Hard decisions must be made

[joffaboy]

F*** off troll.

Cop out.

If you disagree, explain 'why' you disagree rather than dribbling that cr@p.

Last time I checked I thought this was a 'Forum' where different ideas/opinions were discussed/debated rather than everyone slapping eachother on the back and just agreeing.

F*** off Troll

[BallyIsBest]

Go on, ban me. Pathetic.

I thought this was a "DISCUSSION" forum.

I have not been rude, or derogatory in any way.

That is why I have chosen to read this forum for so long and not actually post.

[TimeToShineFellas]

[3. about Harvey making the 'hard' decision to not go on next year. Dont know what planet you are on, but it seems a pretty bloody obvious decision to me (and if he did not make the decision, I dare say someone would have made it on his behalf).

Only obvious to you hey.......?

I reckon you go speak to Ross Lyon and Nick Riewoldt and ask them whether they wanted him to play on next year.

I suppose KB is also on the wrong planet when he urged Harvey to play on next year too.

[BallyIsBest]

You highlight my point exactly!!

These people you say have urged Bangers to 'play on' next year are falling into the same 'sentiment' hole as a majority of other supporters at our club. Do you honestly believe that it would be beneficial to the on field performance of the StKilda FC if Harves was to play on next year...I doubt it. Therefore, we will stagnate in the middle of the ladder for seasons to come unless these 'hard' (and sometimes unpopular) decisions are made.

[st.byron]

Think you're way off the mark BallyisBest.
Harvs is averaging 21 disposals per game from, I'm guessing, maybe 65% game time. Taking all emotion about his career and retirement out of the equation, as you're so keen to do, he's well worth his spot in the side. Could go on next year and keep on doing the same thing too.

[WayneJudson42]

Think you're way off the mark BallyisBest.
Harvs is averaging 21 disposals per game from, I'm guessing, maybe 65% game time. Taking all emotion about his career and retirement out of the equation, as you're so keen to do, he's well worth his spot in the side. Could go on next year and keep on doing the same thing too.

It's an indictment to the rest of our mids that he still gets 21 per game IMHO.

35 is a legend... but other players should have made him redundant years ago through sheer weight of talent.

That he is still a major contributor is testament to his brilliance and an indictment on our others mids.

The question is this: Would he get a game for Hawks or Cats?

[BallyIsBest]

Fair call Wanyne. I agree 100%.

[WayneJudson42]

Fair call Wanyne. I agree 100%.

But, I wouldn't drop him, coz we've got no one to replace him for now.

[Winmar7Fan]

Think you're way off the mark BallyisBest.
Harvs is averaging 21 disposals per game from, I'm guessing, maybe 65% game time. Taking all emotion about his career and retirement out of the equation, as you're so keen to do, he's well worth his spot in the side. Could go on next year and keep on doing the same thing too.

It's an indictment to the rest of our mids that he still gets 21 per game IMHO.

35 is a legend... but other players should have made him redundant years ago through sheer weight of talent.

That he is still a major contributor is testament to his brilliance and an indictment on our others mids.

The question is this: Would he get a game for Hawks or Cats?

Don't agree at all IMO it's easier to perform and pick up possessions in top teams that are high in confidence, moving and delivering the ball well .

I think Harvey now in Geelong or Hawthorn would be doing it easier than with us.

[st.byron]

It's an indictment to the rest of our mids that he still gets 21 per game IMHO.

35 is a legend... but other players should have made him redundant years ago through sheer weight of talent.

That he is still a major contributor is testament to his brilliance and an indictment on our others mids.

The question is this: Would he get a game for Hawks or Cats?

don't agree with you on this one WJ42. I think it's Harvs talent and quality that enables him to keep delivering at the level he does, rather than the inadequacy of our other players. He's still elite in knowing where to run and his ability to find the footy.
He also still stacks up well in comparison to other clubs mid-field performance, measured purely on possessions.

