Where are the following younger players at

[plugger66]

Jimmy, Eddy, Geary, Gilbert, Mini and CJ. Are any of these players going to be better than average footballers because if that is how they end up then we go backwards as there is little or no more improvement left in our better players.

Then you have the next list of players such as Schneider, Dempster and the most disappointing player on our list Kosi. Can these guys improve because we need them to start right now.

Finally we have our ordinary older types like Fizz, Blake and King. They obviously cannot improve but need to play at their best more often. Probably harsh on Blake as he again had a good year.

So when you look at that list of players it is no wonder we are back in the middle of the pack.

Can we have some thoughts on this without our rose coloured glasses on.

[saintsRrising]

Thoughts...

Yes we have a lack of future good or "star" players coming through.

There area number of young players who look like they will become good average players (Geary, Jones Eddy etc)....but there is as I posted a few weeks back a lack of genuine future stars.

It is too early to make a call on Ben. Steven has shown some glimpses. We will get an idea in 2009.


But if you look at our kids taken over the 4 or 5 years prior we do not have anyone since Sam Fisher (who is having a quiet year) who looks like a "star in the making.

Armo does not show enough....and would also seem to have "tank" problems.

Gilbert showed some good signs last year but has had a dismal 2008. His use of the ball in recent weeks and last night should see him dropped..but we have no one to come in.

We just do not have a group of young exciting quality players coming through.

On the older players, yes Blake has improved. But he is still an average player and not a star.

Of our so-called stars...too many are down hill skiers that play in bursts (Dal, Joey). True start play 4 quarters (ie Banger and Roo).

[davidgrantfan]

I feel I have to stand up for KING and Blake here. Both have played some great games this year. King has kicked goals and set up goals and has been very good in the ruck at times. he has been a reiable mark as well. I think King is a gift pickup who has given us value. Blake featured in our best players a week or so back, as did Gwilt. The latter will improve further I'm almost certain.

We are looking for solid performers week in week out, and a lot of our players seem to go missing at times,but to single out the above, to me, lets a lot of other names off the hook.

[howlinwolf]

I'd have to agree with Saintsrising and plugger66
Unfortunately we are not saintsrising at the moment though.

At the moment we are carrying far too many players of the calibre of Geary,McQualter,Eddy,Jones,Gwilt,Fiora.
These guys might be average AFL footballers but are still building towards that. (Fizz may be past it)
You can get away with one or two in a side but not this many and still win.

Add the out of form players like Gilbert (last night was a slight improvement on his current form)..
Kosi.. I just don't know what's wrong with him. He just lopes after opponents. I hardly ever see him run hard. He looks barely interested.

And it's plain to see the burden is being shared by too few.
In fact I think our results have surpassed the teams we've been fielding.
This was proved last night. Drop one of those core players that have been overworking like Luke Ball and the workload goes through the roof for those few workers left.

I have serious reservations about the depth of future superstars at our club. If there are any it will be later rather than sooner they mature.


It is a legacy of the previous management and will take years for it to be corrected.

I can't help but keep thinking about this fact.
Mark Thompson had a negative win loss ratio at Geelong at year 9 of his tenure as a coach.
It can take a long time to get it right to win a flag.
Do we ever wait that long before looking for the quick formula ?

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

Unfortunately we are not saintsrising at the moment though.

Add the out of form players like Gilbert (last night was a slight improvement on his current form)..
Kosi.. I just don't know what's wrong with him. He just lopes after opponents. I hardly ever see him run hard. He looks barely interested.

And it's plain to see the burden is being shared by too few.
In fact I think our results have surpassed the teams we've been fielding.
This was proved last night. Drop one of those core players that have been overworking like Luke Ball and the workload goes through the roof for those few workers left.

I have serious reservations about the depth of future superstars at our club. If there are any it will be later rather than sooner they mature.


It is a legacy of the previous management and will take years for it to be corrected.

Seriously good post howlinwolf.

The Ball exclusion from the team really highlighted how much of the load he and Lenny carry in the midfield at the minute. Dal was so dissapointing last night. His effort at the contest was really below par (he wasnt the only one though!) until the last qtr when he was great....too little, too late.

At the moment we are carrying far too many players of the calibre of Geary,McQualter,Eddy,Jones,Gwilt,Fiora.
These guys might be average AFL footballers but are still building towards that. (Fizz may be past it)
You can get away with one or two in a side but not this many and still win.

Totally agree. You can discuss game plan's, forward structures, tactics, match-ups until the cows come home but when you have a group of players listed above (Geary, Mini etc) ,who are at the minute still trying to get to AFL level or struggling to get there, it places so much weight on the star players to carry them.

I really still can't comprehend how Fizz gets a game? Out of the other 15 teams in the competition how many would he get a game for?

