players in them.

[plugger66]

You don't need a great fullforward to win a premiership. You do need a great

midfield. You would be wasting BJ's biggest asset at FF. His decision making.

Correct. Geelong and WCE proved that. Even when Sydney won it was the midfield.

in that case let's put riewoldt on the ball. he's a good player. he should bolster our on ball division.

He has all attributes of a forward but not many of an onballer so he stays up forward. Play the best players in their best positions.

[bigcarl]

You don't need a great fullforward to win a premiership. You do need a great

midfield. You would be wasting BJ's biggest asset at FF. His decision making.

Correct. Geelong and WCE proved that. Even when Sydney won it was the midfield.

in that case let's put riewoldt on the ball. he's a good player. he should bolster our on ball division.

He has all attributes of a forward but not many of an onballer so he stays up forward. Play the best players in their best positions.

well you guys might be satisfied with fourth. i'm not and imo we need some major changes (both structural and gameplan) to progress.

one of them ought to be to find another key forward.

one answer might be to pray for a miracle and goose makes a return to full fitness and form. he could hold down chf and roo could go to ff.

that's a bit of a longshot, though, given his injury history.

[plugger66]

You don't need a great fullforward to win a premiership. You do need a great

midfield. You would be wasting BJ's biggest asset at FF. His decision making.

Correct. Geelong and WCE proved that. Even when Sydney won it was the midfield.

in that case let's put riewoldt on the ball. he's a good player. he should bolster our on ball division.

He has all attributes of a forward but not many of an onballer so he stays up forward. Play the best players in their best positions.

well you guys might be satisfied with fourth. i'm not and imo we need some major changes (both structural and gameplan) to progress.

one of them ought to be to find another key forward.

I am far from satisfied but moving our best up and coming onballer to FF isnt going forward. Our skills in the middle arent good enough as it is without getting rid of a best kick. He maybe a good goalkcking mid as well which we lack the most of.

[bigcarl]

You don't need a great fullforward to win a premiership. You do need a great

midfield. You would be wasting BJ's biggest asset at FF. His decision making.

Correct. Geelong and WCE proved that. Even when Sydney won it was the midfield.

in that case let's put riewoldt on the ball. he's a good player. he should bolster our on ball division.

He has all attributes of a forward but not many of an onballer so he stays up forward. Play the best players in their best positions.

well you guys might be satisfied with fourth. i'm not and imo we need some major changes (both structural and gameplan) to progress.

one of them ought to be to find another key forward.

I am far from satisfied but moving our best up and coming onballer to FF isnt going forward. Our skills in the middle arent good enough as it is without getting rid of a best kick. He maybe a good goalkcking mid as well which we lack the most of.

how about some ideas then plugger? you're pretty good at shooting down other people's intiatives but don't offer much yourself.

[plugger66]

You don't need a great fullforward to win a premiership. You do need a great

midfield. You would be wasting BJ's biggest asset at FF. His decision making.

Correct. Geelong and WCE proved that. Even when Sydney won it was the midfield.

in that case let's put riewoldt on the ball. he's a good player. he should bolster our on ball division.

He has all attributes of a forward but not many of an onballer so he stays up forward. Play the best players in their best positions.

well you guys might be satisfied with fourth. i'm not and imo we need some major changes (both structural and gameplan) to progress.

one of them ought to be to find another key forward.

I am far from satisfied but moving our best up and coming onballer to FF isnt going forward. Our skills in the middle arent good enough as it is without getting rid of a best kick. He maybe a good goalkcking mid as well which we lack the most of.

how about some ideas then plugger? you're pretty good at shooting down other people's intiatives but don't offer much yourself.

Rooy at FF where he basically played most of the second half of the year and hope Allen comes on. We need a medium marking forward but i am more interested in getting more run through the midfield. That will help the forwards.

[bigcarl]

hope Allen comes on.

is that all you've got? how many goals did he kick for casey this season just out of interest? would he get a game in our backline?

[plugger66]

hope Allen comes on.

is that all you've got? how many goals did he kick for casey this season just out of interest?

23. I beleive. It is about the midfield then the forwards will deliver more.