Clubs with numbers of mids with more possessions that Harvs in 2008 -

Geelong 6
Carlton 5
Saints 5 (BJ, Dal, Lenny, Grammy, Joey)
Bulldogs 4
Richmond 4
Crows 4

No other club has more than two players with more possessions than Harvs in 2008, which suggests, based purely on possessions, he would still be third mid in 10 other teams in the comp.
To answer your question, no he wouldn't get a game with Geelong or Carlton, but he might get one with the Hawks or anyone else. Absolutely no doubt in my mind that he's worth his spot.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Think you're way off the mark BallyisBest.
Harvs is averaging 21 disposals per game from, I'm guessing, maybe 65% game time. Taking all emotion about his career and retirement out of the equation, as you're so keen to do, he's well worth his spot in the side. Could go on next year and keep on doing the same thing too.

It's an indictment to the rest of our mids that he still gets 21 per game IMHO.

35 is a legend... but other players should have made him redundant years ago through sheer weight of talent.

That he is still a major contributor is testament to his brilliance and an indictment on our others mids.

The question is this: Would he get a game for Hawks or Cats?

I can recall having this concern back in late '03 early '04... but by this point I've actually gone 180. In the end I actually think we're pushing out Harvey early (strange as it is to say at his age, and it's a credit to him that while this competitive he puts the club first even if I disagree with the need) because of the concern that his game will fall off a cliff, and the thought we need to think past him.

Over the last few years, the level at which he's played has not been something that many players will ever match - not in the league of 97-98, but quality football... I suspect if he weren't so far outside the status quo mentally, we'd be able to get 2-3 more years of quality football, and I think it's optomistic to say that in that 2-3 years one of the kids reaches the same level to take the curve onto improvement... and if they can, they'll easily be in the 22 by then anyway I don't think Harves has cost us any youth, and I don't think he would. I think his performance level demonstrates a massive flaw in the way we look at the age of footballers.

There are definately reasons to look to youth, but I think Harves would be an exception... if he wanted to be.

[WayneJudson42]

I hear your views and agree to a major extent.

My point was that if players like Joey, Dal, Ball, X had hit their max potential, Hrvey would find it hard to get a game.

Nothing wrong with the great man... just what's coming thru behind him that concerns me.

Harves and Lenny have been the mainstay of our midfield, and we persisted too long with Thommo, and Pecket, even Powell.

[st.byron]

I hear your views and agree to a major extent.

My point was that if players like Joey, Dal, Ball, X had hit their max potential, Hrvey would find it hard to get a game.

Nothing wrong with the great man... just what's coming thru behind him that concerns me.

Harves and Lenny have been the mainstay of our midfield, and we persisted too long with Thommo, and Pecket, even Powell.

disagree with you Wayne. We had Bally for most of the year and Harvs was still an integral and valuable part of our midfield.
If X had stood up as well, then yes we'd certainly have more mid-field depth, but Harvs would still have something special to offer, racking up 20+ possessions a game with lots of time on the bench.
Even if we had developed a Geelong-esque mid-field Harve's would still be an invaluable depth player, providing invaluable support to the "young guns'. As it is, we haven't developed a mid-field to die for and IMO Harvs is still worth his weight in gold. All emotion and love of the great man aside, he still holds his own on the park.

[TimeToShineFellas]

2. Harves - I think the time has come (just hear me out before you beat me to death!). I dont think he should play next week. My basis for this is that the TEAM is greater than any one PLAYER. And I believe that a team should not 'carry' a player regardless of sentiment. I am not going to recite Bangers career, he brilliance is undeniable. But his football ability/body/strength/stamina is obviously heading south quite rapidly, hence his decision to retire. There have been many instance in the second half of this season, and culminating in the game yesterday, that showed the game has passed him by. For instance, that hit on him by Rooke (first quarter I think) happened right below me. He took an age to get up and I think that really affected him for the remainder of the match. In his younger days he shrugged off hits like that continued to accumulate 30+ possessions without any problems, but yesterday I felt quite sad for him. If he were to play next week, if I was coaching the Filth I would get a player to target Harves early on knowing that 1 half decent hit would effectively render him out of the game (leaving the team down to 21, knowing how important bench rotations are these days...ruthless, but it is cut-and-throat at this end of the season). I dont believe that hierarchy can take this chance, regardless of sentiment. There were numerous other occasions yesterday when he looked well below par (and if we are all honest with ourselves, everyone would admit it). I would never question Harves heart or endeavour, but time has taken a massive toll.

