Some worrying signs...
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
Re: Some worrying signs...
[quote="
In the words of the Great Dennis Commetti...
We will go in optimimisticaly... and come out misty-optically?
[/quote]
amen
In the words of the Great Dennis Commetti...
We will go in optimimisticaly... and come out misty-optically?
[/quote]
amen
STRENGTH THROUGH LOYALTY.
''I still get really excited, and I've got the '66 thing up on the wall in a frame … You look at it and think: one day, we want to achieve that.''- Arryn Siposs
''I still get really excited, and I've got the '66 thing up on the wall in a frame … You look at it and think: one day, we want to achieve that.''- Arryn Siposs
- meher baba
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 7210
- Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
- Location: Tasmania
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 511 times
The only rounds of the season in which we were actually in the top 4 were round 2 and round 22.
We won 3 out of our 6 games against the sides that finished in 5th-8th spots, which suggests that 4th place ended up being a bit of a lottery.
IMO we lost 3 games that we should have expected to win this year (1 each against the Dogs, Filth and the Eagles). By the way, I reckon we were also played way below par in some of our losses and even in some of our wins: eg, against the Tigers.
So, on the basis of our performances we were extremely lucky to get 4th. On the basis of talent alone, we should have finished 2nd or 3rd (we would have been a clear third if we had won the three games I think we should have won).
Hence my assessment that we were simultaneously fortunate to get, and deserving of, 4th spot.
As for my comments about flooding and lockdown and "tempo football", I don't deny that a certain amount of this is a must in the modern game: look at the way the Cats and the Hawks play. My problem is with the ineptitude of the way we were playing it early this year. We were flooding too much, we were not attacking the ball nearly enough and we were too slow and cautious at bringing the ball out of defence.
I would never suggest that this was all the current coach's fault. For example, our tendency to be indirect coming out of defence was just as marked in the GT era.
But I defy anyone to tell me that Lyon hasn't lifted his coaching game and refined his approach over the last couple of months. He is far less defensive and rigid in his mindset: the use of Kosi as second ruckman, Gram, Schneider, BJ and NDS being played further forward, the use of Gwilt, Raph and Charlie as decoy forwards, the reduced use of tagging, etc.
All I'm asking for is that Lyon stays with his latter day approach, and doesn't go back to his old style. On the basis of the team he has selected for Sunday, all the signs are good.
I wish people would stop suggesting that I am not on board. I've been on board for two months now. And I'm staying there.
We won 3 out of our 6 games against the sides that finished in 5th-8th spots, which suggests that 4th place ended up being a bit of a lottery.
IMO we lost 3 games that we should have expected to win this year (1 each against the Dogs, Filth and the Eagles). By the way, I reckon we were also played way below par in some of our losses and even in some of our wins: eg, against the Tigers.
So, on the basis of our performances we were extremely lucky to get 4th. On the basis of talent alone, we should have finished 2nd or 3rd (we would have been a clear third if we had won the three games I think we should have won).
Hence my assessment that we were simultaneously fortunate to get, and deserving of, 4th spot.
As for my comments about flooding and lockdown and "tempo football", I don't deny that a certain amount of this is a must in the modern game: look at the way the Cats and the Hawks play. My problem is with the ineptitude of the way we were playing it early this year. We were flooding too much, we were not attacking the ball nearly enough and we were too slow and cautious at bringing the ball out of defence.
I would never suggest that this was all the current coach's fault. For example, our tendency to be indirect coming out of defence was just as marked in the GT era.
But I defy anyone to tell me that Lyon hasn't lifted his coaching game and refined his approach over the last couple of months. He is far less defensive and rigid in his mindset: the use of Kosi as second ruckman, Gram, Schneider, BJ and NDS being played further forward, the use of Gwilt, Raph and Charlie as decoy forwards, the reduced use of tagging, etc.
All I'm asking for is that Lyon stays with his latter day approach, and doesn't go back to his old style. On the basis of the team he has selected for Sunday, all the signs are good.
I wish people would stop suggesting that I am not on board. I've been on board for two months now. And I'm staying there.
