A minor quibble about the coaching

[meher baba]

I thought that Lyon went ok last night and his coaching didn't contribute much to our loss: which was mainly because (a) everything clicked for the Hawks, as it can do for teams (and, if it does again next week, Geelong will have some problems) and (b) because a few of our weak points were uncovered

It is those weak points which Lyon and his brains trust need to think about over summer. He's largely thrown away the Swans text book now, but Lyon still doesn't seem fully to appreciate the value of a fully-staffed midfield

Only a coach who had spent as long a time as Lyon watching Kirk, J McVeigh, Buchanan et al running around a postage stamp-sized ground like the SCG could possibly have thought Fiora rather than Birss would be an adequate replacement for Ball in a big game on the MCG

Its all very well to base your tactics around the likes of BJ and Raph and Fisher running and carrying the ball out of the back. It worked well against the Pies. But playing on the MCG against a team with a really dangerous forward line like the Hawks, you need to fight harder in the midfield

This was not the first game under Lyon where we have gone in light in the midfield, and it has not usually worked

Hard-working players like Eddy and Jones are lockdown midfield defenders at best, and Gram and Fiora are genuine outside players. Armo simply isn't ready yet. McQualter is a genuine inside player but doesn't win enough ball. And Schneider ain't a midfielder

The only real midfield attacking threats we had were Joey, Lenny and Dal and, being outnumbered as they were, the Hawks could easily manouvre them out of the action (Lenny playing on one leg didn't help either).

Lyon needs to get with the program and work on strengthening our midfield.
Some of it is about the cattle we have: its a shame Armo and McQualter aren't better than they are. Was McEvoy the best possible use of our high draft pick last year? Can Steven help?

But some of it seems to be about Lyon's mindset as well

Footy strategy moves on very fast nowadays. I reckon that the 2005 Swans wouldn't have gotten within 6 goals of the Hawks last night with their lockdown style of play (although, of course, they would have gotten a better run with the umps than we did)

[saintsrus]

I agree, it keeps coming back to the ball coming out quickly when you have Roo and kosi waiting to pounce, with Milney and Snides at their feet, we never take advantage of this.
Roo has to do something remarkable to get a goal the way we play. Too much second guessing.
It will be nice to have Luke Ball back there and feeding out to Dal (if hes still there) and another tough midfielder.

[Life Long Saint]

I actually thought Lyon had a poor night in the box after his brilliant performance against Collingwood.

The match-up's were too defensive. Blake IS NOT an inside 50 player. He was not the match-up for Hodge. He is not creative player and was never going to hurt the Hawks going forward. By the same token Gram is NOT a defensive player and should not be played where he can be taken out of the play.

I think that CJ should have gone to Rioli, Gram to Hodge and Blake to Lewis...or maybe a hard tag on McLaren and Kennedy.

[JeffDunne]

Only a coach who had spent as long a time as Lyon watching Kirk, J McVeigh, Buchanan et al running around a postage stamp-sized ground like the MCG could possibly have thought Fiora rather than Birss would be an adequate replacement for Ball in a big game on the MCG

I don't understand this point (even allowing for the first MCG being the SCG

Birss seems more of the 'Sydney' type than Fiora.

[boneless23]

I think he over analysed the match ups and tried to think too much outside the square.

Blake should have gone to Roughead from the outset and CJ should have gone to Rioli. Our midfield looked better over the last 6 weeks with the additions of Gram and Goddard into the middle with Fisher providing the run out of Defence. This was nullifed by these match ups and we were back to where we were in Round 12.

[meher baba]

Only a coach who had spent as long a time as Lyon watching Kirk, J McVeigh, Buchanan et al running around a postage stamp-sized ground like the MCG could possibly have thought Fiora rather than Birss would be an adequate replacement for Ball in a big game on the MCG

I don't understand this point (even allowing for the first MCG being the SCG

Birss seems more of the 'Sydney' type than Fiora.

Sorry about the typo, ill go back and fix

The point is that, on a smaller ground, you set up a lot of your attacking plays from the back, so don't need as much attacking power in the midfield. You can get away with more taggers and lockdown players and fewer ball-winners and evasive runners

[Solar]

did not help tha most of the midfield struggled to find the ball. But agree.

Perhaps there was something in what everton said earlier in the week about too any lock down players in the midfield who don't get enough of the ball.

I also believe that we werebadly let down by our Half forwards. The likes of gwilt, schneider and milne in combo with the midfield did not work hard enough to get into space. The game plan was always to move it around short but this can only work if the midfield and forwads are willing to work harder into the space thats avaliable.

