underwhelming credit to Lyon...

[WayneJudson42]

Goodness me one gets verballed on here!!

Yes, we all pay for our past sins eventually

Your admission that you were wrong is noted and respected MB.

[WayneJudson42]

Re the dropping of Dal: if it wasn't a "desperate act" it was certainly a high risk one which could have blown up in Lyon's face. Don't forget, Dal did not deserve to be dropped on form. Lyon was sending a message to the whole team about attitude. You only get one go at making such a statement: it either works, or you lose all respect. Full marks to Lyon for bringing it off.

Dude, the point is that none of us know why he got dropped. It may not have had anything to do with form. It may well have been attitude. It may have been as punsihment for letting the team down against the Swans.

What risk? If the guy gets dropped and he can't cop it, then F*** him off at the end of the year.

Same would go for any other player who decided to lose respect based on one selection decision.

[Mr Magic]

I cant decide whether you are the Andrew Bolt of Saintsational, or the thinking mans crannypete.... Looking forward to the fox report Rodge, when are you gonna start charging for it?!

And what do you know!!! Another one about me!!

Yep, rodgerfox,
the Paris Hilton of Saintsational.

And another!!!

You keep posting this trash and I'll keep responding to it.


It's up to you

HAHAHA!! And another one from Mr Magic!!

I'm very flattered.

You should be.
There are very few with the overinflated ego to match you on here!

But perhaps a new thread would be best so you can discuss me as much as you like?? Obviously you're obsessed with me, but I'm sure others (apar from your crew of course) don't want to read about me all the time.

Well I'm just waiting for the next edition of your Fox Report so that we can assist you in your 'ego-stroking' narcissistic self flagelating 'Master Debating' exercise in self promotion.

My Crew?
Please inform us all who are 'my crew'?

And rodgerfox, it is totally within your power to stop this childish tit-for-tat.
Why don't you show us all how serious and responsible you can be by reverting back to teh original topic instead of hijacking the thread to make it all about rodgerfox?

[rodgerfox]

Re the dropping of Dal: if it wasn't a "desperate act" it was certainly a high risk one which could have blown up in Lyon's face. Don't forget, Dal did not deserve to be dropped on form. Lyon was sending a message to the whole team about attitude. You only get one go at making such a statement: it either works, or you lose all respect. Full marks to Lyon for bringing it off.

Dude, the point is that none of us know why he got dropped. It may not have had anything to do with form. It may well have been attitude. It may have been as punsihment for letting the team down against the Swans.

What risk? If the guy gets dropped and he can't cop it, then F*** him off at the end of the year.

Same would go for any other player who decided to lose respect based on one selection decision.

It can be risky depending on why it's done.

Seeing as we don't know why, it's hard to say it is or isn't risky really.

[WayneJudson42]

When these guys don't play very well, we get beaten comfortably on the scoreboard.
I'm not convinced Lyon is a good coach at all yet.

Fair enough, that's your call.

That we are starting to play well, must then be due to RL, because your position has been that we are a top 4 team who are poorly coached.

As for Dal's dropping, I agree entirely. Risk aside, it's ludicrous to say the RL was desperate.

[fugazi]

Great win last night, best for the last 2 years...we've been playing better ever since we have dropped the negative game plan that we're not used to. Credit goes to Ross Lyon for not being so dogmatic that he persists with a plan that demonstrably doesn't work.

[Teflon]

I've had major doubts about RL's abilities working with the group.

But wrote somewhere else:

We ran the ball around the wing and then at centre wing tried to find an option in the centre corridor to attack them directly. Unfortunately the players really used the ball poorly in the first half.

We turned the game by pressuring them. 52 tackles tonight. They didn't start kicking it out on the full because they can't play.

Ross Lyon's coaching of quick handball skills when coupled with effective tackling is grand.

And if he keeps getting that effort and attitude out of the group then we are back.

That second half of football was as good as you'll see. And there's scope for improvement generally.

12 goals to three in the second half.

Id suggest that second half of football is what hes wanted and hasnt been able to get executed on the park for some time.

Id also suggest that some of us had been saying this for a while but just couldnt seem to get the doubting Thomas' off our backs...

Lyon can coach Ive no doubt.