Last edited by meher baba on Fri 05 Sep 2008 6:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
- Jonathan Swift
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 1617
- Joined: Sun 25 Sep 2005 1:40am
- Location: Hampton/Gold Coast
- Been thanked: 7 times
Agree. 4th is 4th over 22 rounds - not just the results in the last round, and not directly comparable with previous years.markp wrote:IMO finishing 4th counts for finishing 4th.rodgerfox wrote:I'm not sure I agree with you WayneJudson42.
We finished 4th by a whisker. In other years, it could have been as low as 8th.
I hope we don't hang our hats on the actual ladder position at year's end - but instead break down the performance on it's merits.
Finishing 4th doesn't neccessarily mean Lyon is a great coach and our list is wonderful.
It means exactly the same as if the umpires didn't overrule the goal that Ryder kicked in the 1st quarter and we were playing in an elimination final tomorrow.
Our performance over the next month will tell us a lot. Much more than tha fact that 'we finished 4th'.
The fact that it was over 22 rounds, though, means that had we kicked just 2 extra points in each of those other 21 matches we would have only needed to win by about 50 points last weekend.
- saintsRrising
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 30091
- Joined: Mon 15 Mar 2004 11:07am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 711 times
- Been thanked: 1233 times
meher baba wrote:
As for my comments about flooding and lockdown and "tempo football", I don't deny that a certain amount of this is a must in the modern game: look at the way the Cats and the Hawks play. My problem is with the ineptitude of the way we were playing it early this year. We were flooding too much, we were not attacking the ball nearly enough and we were too slow and cautious at bringing the ball out of defence..
Err...penny drop maybe...think players?????
Never?meher baba wrote:
I would never suggest that this was all the current coach's fault. .
The No 1 thing he did was DROP Milne and Dal to spell out clearly to the players to jump on with Lyon's gameplan....or don't expect to play senior football.meher baba wrote:For example, our tendency to be indirect coming out of defence was just as marked in the GT era.
But I defy anyone to tell me that Lyon hasn't lifted his coaching game and refined his approach over the last couple of months. .
It worked.
No..our defensive gameplan is the same. Look how we structure up when the opposition win the ball...it is the same.meher baba wrote: He is far less defensive .
Our offensive gameplan is being better executed.
meher baba wrote:
and rigid in his mindset: the use of Kosi as second ruckman,.
Yes Gardiner got injured..came back for one game and was awful...and then he got injured again.
Rix s not up to AFL.
McEvoy is too raw......so WHO else could play second ruck???
Throughout Lyon's tenure he has been trying players in various positions.meher baba wrote: Gram, Schneider, BJ and NDS being played further forward, the use of Gwilt, Raph and Charlie as decoy forwards, the reduced use of tagging, etc..
Some have prospered...some not.
The one change you have correct is that he rarely plays two tags now.
With Raph for example he played him earlier in the year...and he simply was not good enough. He has brought him back again and he has clicked.
Blake has through SOS improved his defensive skills and now mainly plays asa defender.
Lyon said at the start of last year that we needed more run in the midfield and has tried various players there.
He gave Schneider a run there..but it did not work (though Schneider was also injured though...and is fitter now).
Milne was put in the midfield in the second half against the Hawks...and helped turn the game.
The style and gameplan is still essentially the same....and thank god he stuck with it. What is different is the execution and the form of the players.meher baba wrote:
All I'm asking for is that Lyon stays with his latter day approach, and doesn't go back to his old style. .
Also you might note that Roo in the first half of the year was carrying two knee injuries and a shoulder injury (he had trouble raising his arms to mark the ball. He is now running fre, leaping higher...and marking at full stretch again. He is now basically fully fit and playing better as a result. A dominant Roo helps a lot in the team playing well.
BJ is also now fully ver his knee and is playing better.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
- bobmurray
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 7828
- Joined: Mon 03 Oct 2005 11:08pm
- Location: In the stand at RSEA Park.
- Has thanked: 515 times
- Been thanked: 234 times
The only people who think the Saints can win on Sunday are us optimistic StKilda supporters,all the people i talked to today wondered why i was going on Sunday,why would i bother going to watch a thrashing.....
