Why Charlie Gardiner is important.....

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
BigMart
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13622
Joined: Sat 22 Mar 2008 6:06pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Why Charlie Gardiner is important.....

Post: # 628991Post BigMart »

I preface this by saying that I believe Charlie is an average AFL player, a very Good VFL player and possibly one of the weakest players in the senior side ATM....


So why is he important???

He hits up leads and presents as an option.....that is his strength....and that is what we need....along with that he is still nimble enough to provide defensive pressure.....He has very good hands/does most of his work up the field.....

Gwilt, Raph, Goddard, X and Gilbert are all flankers/wingers by nature and have only pinch hit with success as a 3rd fwd.....to play the role successfully you need to draw the ball or Draw your opponent away from the main targets....

but with our current set up the mid size fwd will need to play as the #2 fwd at CHF ..... when Kosi is on the Ball (Roo needs to go to FF to become the Goal kicker).....I am not sure the flankers have the knowledge to play the role of CHF....having rarely done it.

When Kosi is fwd.....Roo is at CHF....the third fwd needs to be an alternative target to draw the heat of the 'big 2'.....

Gardiner has played this role his whole career......a Junior CHF/VFL CHF and a HFF at AFL......and he knows how to lead up the ground - it is his bread and butter......

In short.....he is not a great player, but is extremely important to our structure.....otherwise we become one dimensional and predictable....he can be a target inside 50......a conduit into f50.....or a decoy on the likes of Harley who disrespect their opponent...

Aaron Hamill would be very Nice........


User avatar
yipper
SS Life Member
Posts: 3967
Joined: Wed 10 Mar 2004 8:18am
Location: Gippsland
Been thanked: 10 times

Post: # 628992Post yipper »

And he has been slotting the odd goal for us when he gets it inside 50!! We certainly do look more balanced?? when he is in the team. And the improved form of Schneider has certainly added to our scoring capacity now as well. But Chucky, particularly over the last 2 weeks has been doing an important job for us - without all the glamour and fanfare.


I want to stand for something. I'm a loyal person and I think at the end of my career it will be great to look back and know that I'm a St Kilda person for life.
- Nick Riewoldt. May 19th 2009.
bigcarl
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18579
Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
Has thanked: 1905 times
Been thanked: 843 times

Re: Why Carlie Gardiner is important.....

Post: # 628993Post bigcarl »

i know exactly what you are saying, marto. forward structure is important and hasn't been a strength for us all season.

problem is, who to drop to get two very good players (ball and X) back into the side? eddy might be one. charlie would be another candidate.

some suggested cj goes out, but i think that would be a mistake.
Last edited by bigcarl on Wed 27 Aug 2008 11:57am, edited 1 time in total.


GrumpyOne

Post: # 628995Post GrumpyOne »

Is Carlie married to Charlie?


bergsone
SS Life Member
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon 28 Apr 2008 4:56pm
Location: victoria
Has thanked: 260 times
Been thanked: 119 times

Post: # 628998Post bergsone »

With Gwilt and RC now playing more forward,and X and Ball returning,reckon C Gardiner may be Overlooked,Understand the structure thing,but just cant fit em all in IMO


kaos theory
Club Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 8:38pm
Been thanked: 25 times

Post: # 628999Post kaos theory »

Good explination Mart,

But I worry about his decision-making & disposal. He has the tendency to easily turnover the ball when under pressure.

What about raph clarke? He has some forward experience (been tried there successfully in the vfl), is far more skillful, and better when the ball hits the ground. Probably not great atm as a leading marking forward, but if his confidence continues to grow, he has far more upside than c. gardiner.


BigMart
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13622
Joined: Sat 22 Mar 2008 6:06pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 629000Post BigMart »

3 Rotations for me

HF: MILNE - RIEWOLDT - X/EDDY/JONES/BALL/BIRSS/DAL/HARVEY

F: SCHNIEDER - KOSI - GWILT/GARDINER


ALTERNATE......... kosi in the ruck
HF: SCHNIEDER - C.GARDINER - X/EDDY/JONES/BALL/BIRSS/DAL/HARV

F: MILNE - RIEWOLDT - GWILT/RAPH


ALTERNATE......Riewoldt on the wing
HF: GWILT/RAPH - C.GARDINER - X/EDDY/JONES/BALL/BIRSS/DAL/HARV

F: MILNE - KOSI - SCHNIEDER


BigMart
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13622
Joined: Sat 22 Mar 2008 6:06pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 629002Post BigMart »

His decision making is a query - I agree.......also is for Gwilt/Raph....

None of them are cemented AFL players.....

I believe Gardner has a better understanding of how to play as a marking fwd, and will draw the footy on the lead better than the other two......