The cr@p I read about him being "bland" and not media savvy blah blah made me puke 4 weeks ago. I KNOW hes bland. He does it on purpose cause hes a guy who is ALL for the cause and will give the media/opposition NOTHING. He was that competitive as a player too (Dan).

I like this - I dont want a media whore (see Wallace) as coach and to me Lyons old fashioned "Jeans" tellem nothin no fuss approach will do me fine tks. Infact the only thing Id say to Ross is - drop "solution based drivel" we know what you mean - BE solution based...you dont need to trot it out.....had enough of that with the last guy...

He'll be fine.

[twirlyhair]

I have been reading the various threads tonight and I would have to say that Lyon does not see to be getting the credit he deserves.


* He brought in two more runners and quick players in Schneider and Fiora to play a team where all but Max were capable of having run in the midfield. He copped a HUGE bag from most on this.

Result was that we outran the Hawks in the second half.....and that our run and legspeed were excellent

* He got most of his match ups right. BJ 's lack of pace was exposed early on in the backline and the Hawks exploited it. RL re-adjusted the backline to counter.

* He swung Blake into the ruck at the right time. Mini to shut down Mithchell etc etc..

*He kicked Dal, Milne...and through them the balance of the team up the bum a few weeks ago to lift the workrate of the WHOLE team. Players such as Kosi have noticeably lifted since.


*The Saints are now obviously a pretty fit team...able to run out games strongly...made more so with good team and structural selections.

Lyons fingerprints were all over tonights win....and great credit is due to him.

I agree. He is shaping up as a long term coach and may provide the stabilty that we have craved for so long. My only criticism is that he possibly waited to long to give a couple of players and the group a real kick up the bum that was sorely needed. He perhaps was also a little slow in getting youth into the team. We may have had an extra win if he had have done this which could be crtitical in the washup

[Teflon]

C'mon mark, lighten up.

LOL I think he has your girls measure Jeffery...

[Teflon]

C'mon mark, lighten up.

Virtually every single one of his posts is indirectly about the GT 'legacy'..... he's the one who needs to lighten up.

This top 4 bollocks is just that, bollocks.... more than 4 teams could claim to have a top 4 list. Means nothing.

100% spot on but you need to take Dodgs drivel as most on here do - an agenda driven rant for all things that were.....

Hes not good at looking ahead and telling where he thinks we can improve...he plays "hindsight" after every game.

Quite good with hindsight he is too....some sorta reverse psychic....

[Teflon]

What is my position as you see it?

I could actually see you asking this question in prison....and then suggesting to the big boys that wasnt what you really said at all.....

[bobmurray]

Can someone remind what the f*** this thread is about,after reading the last 2 pages i have no idea.......

[Corkin Ocean]

Forget about keeping a lid on anything. This was a great win.

Even the negatives are positive (if that makes any sense at all) – they showed there is still loads of potential improvement.

No doubt the conventional wisdom is that the dropping of Dal and Milne was a turning point. But it could be that things have improved despite it, not because of it.

I thought at the time and I still think that dropping Dal was wrong and dropping Milne was pointless. Those decisions were not the hallmarks of a coach who was confident or effective. A better coach would have got the message through earlier and without detriment to on-field performance. If you look at the immediate results, the team played a very ordinary game against Freo and for three quarters against North the next week when they were back. It could have cost us the Freo game and the season. It was close, but thankfully, it didn’t.

The Freo game saw Lenny’s stand-out first quarter that was his statement (a fantastic example of leadership) but I think the dramatic change in the team as a whole happened in the last quarter against North. They found the will to win and a way to win.

I don’t know if it was player led, or coach inspired, or a bit of both. Maybe, as suggested on here, that what Lyon did in dropping the two had more of an effect on him than the players. Whatever. It has snowballed since the North game and the second half thumping of a contender last night could become a career-establishing win for Lyon as a coach.

It doesn’t mean that he will make it long term (still uncertain). It doesn’t mean he is the smartest or best going around (looking a bit unlikely). It doesn’t mean that he will become a great media performer (looking nigh on impossible). But it does mean that he can get a team together from this list (now with his imprint on it) that can win well. Having defended him for a season and a half, I with many others had started to doubt this, because I had never seen it, up until last night. He might yet prove to be what the team needs.

