CJ's game vs Adelaide (Includes Video)

[WayneJudson42]

Sorry... how many senrior games has he played? Some one please remind me.

[SAINT JUMP]

GOOD TIMING GUYS, TO SIT BACK IN YOUR ARM CHAIRS AND BAD MOUTH A PLAYER. In finals you need to go into games with your confindence up, not have your so call supporters putting you down. I hope you dont read this cj, but if you do, go out and have a good one.A lot of cj poss where under preasure.

[The Saintsational Man]

I thought his game was very good.

Why does everyone expect that every player has to play like Lenny, Roo & Dal???

This year he has gotten 14 possesions or more in 14/16 games for us, averaging 18.3 per game.

He averages 3.3 tackles a game and is 11.2 in free kicks.

The number 1 thing.....he never stops trying!!!

That's what wins games.

[SAINT JUMP]

Joffaboy, your fave movie would have to be, dummer and dummer.

[The Linton Street Flash]

I don't think this a debate that will reach resolution quickly

FWIW I don't have any problem with in and under players who get lots of ball but who can't generally nail a low 50m foot pass: Ball, West, Haselby,even McGough (one of the all-time whipping boys on here).

But is CJ genuinely an in-and-under player? He seems to get quite a few possessions in the clear, and then doesn't do much with them. A bit like Blake, until Lyon had the excellent idea of turning him into a KPP

In my view of the modern game, an AFL-standard player must be an in and under player or a KPP or else be a mobile runner who is reasonably skilled by hand and foot (even ruckmen and taggers have to have good disposal nowadays IMO)

But clearly others see it differently to me

Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate!!

But you don't actually go to games do you?

What is it? - one or two a year?

Maybe you should start turning up and you may get a more comprehensive view that what is telecast from camera 1 -

You're such a passionate typer - shame your not so passionate a supporter!

Armchair buffoon

[Otiman]

Getting the ball all the time means nothing if most of the time it goes to the advantage of the opposition.

CJ has played some great games this year, but as I said, this was not one of them.

Some people are fooled into thinking that getting a lot of disposals means a good game. He works hard to get the ball, but last Sunday in particular, either just bombed it long, or missed a target. In a 400 possession game where playing keepings off (e.g. Geelong '08) is more important than raw meterage (e.g. Sydney '05), this is not good.

I counted about 4 good acts in the whole clip that resulted in a positive outcome for the saints. (Not including chipping the ball across half back).

The people who said he had a good game, how many of his 25 possessions were to a 50/50 or worse outcome for a teammate?

[fonz_#15]

I don't think this a debate that will reach resolution quickly

FWIW I don't have any problem with in and under players who get lots of ball but who can't generally nail a low 50m foot pass: Ball, West, Haselby,even McGough (one of the all-time whipping boys on here).

But is CJ genuinely an in-and-under player? He seems to get quite a few possessions in the clear, and then doesn't do much with them. A bit like Blake, until Lyon had the excellent idea of turning him into a KPP

In my view of the modern game, an AFL-standard player must be an in and under player or a KPP or else be a mobile runner who is reasonably skilled by hand and foot (even ruckmen and taggers have to have good disposal nowadays IMO)

But clearly others see it differently to me

Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate!!

But you don't actually go to games do you?

What is it? - one or two a year?

Maybe you should start turning up and you may get a more comprehensive view that what is telecast from camera 1 -

You're such a passionate typer - shame your not so passionate a supporter!

Armchair buffoon

take off the rose coloured tinters you knob.

Clinton JOnes is far above AFL standard in endeavour, the bloke gives his all but his disposal is about as good as my ten year old cousins.

if you worl hard to get the ball, the least you can do is offload it to a team-mate and that is something the youn man struggles to do.

still in our best 22 but he needs to believe in himself more and learn how kick. pronto.

[meher baba]

I don't think this a debate that will reach resolution quickly

FWIW I don't have any problem with in and under players who get lots of ball but who can't generally nail a low 50m foot pass: Ball, West, Haselby,even McGough (one of the all-time whipping boys on here).