User avatar
Otiman
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8587
Joined: Thu 28 Jul 2005 11:09pm
Location: Elsewhere
Has thanked: 191 times
Been thanked: 614 times

Post: # 629015Post Otiman »

Can Allen play the 'decoy forward' role?

Attributes are totally polar opposites to Gardiner. He's slow(er), but has good hands and can take a great pack mark, or contest one out.

Can't run through the midfield/wing like Gardiner can. But I reckon he's good for 2 to 4 goals a game, where Gardiner is good for 0 to 2. The added potency would mean you can't just put your running defender onto him, like you probably could with Gardiner, as he doesn't hurt you offensively.


User avatar
WayneJudson42
SS Life Member
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon 07 Jul 2008 9:53pm
Location: I'm a victim of circumstance

Post: # 629018Post WayneJudson42 »

BigMart wrote:His decision making is a query - I agree.......also is for Gwilt/Raph....

None of them are cemented AFL players.....

I believe Gardner has a better understanding of how to play as a marking fwd, and will draw the footy on the lead better than the other two......
A very welcome discussion Big Mart.

Too often, our players are rated purely in terms of where they fit on the scale of GOP to Star. CG is one the "bottom 6" players ATM.

Therefore, we should look at the respective roles of "B6" players in the team structure context.

CG's role happens to be up forward, and I think he gives a good 3rd option, and takes the heat off Roo. He can also drop back and create some problems for opp should they wish to double tag Roo.

That said, as long as he is playing his "role" according to instructions, then I'm cool with him keeping his place.

It will be interesting to see if he keeps his place. I still don't know if X is a certainty for finals due to his lack of match fitness.


The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
User avatar
Saints43
Club Player
Posts: 1826
Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 1:01pm
Location: L2 A38
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Post: # 629019Post Saints43 »

2-4 Goals a game would be a fairly handy Decoy Forward.

That's 50 - 100 goals a year.


BigMart
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13622
Joined: Sat 22 Mar 2008 6:06pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 629022Post BigMart »

X will not replace Gardiner IMO.........they are very different players....the side has good balance ATM

He could replace.....CJ, Eddy, Raph, Gram......

Allen is very much a KPP......I think we will lose fwd pressure with 2/3 talls inside F50.....Allen is not ready......


User avatar
WayneJudson42
SS Life Member
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon 07 Jul 2008 9:53pm
Location: I'm a victim of circumstance

Post: # 629023Post WayneJudson42 »

BigMart wrote:X will not replace Gardiner IMO.........they are very different players....the side has good balance ATM

He could replace.....CJ, Eddy, Raph, Gram......

Allen is very much a KPP......I think we will lose fwd pressure with 2/3 talls inside F50.....Allen is not ready......
Of those 3... Eddy would be most likely to go IMO.


The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
Red
Club Player
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu 17 May 2007 1:46pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Post: # 629024Post Red »

He only becomes important if he is used. Most defences cheat against us.

Players play off their man to help the guy playing on Roo. So if we always

try to hit up Roo then they double/ triple team him, the ball comes to ground

and they have the numbers. You actually need to go through that option to

keep the opposition honest. Quite frankly we don't do that often enough.

I've being to games where Gardiner or Eddy make a lot of leads and the

ball ends up going to a contest.


Sobraz
SS Life Member
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu 29 Mar 2007 1:06pm
Has thanked: 2 times

Post: # 629026Post Sobraz »

Gardiner will be a massive liability come finals time due to his pathetically soft attack on the ball.... He has no idea how to hit a contest hard, and his supposed forward pressure is non existant...

You simply cannot have weak, soft players come finals... There is a difference between inside and outside players, and both are needed, but Charlie takes it to another level.... He must be dropped this week...

Allen for all his lack of possessions and speed, hits the man and the ball hard, and this counts far more than Charlie's cheap wing lead marks....

Not surprised that you rate him tho Bigmart.. you seem to take a liking to the squibs....


TimeToShineFellas
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2013
Joined: Wed 10 Aug 2005 8:01pm
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Post: # 629031Post TimeToShineFellas »

WayneJudson42 wrote:
BigMart wrote:X will not replace Gardiner IMO.........they are very different players....the side has good balance ATM

He could replace.....CJ, Eddy, Raph, Gram......

Allen is very much a KPP......I think we will lose fwd pressure with 2/3 talls inside F50.....Allen is not ready......
Of those 3... Eddy would be most likely to go IMO.
Agreed
Sobraz wrote:Gardiner will be a massive liability come finals time due to his pathetically soft attack on the ball.... He has no idea how to hit a contest hard, and his supposed forward pressure is non existant...

You simply cannot have weak, soft players come finals... There is a difference between inside and outside players, and both are needed, but Charlie takes it to another level.... He must be dropped this week...