It has taken a while. It is pretty clear now that he was not a ready made coach, as promised. But then, who is? He seems to have been learning first hand the senior coach role on leadership, people management, the media, the list, the effectiveness of various aspects of game plans and what mix of players is needed for what game plan. He has made some obvious improvements, made some of it up as he has gone along and he has made mistakes. In hindsight, none of this should be surprising. But it is apparent that he has learnt some things and has now struck on a winning formula – and that is what matters. (Maybe there has also been an element of dumb luck about the timing of it, but it is a good thing to be lucky.)

And, while it may have been slower than we would have wanted (and perhaps reasonably expected), it is not too late. No side going around is unbeatable in finals this season. None. Not even Geelong - because it is Geelong. The Cats can always stumble when you least expect it. (Ask their supporters – an incredibly paranoid bunch.)

The Saints now have an attitude of “why not go for itâ€

[Teflon]

super well balanced post Cork.

Well said.

Its true Lyons made mistakes but (and it is to be tested) IF he is at least able to maintain the rage with this lot for the rest of the year then as a coach he has 1 critical plus - the ability to to be flexible and LEARN.

[WayneJudson42]

Great win last night, best for the last 2 years...we've been playing better ever since we have dropped the negative game plan that we're not used to.

Another "insider" who knows what the game plan is.

How about next week lotto numbers?

Maybe... just maybe... we are fitter, and have a more "mobile" team that has finally unprogrammed 5 years of playing a certain game style... and are now starting to grasp the new plan and execute it accordingly.

Just maybe?

This is the team that was so good that they coached themselves... so it comes as no suprise that they have struggled to play like the coach wants them to... as opposed to coaching themselves.

[rexy]

A really good OP ruined by 2 pages of unrelated drivel from grown men who cant have a different opinion without personal insults. Why would I look at any other site?

Lyon is not getting a lot of credit as Lyon has never taken a lot of responsibility when we are playing badly. You dont get one without the other.

I think RL is turning into a good low profile work man like coach, he makes solid decisions and is not afraid to change things through a match which is good. I think the changing fortunes of our club are being over stated by many at this point. We were talking top 4 after beating the Hawks in rd 16 last year(sound familiar) and we didnt make the 8!

My observations are that we are running out games as well as I have ever seen us and that the players have moulded to Ross's game a little and Ross has moulded to the strengths of our players a little. Ie Gramm is not a great stopper naturally so you cant give him a job every week. Our taggers are not prolific ball winners like Kirk so we must have at least one of Ball/Hayes in the middle to win the pill.etc etc. Overall I feel that RL will get credit as a really good coach when he coaches a team with sustained success. That is no different for any other coach in the League. I think he has the brains and the desire to do it and I hope he does.

[bigred]

Just maybe?

Maybe.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

My observations are that we are running out games as well as I have ever seen us and that the players have moulded to Ross's game a little and Ross has moulded to the strengths of our players a little. Ie Gramm is not a great stopper naturally so you cant give him a job every week. Our taggers are not prolific ball winners like Kirk so we must have at least one of Ball/Hayes in the middle to win the pill.etc etc. Overall I feel that RL will get credit as a really good coach when he coaches a team with sustained success. That is no different for any other coach in the League. I think he has the brains and the desire to do it and I hope he does.

Some really insightful commentary.

Some of the decisions made in the last 2 weeks from the coaching box have been much more effective that in the past, and I think the mix of player/coach has been clear. Gram on Judd came as a really pleasant surprise - both that Lyon went there, and that it worked (juxtapose any of the games where we've had multiple taggers in the centre square)! Wouldn't have thought Gram had it in him. Blake in the ruck to tap forward and run onto the ball changed the way the clearances worked and made a massive impact on the game (compare to King and Gardiner tapping directly to the Bulldogs...).

The players and coach are figuring each other out... that's 3 games in a row where together they've taken a game an changed it to suit them.

Plenty of scope for improvement remains, but we're starting to get a real picture of what Ross Lyon football will look like at St Kilda.

[Saints43]

That second half of football was as good as you'll see. And there's scope for improvement generally.

12 goals to three in the second half.

Id suggest that second half of football is what hes wanted and hasnt been able to get executed on the park for some time.

Id also suggest that some of us had been saying this for a while but just couldnt seem to get the doubting Thomas' off our backs...

Lyon can coach Ive no doubt.

As a doubting Thomas I reserve the right to see something before I believe it. And I want to see it fairly regularly.