But is CJ genuinely an in-and-under player? He seems to get quite a few possessions in the clear, and then doesn't do much with them. A bit like Blake, until Lyon had the excellent idea of turning him into a KPP

In my view of the modern game, an AFL-standard player must be an in and under player or a KPP or else be a mobile runner who is reasonably skilled by hand and foot (even ruckmen and taggers have to have good disposal nowadays IMO)

But clearly others see it differently to me

Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate!!

But you don't actually go to games do you?

What is it? - one or two a year?

Maybe you should start turning up and you may get a more comprehensive view that what is telecast from camera 1 -

You're such a passionate typer - shame your not so passionate a supporter!

Armchair buffoon

Go jump in the lake.

Some of us have careers which don't enable us to live in Melbourne, and family lives that make it difficult for us just to head on down there every weekend. I would love to watch the Sainters play every week.

Anyway, on the 2-3 occasions that I have seen CJ live, he actually looks more ineffective than he does on TV. It's then you can observe him running off into the clear and nobody on the other side bothering to go anywhere near him, but simply heading straight downfield. CJ then faffs around doing holding the ball in the air and grimacing while all his potential targets are manned up.

I've tried to be nice about this, but it makes me rather ill how much love there seems to be on this forum for this hard-working hack compared to all the bile that has been dished out towards the likes of Blake, Raph, Dal, BJ, Milne, Gwilt et al

[Persuader]

Thanks for posting that video.
Just proved beyond doubt what an asset CJ has been to us this
year and how much he's improved.
He gives us so much run and is such an important link in the movement of the ball.I would never rely on him to kick the winning goal but I believe he'd have a hand in setting it up.

[Otiman]

I'm actually pretty amazed at the response in this thread.

There are numerous times where he fails to shepherd.
There are numerous times where he was standing 10m off his opponent when they have the ball.
90% of his kicks in a contested situation go to a 50/50 or worse proposition for us.

Also pretty amazed at the knockers, who suggest this kind of thing happens every week.

[cowboy18]

Joffaboy, your fave movie would have to be, dummer and dummer.

(Please let it be deliberate!)

[SAINT JUMP]

Have a look at some of the other players mistakes, why just have it in for cj. To go to all that trouble, just to put cj down is unbeleivable.

[Otiman]

Have a look at some of the other players mistakes, why just have it in for cj. To go to all that trouble, just to put cj down is unbeleivable.

It's a clip of his whole game, make of it what you will.

For what it's worth, I'd have him in a grand final team.

In the end, it's just proof that people can see what they want to see.

[SAINT JUMP]

Standing of his player but defencive side. Also you dont know what the coach has told him to do.

[St Chris]

Getting the ball all the time means nothing if most of the time it goes to the advantage of the opposition.

CJ has played some great games this year, but as I said, this was not one of them.

Some people are fooled into thinking that getting a lot of disposals means a good game. He works hard to get the ball, but last Sunday in particular, either just bombed it long, or missed a target. In a 400 possession game where playing keepings off (e.g. Geelong '08) is more important than raw meterage (e.g. Sydney '05), this is not good.

I counted about 4 good acts in the whole clip that resulted in a positive outcome for the saints. (Not including chipping the ball across half back).

Getting the ball out of CJ's hands and into the hands of someone who uses the footy better (ie Joey Dal Santo Gram Chips etc..) is a positive for the Saints. And that is something CJ can do.

You've picked an easy target to have a go at. You bag him for throwing on his boot and moving the ball forward, but then don't count a short pass to a more skilled teammate as a positive for the Saints.

Hows about getting down from your soap box and adding something positive for the club and the supporters a week from finals, rather than poking fun at a bloke who has an honest crack.

[fonz_#15]

stop being so precious FFS.

i will never fault his effort but he lacks polish.

for what its worth i will not exclude Dal from criticism, a few solid games proves little to me.

you put CJ's endeavour with Dal's polish and you have an amazing player. But the two have flaws in their game that they must work on.

we can be critical without actually bagging him.

if we had 22 CJ's we would be a side that teams would worry about in terms of workrate but we would turn the ball over 243 times a game.

just my thoughts.

[bigcarl]

In the end, it's just proof that people can see what they want to see.

it's proof that people see things differently.

fwiw i had him just outside the votes. did a lot of good work early when no-one else seemed able to get going.