Allen for all his lack of possessions and speed, hits the man and the ball hard, and this counts far more than Charlie's cheap wing lead marks....

Not surprised that you rate him tho Bigmart.. you seem to take a liking to the squibs....
hahaha that's priceless Sobraz, coming from a poster who had Barry Brooks as his avatar.

Hilarious stuff!


Sobraz
SS Life Member
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu 29 Mar 2007 1:06pm
Has thanked: 2 times

Post: # 629034Post Sobraz »

TimeToShineFellas wrote: hahaha that's priceless Sobraz, coming from a poster who had Barry Brooks as his avatar.

Hilarious stuff!
not sure where you got your info from, but ive never had an avatar.... real hilarious huh!!!!.... get your facts right.... :roll:


TimeToShineFellas
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2013
Joined: Wed 10 Aug 2005 8:01pm
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Post: # 629036Post TimeToShineFellas »

Did you or did you not used to have Barry Brooks under your nic?


User avatar
WayneJudson42
SS Life Member
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon 07 Jul 2008 9:53pm
Location: I'm a victim of circumstance

Post: # 629037Post WayneJudson42 »

TimeToShineFellas wrote:
WayneJudson42 wrote:
BigMart wrote:X will not replace Gardiner IMO.........they are very different players....the side has good balance ATM

He could replace.....CJ, Eddy, Raph, Gram......

Allen is very much a KPP......I think we will lose fwd pressure with 2/3 talls inside F50.....Allen is not ready......
Of those 3... Eddy would be most likely to go IMO.
Agreed
Sobraz wrote:Gardiner will be a massive liability come finals time due to his pathetically soft attack on the ball.... He has no idea how to hit a contest hard, and his supposed forward pressure is non existant...

You simply cannot have weak, soft players come finals... There is a difference between inside and outside players, and both are needed, but Charlie takes it to another level.... He must be dropped this week...

Allen for all his lack of possessions and speed, hits the man and the ball hard, and this counts far more than Charlie's cheap wing lead marks....

Not surprised that you rate him tho Bigmart.. you seem to take a liking to the squibs....
hahaha that's priceless Sobraz, coming from a poster who had Barry Brooks as his avatar.

Hilarious stuff!
We had squidd for dinner last night. On the BBQ with fresh chilli.

Sobraz... or should that be Dumbaz? Another keyboard hero. Give it a rest mate. Go to training, and look GArdiner in the eye and call him a squibb. Pretty gutless act to do it on a forum IMO.


The lid is off after Round 2! Enjoy the journey, coz you just don't know where we'll end up. Live for today and seize the moment.
Sobraz
SS Life Member
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu 29 Mar 2007 1:06pm
Has thanked: 2 times

Post: # 629039Post Sobraz »

For me its simple.... he doesnt put his head over the ball when he needs to... IMO this means he is soft... looking him in the eye and calling him a squib would probably make him cry...


bigcarl
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18579
Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
Has thanked: 1905 times
Been thanked: 843 times

Post: # 629040Post bigcarl »

so marto, to put the thread back on track, who would go out to make way for ball and X?


kaos theory
Club Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 8:38pm
Been thanked: 25 times

Post: # 629043Post kaos theory »

His decision making is a query - I agree.......also is for Gwilt/Raph....

None of them are cemented AFL players.....

I believe Gardner has a better understanding of how to play as a marking fwd, and will draw the footy on the lead better than the other two......
ok, but still think gardiner's negatives are greater than gwilt or raph, both of which aslo give us more flexibility.

We don't have a hamil or steve jonstone, but using a weak substitute may hurt us more than benefit us....

RL is obviously trying out that tactic, but with more quality mids becoming available over the next week or 2 (Ball, X, Mini), he may choose to sacrifice that plan, and go for more flexibilty & skill through the run, carry & mobility aspect of the game...


User avatar
St Chris
SS Hall of Fame
Posts: 2153
Joined: Wed 05 Apr 2006 2:20pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Post: # 629055Post St Chris »

GrumpyOne wrote:Is Carlie married to Charlie?
Sister....their parents weren't that original with names....


BigMart
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 13622
Joined: Sat 22 Mar 2008 6:06pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post: # 629070Post BigMart »

no i don't like 'squibs'........especially keyboard ones......I just laugh at morons who call AFL footballers 'squibs'.....

You know very little, so I won't waste ant time discussing it with you......and until you play AFL footy, or even State league footy at CHF....you are not qualified to make such a call :wink:

BTW - I am getting on now, but would back myself to give you a football lesson :lol:


bigcarl
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18579
Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
Has thanked: 1905 times
Been thanked: 843 times

Post: # 629073Post bigcarl »

so who would make way for ball and X?

personally i wouldn't contemplate dropping cj, raph or gram.


Post Reply