Ideally Gilbert should be sent to Casey for a couple of weeks. He is seriously out of form and lacking in confidence especially with his disposal. Unfortunately...we have no defenders coming through so that isn't an option really.

I'd add Milne to the list of passengers. For me he was one of the most dissapointing last night following a shocker last week. Granted he kicked 2 great goals last night but i ask what else did he contribute? No fwd pressure. Got caught with the ball...got caught trying to do too much and most importantly whenever there was a 50/50 contest to be won he never went in hard enough. 8 posessions...3 clangers...0 tackles.

[cwrcyn]

Gilbert - a goer who lacks class and turns the ball over. His decision-making has deteriorated since last year


Eddy - tries hard, but is he really any better than Leigh Fisher? No breakaway speed, lacks penetration in his kicking and has no evasive skills. Sounds just like Fisher to me. Plenty of people get excited about him, but I see a third tier player with limitations and I'm not ecpecting that to change.

Fiora - Bye bye. No intensity, wishwashy player who has reached his peak, and it's not a very high peak, is it?


Geary - Showed great signs pre-season, but has played some unfathomably bad football in the last two games. Still young, but big question marks given recent form.


Jones - Servicable lower tier player who is playing a well as could be expected of him. Three quiet games out of past four. Wouldn't get a game at most clubs above us.

Gwilt - the problem is all between his ears, and I'm not sure if that;s going to change. He's strong and a beautiful kick, but reads the game poorly and is hesitant in all his decision making.


McQualter - small tagger who needs to be at his best to get a game every week. Has better skills than Eddy, Jones, Fiora, and Geary, but realistically, he's unlikely to improve a great deal on current form.


All up, it's not a cast of champions, is it? This is where some difficult decisions need to be made. We have lots of 'ALMOST' footballers on our list. These are high risk players in relation to investing time in. Do you cut them and try for better in the draft? Probably. Hanging on to these types allows you to tread water around the middle of the ladder for a few years, but eventually kills you. Some serious work ahead for Roos Lyon at season's end.

[perfectionist]

Gilbert - a goer who lacks class and turns the ball over. His decision-making has deteriorated since last year


Eddy - tries hard, but is he really any better than Leigh Fisher? No breakaway speed, lacks penetration in his kicking and has no evasive skills. Sounds just like Fisher to me. Plenty of people get excited about him, but I see a third tier player with limitations and I'm not ecpecting that to change.

Fiora - Bye bye. No intensity, wishwashy player who has reached his peak, and it's not a very high peak, is it?


Geary - Showed great signs pre-season, but has played some unfathomably bad football in the last two games. Still young, but big question marks given recent form.


Jones - Servicable lower tier player who is playing a well as could be expected of him. Three quiet games out of past four. Wouldn't get a game at most clubs above us.

Gwilt - the problem is all between his ears, and I'm not sure if that;s going to change. He's strong and a beautiful kick, but reads the game poorly and is hesitant in all his decision making.


McQualter - small tagger who needs to be at his best to get a game every week. Has better skills than Eddy, Jones, Fiora, and Geary, but realistically, he's unlikely to improve a great deal on current form.

Sound analysis. If these guys are our future, there will be a decade when we fail to win a game.

Can't run and/or can't kick - then can't play.

[howlinwolf]

We do have some top players no doubting that. That is a small core though.
We don't have a team.
Half the players do 75% of the work and in the games we win the other half do 25%.
Last night the other half did not much at all. So we lost.

We always ask ourselves why some players are getting a game but really who do we have to bring in to replace them ?
We can't drop half the team. Nor can we delist/trade that many at season's end.

Look at Geelong. They thrashed Melbourne on Friday night and still have Wojinski, Milburn,Chapman to come in.
Who they will drop then would get an instant game with us.They have depth and a structure.

We need to build stability and a structure/process which supports success without losses of individual coaches,management or players affecting the result.
In recent years it's like we have a few pieces of the jigsaw together and when we spend 5 minutes looking for the next piece we lose patience and through the lot up in the air and start again.

As I said Mark Thompson had a negative win loss ratio after 9 years at the helm. Then success !

Do we have that sort of patience to build an empire ?

[Megamaguire]

"Mark Thompson had a negative win loss ratio at Geelong at year 9 of his tenure as a coach.
It can take a long time to get it right to win a flag". Said Howlin

Against the hawks the Saints looked pretty smart and none smarter than coach Lyon i thought. We do need some excitement coming through the ranks. Gilbert has let himself get depressed or something. Missing Maguire
terribly - that is a fit Maguire of coarse. Not an excuse but someone who can receive the baton from the gallant Maxie will be very important. Getting some genuine ball carrying speed into the centre would energise the Saints to no end and having a young forward like Allen or whoever would energise the front half. I don't think we are too far away and we could well see a bright shining light wanting to come to St.K. in 2009.
G O S A I N T S !