The leadership in that second quarter was also shocking but this came about because of our non functioning forward line. Roo couldn't steady the troops unless he came into the midfield (3rd quarter) but then we would lose the only forward willing to work hard enough.

[joffaboy]

I He's largely thrown away the Swans text book now, but Lyon still doesn't seem fully to appreciate the value of a fully-staffed midfield

We dont have a "fully staffed" midfield

Lyon needs to get with the program and work on strengthening our midfield.

Been saying that for about a year. He had to shore up all the other defiecencies left from the previous mismanagement first. The dameage done is difficult to repair in under two seasons

Some of it is about the cattle we have: its a shame Armo and McQualter aren't better than they are. Was McEvoy the best possible use of our high draft pick last year? Can Steven help?

Armo will get better but is one paced like Lenny and Harvs (now gone). McQualter is a fair lock down player but is no star. Steven will be a player but has just turned 18.

We need the overated darlings of our list to step up. Dal Santo, Gram, Joey. All excellent players but bothe the Geelong and Hawk mids have smashed them.

McEvoy was generally believed to be the second best tall in the draft behind Kruezer. he is 18 and big men take some time. Give him a break.

We need some explosiveness in the midfield and some experience now Harvs is gone. Ball will be back but he is not explosive, Lenny is hard at it but not explosive, Dal is a good ball winner but not explosive. I would really go for Cousins while we develop Eddy, and Steven, and Armo.

But some of it seems to be about Lyon's mindset as well

Huh??? Our cattle as you put it is Lyons mindset?? that does not make sense.

Footy strategy moves on very fast nowadays. I reckon that the 2005 Swans wouldn't have gotten within 6 goals of the Hawks last night with their lockdown style of play (although, of course, they would have gotten a better run with the umps than we did)

It was the Hawks lockdown style of play that beat us. Mabye you can appreciate the whole picture from a lounge room, but the Hawks zone and lockdown forced us wide all night, we didn't try to run through the lines at all.
Geelong play the same.

Face it mb you are still on your same old tawdry mantra about Ross Lyon playing a Sydney game. It is nowhere near the Sydney game. We dont play on the SCG, TD and MCG are much bigger and our style is dictated by whom we play.

Mabye one day when you get to a game of AFL you can see how the opposition actually defend and zone off and get a full perspective, not just what a TV director wants you to see

Really you have to get over your fixation with you ill concieved theories. Lyon got our average list to top four. We are just a top four and probably not even that.

Get over it. You were wrong.

[meher baba]

JB. I accept that I couldn't judge the whole setup on telly

But the hawks didn't force us wide at centre bounces

And it isn't simply about the cattle. Someone chose to select Fiora over Birss, to play Gram rather than BJ up the ground and for persisting with Eddy for so long. If Howard was worth re-signing for two years, why wasn't he given a run in the midfield over the season?

The absence of Ball, X and Baker caused us lots of problems last night, but I refuse to see our midfield problems as inevitable

[evertonfc]

Meher, super post.

I'm not sure it's a "Swans mentality", but I'm finding myself increasingly frustrated with some our tactics.

- Too many 'defensive minded' players
- Belief in too many C&D-grade midfielders (over B-graders like Birss)
- Failure to own the corrirdor

Our list is not a top four list. We were pretty lucky to get there; other teams shot themselves in the foot and we had to win by 100+ points in R22.

But we were smashed twice against top four teams. That's where we are at.

We don't have great depth. The progress of our youngsters is sketchy - how many have you genuinely believing they will kick on and make it?

There's so many players with massive question marks. And let's face it, Hawthorn survived last night without some of their best players playing well. How do we survive when our best players flop?

Nada. Nothing. Nil.

Our players don't lift. They fall over. They lack both physical skill and mental strength.

[matrix]

I thought that Lyon went ok last night and his coaching didn't contribute much to our loss: which was mainly because (a) everything clicked for the Hawks, as it can do for teams (and, if it does again next week, Geelong will have some problems) and (b) because a few of our weak points were uncovered

It is those weak points which Lyon and his brains trust need to think about over summer. He's largely thrown away the Swans text book now, but Lyon still doesn't seem fully to appreciate the value of a fully-staffed midfield

Only a coach who had spent as long a time as Lyon watching Kirk, J McVeigh, Buchanan et al running around a postage stamp-sized ground like the SCG could possibly have thought Fiora rather than Birss would be an adequate replacement for Ball in a big game on the MCG

Its all very well to base your tactics around the likes of BJ and Raph and Fisher running and carrying the ball out of the back. It worked well against the Pies. But playing on the MCG against a team with a really dangerous forward line like the Hawks, you need to fight harder in the midfield

This was not the first game under Lyon where we have gone in light in the midfield, and it has not usually worked

Hard-working players like Eddy and Jones are lockdown midfield defenders at best, and Gram and Fiora are genuine outside players. Armo simply isn't ready yet. McQualter is a genuine inside player but doesn't win enough ball. And Schneider ain't a midfielder

The only real midfield attacking threats we had were Joey, Lenny and Dal and, being outnumbered as they were, the Hawks could easily manouvre them out of the action (Lenny playing on one leg didn't help either).