[fonz_#15]

Standing of his player but defencive side. Also you dont know what the coach has told him to do.

but i can tell you what the coach hasn't told him to do.

i am sure Ross hasn't said use your kicking technique which looks like an under 9's footballer.

[Otiman]

Standing of his player but defencive side. Also you dont know what the coach has told him to do.

True that I don't know the coaches instructions. He could well be a loose man in a zone. That said, there are other blokes I'd rather have doing that job. Wasn't necessarily defensive side, and I'm talking in free play, not in pack situations. Based on what I saw at the ground, and not in the footage.

[SAINT JUMP]

I just hate players being singled out.Some of our stars can stuff up, nothing ever said.The likes of Eddy, Rhalf, cj, etc get a serving by this forum, all the time.

[spert]

Fair dinkum..some people will be dropping Roo next, as he is is a poor shot for goal, and when he misses marks, the opposition clear the ball??.!@@#

[Otiman]

Fair dinkum..some people will be dropping Roo next, as he is is a poor shot for goal, and when he misses marks, the opposition clear the ball??.!@@#

Who said anything about dropping him?

[yipper]

[
I've tried to be nice about this, but it makes me rather ill how much love there seems to be on this forum for this hard-working hack compared to all the bile that has been dished out towards the likes of Blake, Raph, Dal, BJ, Milne, Gwilt et al

Hack??? Now Clinton Jones has some deficiencies - but Hack?? You really need to back off a bit champ!!

[Dis Believer]

My only criticism of Cj's game on the weekend was how far he was constantly standing off his opponent - I ended up taking a fair degree of notice, because it frequrently resulted in him not quite getting there in time to effect a tackle when his opponent had the ball.

Shepherding and talking to team mates is a team wide problem in my opinion. Saying "you're hot" or "you're clear" takes no skill whatsoever, much like putting yourself between a team-mate in possession and an opponent. We suck at both.

[meher baba]

What's interesting about the growing passion of this debate is that, at heart, it seems to be between those supporters who prize effort above anything else and those who are more interested in looking at the talent and effectiveness of a player.

If you sit at a ground, you can hear a lot of supporters screaming out endlessly at players because they don't try hard enough or they make a mistake. As supporters, we tend to have a bit of a pack mentality, and get down on a certain player for a while: TS 40 a few years ago, Raph more recently, Dal most of the time. Our view of Dal is that he is blessed with lots of skills, but simply doesn't try hard enough. This we hate more than anything else, which is why Raph cops it as well. When we see one of these apparently diffident players make a mistake, we can't forgive them.

I think this sort of understanding of the game is often based upon dangerous misconceptions, which hopefully are not shared by the coaching staff.

In most games I have watched, Dal seems to be trying his guts out. Dal's problem is not lack of effort, it is that - more than other midfielders of his type - he seems to lack what it takes to shake off a tagger very easily. So, in weeks when he gets a good tagger on him, he is blotted out. When the tagging is less effective, he shines.

A Jones-type player - or a Blake if he is running around free and not playing on someone - always looks like he is working much harder than a Dal or a Raph. But this is a deceptive as well.

Fans tend to notice a guy they see constantly running off into space, and chasing after the bal and all of the other players. They often notice this much more than they do a guy who is playing his positional role very well.

Players run off into space, or are left free to go around chasing the ball, all the time when they are allowed to do so by their opponents. If they are often left on their own and, in particular, if they have blond hair or some other feature that makes them stand out, then they can catch the eye of the fans as being really hard workers.

In a peculiar way, they are also more obvious if they aren't particularly fast (which Jones isn't: watch the video very carefully and observe how often he is outrun). Because slower players have to do lots of this "gut running" which is so belvoved of many fans. Whereas really fast guys (like many of the Aboriginal players) often can play a more sneaky sort of game in which they look like they aren't doing anything much until they spot an opportunity, at which time they move at the speed of lightning.

What is useful about a video about Otiman's (and I would expect it would have taken him a lot of time to produce it) is that it looks way behind simplistic assessments like "25 disposals always better than 10 disposals, regardless of their effectiveness" or that somebody gives us forward momentum (which, in modern AFL, is as about as meaningless a concept as it is in soccer: it's where you put the ball that matters, not which direction you kick it in).

Anyway, enough already. I've probably invited myself to a flame fest for the rest of the day.