When you're ready with that retraction, we are all waiting!

[saint1974]

Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


GO BANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BallyIsBest]

Retraction?! 1 game isnt going to change my mind. I have fortitude and belief in my theories.

[Saint Mik]

Make sure you are on here next Monday you flog,

YOU WILL BE EATING YOUR WORDS IN THIS POST

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

[TimeToShineFellas]

Retraction?! 1 game isnt going to change my mind. I have fortitude and belief in my theories.

So you want him dropped this week as well?

The bloke had 65% game time, racked up 22 disposals and set up our first 3 goals with pin-point passes.

But that's ok, you stick to your beliefs!

[Mr Magic]

Retraction?! 1 game isnt going to change my mind. I have fortitude and belief in my theories.

So you want him dropped this week as well?

I agree with him.
Harves 22 disposals, 4 goal assists in 65% game time were nowhere good enough for an Elimination Final.

He does not deserve to be selected in our Prelim Final on that performance.

Especially not when he is keeping much better yonger players out.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I hear your views and agree to a major extent.

My point was that if players like Joey, Dal, Ball, X had hit their max potential, Hrvey would find it hard to get a game.

Nothing wrong with the great man... just what's coming thru behind him that concerns me.

Harves and Lenny have been the mainstay of our midfield, and we persisted too long with Thommo, and Pecket, even Powell.

Thing is, when all those players are in the team... so is Harves.

And lets be honest, Harvey has not been a "mainstay" of the midfield for years. We rely on Lenny Hayes, Nick Dal Santo and Luke Ball more than Harves. At this stage we probably rely on Leigh Montagna more than Harves as well. These are the Saints midfielders that opposition teams worry about... through the 2nd half of '08, you can probably add Gram and Goddard to that list.

That takes nothing away from what Harves accomplishes. Through the entire season - in fact especially when we were struggling - you can rely on Harvey to take the game on, to run, and to find a good way to use the ball (while he's never been Brendon Goddard kicking-wise, his ability to chip 20-30 metres to a teammate at full pace is not to be underestimated)... mentally, he remains a top flight player, and while his skills may not be in the realm of what they were ten years ago, he's still a good AFL player.

The guys who have "failed" to force Harvey from the team are the Andrew McQualter, Clinton Jones, David Armitage, Jarryn Geary and Robert Eddy type of players.

With the addition of Jones to the best 22, if X can ever get healthy, it could present a selection dilemma I suppose... but forcing a player delivering the quality of play that Harvey is out of the lineup is a big ask for your young guys. Would we be better off if Armo had developed into what Harves is now and Harves had gone backward? Yes. Are we making an error in relying on Harves as much as we do? I don't think so... the fact that Jones has managed to step in and find himself a role while Harves is still playing says he's not gotten in anyone's way.

That Harvey will leave such a hole at his age is a credit to him, not a failure of list management.

[joffaboy]

Retraction?! 1 game isnt going to change my mind. I have fortitude and belief in my theories.

How about 380 games you monumental troll.

You have been made a fool of by Harvey but hey dont worry you are in good company like Brereton et al.

Suck it up your moron troll.

Laughing right in your face.

[*BaLLy iS BeST*]

my god.

drop harvs? um...no. that is all.


and can i just clarify that this poster is NOT me...even though they have strangely managed to choose the same name as mine. weird. considering its not exactly a common one...