Lyon needs to get with the program and work on strengthening our midfield.
Some of it is about the cattle we have: its a shame Armo and McQualter aren't better than they are. Was McEvoy the best possible use of our high draft pick last year? Can Steven help?

But some of it seems to be about Lyon's mindset as well

Footy strategy moves on very fast nowadays. I reckon that the 2005 Swans wouldn't have gotten within 6 goals of the Hawks last night with their lockdown style of play (although, of course,
they would have gotten a better run with the umps than we did)

seriously......
im worried about u.

and whats this; "Mabye one day when you get to a game of AFL you can see how the opposition actually defend and zone off and get a full perspective, not just what a TV director wants you to see "
r u an armchairy?

[saintsRrising]

I He's largely thrown away the Swans text book now, but Lyon still doesn't seem fully to appreciate the value of a fully-staffed midfield


Lyon needs to get with the program and work on strengthening our midfield.

FFS............the previous management SAW that we had an aging midfield and DID SQUAT ALL about!!!!!!!!!!!

What was done about the KNOWN departure of Powell, Thommo, Pecket, Banger (who by any reasonable assumption 5 or 6 year back would likely have had only a couple of years back but Banger turned out to SUPERMAN!!!!).....and even Black.

Yes we got McGough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Lyon has only had the TWO draft periods to try and fix the MANY structural deficiencies in the list. Rucks and Mids being but two...

So with Mids at least in those two periods we have seen the acquisition of:
*Armo (first roud pick), Steven, Howard, Eddy, Geary, Mini rookied (or is that re-rookied), Birss

That would look to me that Lyon knows the value of the midfield.

MB you are BLIND as to the HUGE damage that GT did to our midfield......and WORSE you are now saying Lyon needs to get with the program on the midfield!!!!!

Get real..face up to the damage that GT did to the midfield and recognise that Lyon is doing as much as can reasonablybe expected!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[saintsRrising]

Meher, super post.

Too many 'defensive minded' players
- .

Maybe if the previous crew had kept aquiring a good to good-ish midfieder per year..every year...we would not have our current problem??

Penny drop perhaps??


RL obviously needs to be whipped for not having grabbed Judd and others.....

How about looking athe picks that RL had available and judging him on the quality gained with it?????


How about recognising that compared with the Hawks and the Cats we simply do not have as many good mids as they do?????

[saintsRrising]

The absence of Ball, X and Baker caused us lots of problems last night, but I refuse to see our midfield problems as inevitable

There you have it....

Write upa list of the Hawks mid...also list the Cats mids...then put it against the saints.

It is pretty stark except for those that refuse to see what is black and white!!!!!!!

they would rather blame the LACK of QUALITY on Lyon's tactics...or this nonsense that he needs to get with the program!!!!!!!! what utter rubbish.

Lyon KNOWS that our midfield is simply not as good and is doing the best he can with it.


Watch EITHER the Cats or Hawks games against the flesh and you will see skillied mids who can win the ball and then hit a target just outside who then run away.

MOST Saint mids cannot do this cleanly..and indeed often hit their opponents.


MB...PLAYERS actually in the main take YEARS to be developed...but YOU expect instant results from Lyon. What joke.
Look at the Hawks...Mitchel and Sewell (ex rookie??) have takena while to hit their prime.

[JeffDunne]

Is it possible to have a discussion about our list that looks forwards rather than back?

It's going to be a long off season if every thread is derailed by those still obsessing over our previous coach and list management decisions 5 years ago.

[matrix]

[quote="saintsRrising"]
Lyon KNOWS that our midfield is simply not as good and is doing the best he can with it.
[/quote="saintsRrising"]
have to agree here, now that ive seen both the hawks and cats mids up close and not just on the telly i have to say he actually hasnt done to bad with what he has

[quote="saintsRrising"]
Watch EITHER the Cats or Hawks games against the flesh and you will see skillied mids who can win the ball and then hit a target just outside who then run away.