Most people can't see Geelong being beaten but anything can happen on the day.I think we'll be playing with 17 players because whoever is picked up by Ling may not get many touches.That means the Saints have to negate one of their players and then it will be 17 each.
Whoever plays on Hunt may struggle to get a touch as well if Hunt is on his game,it'll either be Milne or Schneider.I hope Kosi has a blinder and Roo kicks a bag.I also hope that if we get off to a good start we dont waste it on the scoreboard by kicking 4 goals 8 behinds or something similar...
It'll be interesting to see whether Ross wants them to attack or if he tries to contain them,keep the game tight until the last quarter and then see if we can out score them due to our fitness ,but then this is Geelong,they don't necessarily run out of legs either...
Whoever ends up on Scarlett should drag him up the ground a bit and take him out of his comfort zone.I hope the Saints don't turn up with the game or form they brought to the G for the Magpies game.....
Most people can't see Geelong being beaten but anything can happen on the day.I think we'll be playing with 17 players because whoever is picked up by Ling may not get many touches.That means the Saints have to negate one of their players and then it will be 17 each.
Whoever plays on Hunt may struggle to get a touch as well if Hunt is on his game,it'll either be Milne or Schneider.I hope Kosi has a blinder and Roo kicks a bag.I also hope that if we get off to a good start we dont waste it on the scoreboard by kicking 4 goals 8 behinds or something similar...
It'll be interesting to see whether Ross wants them to attack or if he tries to contain them,keep the game tight until the last quarter and then see if we can out score them due to our fitness ,but then this is Geelong,they don't necessarily run out of legs either...
Whoever ends up on Scarlett should drag him up the ground a bit and take him out of his comfort zone.I hope the Saints don't turn up with the game or form they brought to the G for the Magpies game.....
The list changes for 2025 have begun, always an interesting time for an avid supporter.
And here we have another one trying to deflect and smokescreenmeher baba wrote:By any sensible assessment, we are dead lucky to have finished in the top 4
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
We finished 4th because we won more games by a higher margin than 12 other teams.
Anything else is purile justification on the part of the anti Lyon tools who demanded he be sacked during the year.
The reason why we look better is because our skills have picked up.
Rounds 19-22 we were No.1 in the League for effective disposal - an absolutely telling stat.
JUST ADMIT YOU GOT IT DEADSET AND HOPELESSLY WRONG ON LYON
and stop all the spin and blather.
You and RodgerFox are fooling nobody with your spin.
Lyon, a pre-season premiership and top four all in his second year, all with a neglected list that he has had to top up while his youngsters mature.
You got it wrong, grow some balls and admit it.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
I reckon we were very lucky to finish top 4 when you look at some of our performances, especially early in the season.
However if you look at the other potential top 4 teams then I don't think we were lucky. Can't see any team below us that deserved it more.
The credit to Lyon and the players is for not dropping their bundle when the season seemed lost. We kept working and enter finals in our best form for the year.
Does it really matter now though?
We'll be judged by what happens now and not how we got here.
However if you look at the other potential top 4 teams then I don't think we were lucky. Can't see any team below us that deserved it more.
The credit to Lyon and the players is for not dropping their bundle when the season seemed lost. We kept working and enter finals in our best form for the year.
Does it really matter now though?
We'll be judged by what happens now and not how we got here.
Dont know if we were lucky to make top four, but we will be lucky to beat the Cats once in this finals series let alone twice.
We lose on Sunday and, if good enough, we only meet them if we make the GF.
I can imagine us beating them once but to beat them on Sunday, then again on GF day?
F*** that is one hard task.
We lose on Sunday and, if good enough, we only meet them if we make the GF.
I can imagine us beating them once but to beat them on Sunday, then again on GF day?
F*** that is one hard task.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
- markp
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 15567
- Joined: Mon 26 Mar 2007 4:22pm
- Has thanked: 63 times
- Been thanked: 81 times
Maybe we were unlucky to have not cemented our spot earlier?JeffDunne wrote:I reckon we were very lucky to finish top 4 when you look at some of our performances, especially early in the season.
If we had lost 2 more games and missed out on the 8 all together would the Lyon bashers have excused it as 'unlucky'?