MOST Saint mids cannot do this cleanly..and indeed often hit their opponents.
[/quote="saintsRrising"]

sad AND true

[skeptic]

RL has gone along way towards proving that he can coach and that he has some moves up his sleeve in the last half of the season

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here though

There's a lot of areas in which he can improve

Off the top of my head I would list:
-Team selection including rushing back injured players
-Inconsistency
-Low scoring + a growing trend of being unable to respond to opposition run ons
-We never seem to play good football for more than a match (seem to play ugly to win)

That being said, i think we're seeing the benefits of a better list structure, players only getting a game if they're willing to work for it, a more effective football department, + the desire to play kids

I actually think that we're about halfway into a complete list turnover which is what was needed when he first took over.
If thats the case than he has by far surpassed expectations.
(can some1 verify that for me please? What's the player turnover (ins and outs since RL arrived?)

He's doing well but still has a lot more work to do if he wants another contract IMO

[meher baba]

sRr I know that we don't have enough quality mids ATM. That seems to me to be a combination of a number of things, some of which are pure bad luck: Ball and X turning out to be so injury prone, Mini (who seemed to the whole world be the best remaining mid at pick 15 in 2004) not really living up to his promise, Armo likewise to date (I know he's still developing and could still be a gun, but others picked after him in 2006 have done more already)

I don't know what all your endless complaining about "GT destroyed the midfield" is based on. Sure, McGough was given a try with a mediocre draft pick. It didn't work out, but only the prejudiced would think it wasn't worth a punt with that draft pick. Are CJ's and Eddy's skills any better? Are you absolutely certain that Schneider is going to turn out to be a better choice?

Birss was then brought in, who looks servicable to most of us, but he clearly doesn't fit RL's plan in some way?

What plan is that, I hear you say? The one which is all about having relatively few ball players in the middle of the park and trying to build attacks from out of defence and from turnovers, while harrying and shutting the opposition down in midfield

On the whole it's a game plan I quite like, but it was very risky against a team like the Hawks, and we went in 1-2 midfielders too light to switch to plan B when the Hawks started to use the midfield as their main launching pad into attack, including from the centre bounce

All I ever said was that Lyon needs to have a think about this

One thing's for sure: it wasn't GT who chose Fiora over Birss last night

[matrix]

One thing's for sure: it wasn't GT who chose Fiora over Birss last night

friggin cant argue with that
heard brayshaw say that ball was out around 6/6.30pm on the earpiece.
instantly started praying it wasnt fiora and birss had the call up to drop a tag on someone.

[WayneJudson42]

Yup, RL went out and said to Joey, Dal and co... go out and play like Sydney.

Let's face it.. our midfield sucks compared to Hawks and Cats.

How many made AA? How many of them will poll well on Monday? How many featrued in awards this year?

To state that RL is still influenced by his days in Sydney... well, what can I say?

People come and admit they were wrong for wanting RL sacked, and as soon as we bow out... can't help themselves.

[Teflon]

RL has gone along way towards proving that he can coach and that he has some moves up his sleeve in the last half of the season

That being said, i think we're seeing the benefits of a better list structure, players only getting a game if they're willing to work for it, a more effective football department, + the desire to play kids

I actually think that we're about halfway into a complete list turnover which is what was needed when he first took over.If thats the case than he has by far surpassed expectations.
(can some1 verify that for me please? What's the player turnover (ins and outs since RL arrived?)

He's doing well but still has a lot more work to do if he wants another contract IMO

Are there still any morons on this site who after watching us be dismantled by Cats, Dogs and Hawks this year STILL telling us the list is just a "shade" of 04??

F2rk me.

[joffaboy]

People come and admit they were wrong for wanting RL sacked, and as soon as we bow out... can't help themselves.

Unfortunately this is it in a nutshell.

Lyon did a very good job getting a very fragile list to the top four, actually won a final, but really even with his great coaching the legacy he was left by the previous administration - complete neglect of the list in the vital areas of ruck and midfield, is now being felt at the pointy end of the season.

We aren't a bad team but lets face facts.

Beaten twice by the Bulldogs - completely flogged in the midfield.

Beaten twice by Geelong - in the final our mids were chasing arse all night and looked slow and underskilled

Against Hawthorn - Looked ordinary against them R16 in the first half. We played out of our skins in the second and the Hawks went to sleep. Two of their mids were coming back from injury and were underdone.

last night we were just humiliated out of the centre.

This is a direct result of the inept and incompetent list management of the previous admin.

First Lyon had to shore up the ruck and then try to stop the superior midfields of other teams with a couple of stoppers in Attard, Birss and McQualter while the Armo's and Stevens and Eddy's etc gear up and get experience.

We now have to go out and actively search for midfielders with some experience and try also to pick up some kids in the draft.