To call it luck is to belittle the achievement.
Well done Saints.
The one thing we certainly have in our favour is we won't suffer based on expectation.
When you look at other times we've finished top 4 in the recent past we've gone it with plenty of expectation and plenty of players with big question marks over their fitness.
Maybe I'm losing it but I'm quietly confident because I reckon we can strangle thier attack. Shut them down early, plant the seed of doubt and then capitalise when they start getting frustrated.
When you look at other times we've finished top 4 in the recent past we've gone it with plenty of expectation and plenty of players with big question marks over their fitness.
Maybe I'm losing it but I'm quietly confident because I reckon we can strangle thier attack. Shut them down early, plant the seed of doubt and then capitalise when they start getting frustrated.
- markp
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 15567
- Joined: Mon 26 Mar 2007 4:22pm
- Has thanked: 63 times
- Been thanked: 81 times
From wiki;JeffDunne wrote:Nonsense.markp wrote:To call it luck is to belittle the achievement.
Were we lucky to beat the bombers by 108 points?Luck (also called fortuity) is a chance happening, or that which happens beyond a person's control.
How come it's only the anti-Lyon crew calling it lucky?
- bigred
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 11463
- Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 7:39am
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 609 times
Damn straight.joffaboy wrote:Dont know if we were lucky to make top four, but we will be lucky to beat the Cats once in this finals series let alone twice.
We lose on Sunday and, if good enough, we only meet them if we make the GF.
I can imagine us beating them once but to beat them on Sunday, then again on GF day?
F*** that is one hard task.
One week at a time
![Razz :P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
"Now the ball is loose, it gives St. Kilda a rough chance. Black. Good handpass. Voss. Schwarze now, the defender, can run and from a long way".....
I really wonder sometimes about the motivation if not the intelligence of some that indulge in these "I'm a better supporter" pissing contests.
We were lucky/fotunate/whatever that both Collingwood & North lost games they should have won. Especially North.
If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.
Maybe one of our "real" supporters could point out too the last time a team finished 4th winning only 13 games?
We were lucky/fotunate/whatever that both Collingwood & North lost games they should have won. Especially North.
If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.
Maybe one of our "real" supporters could point out too the last time a team finished 4th winning only 13 games?
- WayneJudson42
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: Mon 07 Jul 2008 9:53pm
- Location: I'm a victim of circumstance
MB, I know you're onboard, but you're still obsessed about RL's gameplan.meher baba wrote:The only rounds of the season in which we were actually in the top 4 were round 2 and round 22.
We won 3 out of our 6 games against the sides that finished in 5th-8th spots, which suggests that 4th place ended up being a bit of a lottery.
IMO we lost 3 games that we should have expected to win this year (1 each against the Dogs, Filth and the Eagles). By the way, I reckon we were also played way below par in some of our losses and even in some of our wins: eg, against the Tigers.
So, on the basis of our performances we were extremely lucky to get 4th. On the basis of talent alone, we should have finished 2nd or 3rd (we would have been a clear third if we had won the three games I think we should have won).
Hence my assessment that we were simultaneously fortunate to get, and deserving of, 4th spot.
As for my comments about flooding and lockdown and "tempo football", I don't deny that a certain amount of this is a must in the modern game: look at the way the Cats and the Hawks play. My problem is with the ineptitude of the way we were playing it early this year. We were flooding too much, we were not attacking the ball nearly enough and we were too slow and cautious at bringing the ball out of defence.
I would never suggest that this was all the current coach's fault. For example, our tendency to be indirect coming out of defence was just as marked in the GT era.
But I defy anyone to tell me that Lyon hasn't lifted his coaching game and refined his approach over the last couple of months. He is far less defensive and rigid in his mindset: the use of Kosi as second ruckman, Gram, Schneider, BJ and NDS being played further forward, the use of Gwilt, Raph and Charlie as decoy forwards, the reduced use of tagging, etc.
All I'm asking for is that Lyon stays with his latter day approach, and doesn't go back to his old style. On the basis of the team he has selected for Sunday, all the signs are good.
I wish people would stop suggesting that I am not on board. I've been on board for two months now. And I'm staying there.
Do you think he'll say "ok fellas... it's been great that we made the finals. now I want you to throw out everything you did to geth there and start palying the style we did in the first half of the year".
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Relax dude... smoke the sheesha pipe and chill.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
- WayneJudson42
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: Mon 07 Jul 2008 9:53pm
- Location: I'm a victim of circumstance
Excellent point!markp wrote:Maybe we were unlucky to have not cemented our spot earlier?JeffDunne wrote:I reckon we were very lucky to finish top 4 when you look at some of our performances, especially early in the season.
If we had lost 2 more games and missed out on the 8 all together would the Lyon bashers have excused it as 'unlucky'?
To call it luck is to belittle the achievement.
Well done Saints.
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
- WayneJudson42
- SS Life Member
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: Mon 07 Jul 2008 9:53pm
- Location: I'm a victim of circumstance
Umm, yeah we were lucky, and therefore the other teams like Pies and Nth were also lucky because by losing games we should have won, then results fell their way... and so on... and so on... pure conjecture JD.JeffDunne wrote:
If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.
Maybe one of our "real" supporters could point out too the last time a team finished 4th winning only 13 games?
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Results fell our way in Rd 22, but then again we still won enough games throughout the season to take 4th, didn't we???
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Also, since when was there a minimum number of wins required to earn 4th spot?
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
We could have done with 10 wins AFAIAC... just shows the eveness of the comp, doesn't it?
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
And I do mean:
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
- markp
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 15567
- Joined: Mon 26 Mar 2007 4:22pm
- Has thanked: 63 times
- Been thanked: 81 times
Whose intelligence and motivation do you question?JeffDunne wrote:I really wonder sometimes about the motivation if not the intelligence of some that indulge in these "I'm a better supporter" pissing contests.
We were lucky/fotunate/whatever that both Collingwood & North lost games they should have won. Especially North.
If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.
Maybe one of our "real" supporters could point out too the last time a team finished 4th winning only 13 games?
Who said or implied they were a 'better' supporter than you (and what could that possibly mean?)
To call us finishing in the top 4 'lucky' is 'stupid'.
We deserve to be there.
- saintsRrising
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 30091
- Joined: Mon 15 Mar 2004 11:07am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 711 times
- Been thanked: 1233 times
Why not equally pluck out another round where other teams lost???JeffDunne wrote:
If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.
Why not pluck out a round where the Saints lost...and North won?
What counts is the cumulative 22 Rounds...and not any one round.
North knew what was on offer...and did not seize it. North were not unlucky to lose to Port Adelaide. They were awful and got thrashed.
Adelaide however had a slice of luck to win as they were awarded a goal for a behind at a vital stage of the game. Can someone explain why this was lucky for the Saints? Apart from a possible extra 4 points for a win they otherwise may not have had...the extra 5 behinds increased the % we had to get to overhaul them. Why was this lucky for us?
The Saints knew what was on offer and did what was required...
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
So Adelaide were lucky and we weren't?saintsRrising wrote:Why not equally pluck out another round where other teams lost???JeffDunne wrote:
If you don't think results fell our way round 22 then TBH, I reckon you're kidding yourself.
Why not pluck out a round where the Saints lost...and North won?
What counts is the cumulative 22 Rounds...and not any one round.
North knew what was on offer...and did not seize it. North were not unlucky to lose to Port Adelaide. They were awful and got thrashed.
Adelaide however had a slice of luck to win as they were awarded a goal for a behind at a vital stage of the game. Can someone explain why this was lucky for the Saints? Apart from a possible extra 4 points for a win they otherwise may not have had...the extra 5 behinds increased the % we had to get to overhaul them. Why was this lucky for us?
The Saints knew what was on offer and did what was required...
- saintsRrising
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 30091
- Joined: Mon 15 Mar 2004 11:07am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 711 times
- Been thanked: 1233 times
Adelaide gained 5 points for nothing.JeffDunne wrote:
So Adelaide were lucky and we weren't?
Is that not pure luck???
I mean teams win and lose EVERY match. But how often do teams get points they should not? Only rarely.
I watch the North game. they were not unlucky. They were just plain awful and were clearly outplayed.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....