We must hope against hope that Armo and Steven and Eddy and Geary step up and we pick up a Cousins or Kerr. However I feel it will take years to develop our midfield again.

But hey, its all Lyons fault. Someone said it wasn't the previous admin who selected Fiora last night. True. But it WAS the previous admin that selected Fiora in the first place and placed Lyon in the position where he had to play him because we have no pace in the midfield at all. Dal is reasonable, Joey not bad, the rest are as slow as a wet week. The Hawks ran off us all of last night, as the Cats did the week before.

It is so easy to blame a coach for the cattle. Easier than to look at the real reasons for our lack of ability to match it with the big boys.

[meher baba]

Sigh. It appears that some people think that, once you are on the Ross Lyon bandwagon you are never permitted even the slightest criticism again.

Oh, that's right, and that GT ruined our list because he didn't adequately prepare for the impending retirements of Voss, Thommo, Peckett and Powell FFS (never mind minor details like the fact that the last two played VFL for most of 2006)

Oh, of course, that RL taking the destroyed list to a last gasp place in the top 4 plus two total thrashings in 3 finals games is a coaching achievement that must have the likes of Leigh Matthews, Barassi and Allan Jeans salivating with envy

That's right MB. Switch off your critical faculties, put a picture of GT on your wall and shout "I cast thee out, archangel of darkness!" at it at least 3 times daily

I can appreciate that the GT-haters now feel vindicated. But, gentlemen, please try to keep it real

[nicko016]

While we struggled to move the ball on quickly it was our inability to win the contested ball and the clearances. The best way to beat their zone is to win the ball athe stoppages when it isn't set up. But, more often than not we were launching our attacks from inside D50 which against any quality side we are going to struggle. Then, even when we did try to move the ball on it did work very well. I don't really have any issues with RL in that respect as we don't have the cattle in the mdifield to compete with Geelong and Hawthorn.

Selection, on other hand I was bit miffed, and am struggling to see why Birss has continually missed out. But I think he has done a pretty good job to turn it aroun d the way he has and he's definately shown he's a capable coach.

[joffaboy]

Sigh. It appears that some people think that, once you are on the Ross Lyon bandwagon you are never permitted even the slightest criticism again.

Nobody said that. Lyon can be critisised. of course he can

Oh, that's right, and that GT ruined our list because he didn't adequately prepare for the impending retirements of Voss, Thommo, Peckett and Powell FFS (never mind minor details like the fact that the last two played VFL for most of 2006)

Thats correct - he didn't.

Oh, of course, that RL taking the destroyed list to a last gasp place in the top 4 plus two total thrashings in 3 finals games is a coaching achievement that must have the likes of Leigh Matthews, Barassi and Allan Jeans salivating with envy

You get so defensive when your view is challenged by an alternate view. the list was not "destroyed" as you so hysterically put it, but it is obvious to anybody who actually gets to a game occasionally and not rely soley on their armchair that the list in the ruck and mids was not managed properly. We are paying for it now.

Speaking of thrashings - how did the greatest list of all time go against Brisbane in the first final of 2004???

Selective memory.

And why do you want to run down a top four spot? Is your opinion and your ego more important than the success or not of the team?

We are all saying the two thrashing in the finals are not good enough. Most rational posters are looking to personnel and why we got so smashed. You want to continue with your vendetta towards the coach for some incredible reason.

That's right MB. Switch off your critical faculties, put a picture of GT on your wall and shout "I cast thee out, archangel of darkness!" at it at least 3 times daily

GT is gone - move on.

I can appreciate that the GT-haters now feel vindicated. But, gentlemen, please try to keep it real

Vindicated?? Losing another PF is vindication? Strange and defensive analysis.

I am devestated. The gifts we got for being crap early this century are being wasted because of the previous admins incompetence and poor list management. Many have pointed out that htis is the crux of the problem.

however you seem to take it as a personal affront and anyone who says anything about your heros legacy is a heritic and must be exposed

It is really strange you know. I support the STKFC, not a single person. If Lyon stuffs up, and gets sacked, I wouldn't care a fig. I would say lets look forward and load up with whomever is in charge as coach.

However this icon hero worship of a former coach is absolute poision and the reason most people post about the former admin is to balance the ledger and expose the truth. Something the pro ex coach supporters seem to lack.

Why the worship of a former coach? Dont you support the STKFC? Why always go on about 2004/05?

Why the romantic notions? If you want to look at bear results - this has been our most successful year since 2004 - a preseason win and a PF defeat.

Really mb, you really need to look forward and get over this obsession toward trying to convince us that Ross Lyon cant coach. It is patently obvious he can and he has the runs on the board.

please mate - for your own health - get over it.