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[WayneJudson42]

Well summed up Mark.

Different angle... Is there so much made about indigenous players re their skills etc, that if a player does not live up to the hype, we get down on them? We feel let down coz we expect them all to be M Long or another Winmar?

Do we stereotype them too much and set our expectations accordingly?

It's almost like the Judd syndrome. Any top 3 draft who doesn't play like a freak in his first year, we mark them harshly.

Just a thought...

[markp]

Well summed up Mark.

Different angle... Is there so much made about indigenous players re their skills etc, that if a player does not live up to the hype, we get down on them? We feel let down coz we expect them all to be M Long or another Winmar?

Do we stereotype them too much and set our expectations accordingly?

It's almost like the Judd syndrome. Any top 3 draft who doesn't play like a freak in his first year, we mark them harshly.

Just a thought...

It's possible, and it's probably a mixture of factors..... I also think sometimes they can just stand out more during a game in the same way a player with bleached hair does... doesn't help that in this case they play down back either, where mistakes can be very costly.

[WayneJudson42]

Raph and Fiora are clasic examples. Both high draft picks. As such, we rattle on about how crap they are and unfilled potential. Maybe the recruiters got it wrong?

Maybe Fiora is what he is, a GOP. As is Raph.

[plugger66]

Well summed up Mark.

Different angle... Is there so much made about indigenous players re their skills etc, that if a player does not live up to the hype, we get down on them? We feel let down coz we expect them all to be M Long or another Winmar?

Do we stereotype them too much and set our expectations accordingly?

It's almost like the Judd syndrome. Any top 3 draft who doesn't play like a freak in his first year, we mark them harshly.

Just a thought...

Not sure we can use that excuse for Jimmy.

[WayneJudson42]

Awww. I thought it was quite profound.

[rodgerfox]

Talented kid.

[saints11]

If only people could remember his first game against Adelaide 18 Disposals And 2 goals

[BallBanger]

No doubt I've witnessed it at the footy, no doubt it's real... can't speak for this thread or this forum. Being at least aware of it and acknowledging it, is part of the price we pay for striving to be civilized....

I personally fear that Jimmy and Raph wont make it (hope like hell they do)... but I've seen some (at the game) go them and X too hard, too often for it not to make you wonder about their motives.

But then I think a lot of the vitriol poured on players and coach alike at times is disgraceful too, regardless of race.... save it for the opposition!

I've never heard a racist comment directed at either and I go most weeks..
I've heard supporters voicing their opinion but its nothing to do with colour/creed and if it were the crowd would vehemently not tolerate it.

Its racism if you cant criticise because of their colour.

[fonz_#15]

if you buy me a beer we have a deal iceman

As above pal, you buy mine.

You have a lot to learn you young'uns.

You gonna be there though? At training?

i will definately be at the game mate, might even go into livewire never really been in there for more than a minute.

[Iceman234]

No doubt I've witnessed it at the footy, no doubt it's real... can't speak for this thread or this forum. Being at least aware of it and acknowledging it, is part of the price we pay for striving to be civilized....

I personally fear that Jimmy and Raph wont make it (hope like hell they do)... but I've seen some (at the game) go them and X too hard, too often for it not to make you wonder about their motives.

But then I think a lot of the vitriol poured on players and coach alike at times is disgraceful too, regardless of race.... save it for the opposition!

I've never heard a racist comment directed at either and I go most weeks..
I've heard supporters voicing their opinion but its nothing to do with colour/creed and if it were the crowd would vehemently not tolerate it.

Its racism if you cant criticise because of their colour.

Exactly.

I also go nearly every week and have never heard it and would never tolerate it either.

I've actually never heard a racist comment against an oppo player either. I know I haven't because I haven't been involved in an argument re this yet.

I usually sit Aisle 19-20 in the SC area. Where do you sit markp to hear this?

[Iceman234]

if you buy me a beer we have a deal iceman

As above pal, you buy mine.

You have a lot to learn you young'uns.

You gonna be there though? At training?

i will definately be at the game mate, might even go into livewire never really been in there for more than a minute.

You know when you're old?

During a disturbed sleep night last night I dislocated my left shoulder - an old footy injury and it pops back in easy enough - but hurts like hell for a couple of days.

So didn't go to training and spent most of the day at the doc's and physio.

[Teflon]

So if a person with dark colour has an off game you can't critisise them because its racist?.

That's not what was said and you and others bloody well know it. The reaction from you, Iceman, Saints in 20?? and the SS resident fukwit Teffers are typical of people unable to debate these topics.

This thread had NOTHING to do with racism before the 2nd greatest flog getting round (Mhehebabble) decided to play resident SS dalai lama and throw "the race card' on what was a football discussion and then along comes SS scumbag No1 JD (complete with BF gutter mouth and all) to "stir the pot" on an issue thats far bigger than this thread will ever be.

Lets not feign Jeff is "debating the bigger picture" FFS ! in Jeffs world there'sonly 1 picture......of himself.

People like him trivialise racism. You throw it around as some sort of moral lecture - entirely out of context as it is in this thread - to be used to purport some conscience the rest of us lack.....to pass judgment (not for the benefit of educating others) merely to play "im morally higher than you" childlike games on an issue that many have suffered from for years. Infact what irks me the most is the fact a truly sad aspect of life is used as some sort of "one upmanship" on a f@rkon football forum - its poor and you need to have a look at yourself.

I dont lecture on racism. Fact is I dont lecture full stop - Im not that full of myself or a big enough w@nker to suggest Id know what its like to be racially abused nor would I ever suggest - implied or otherwise WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE- that others are racist especially when it has been bought entirely out of context into a THREAD that was about FOOTBALL on a FOOTBALL forum.

Your a disgrace to this board and an embarrassment.

[Teflon]

This forumjust sunk to an all time low.

No, actually I think it did that when it let you back in.

If you think this thread it bad - check your posting history.

Stick to labelling and passing judgement on others Jeff - thats what scumbags at their lowest ebb resort to and why your effective on Bigfooty.

Leave the "bigger picture" debates to grown ups.

[Iceman234]

I'd actually missed that shot from JD until it was highlighted by Teflon.

There was no debate to be had - at no stage were we debating the colour of a bloke's skin.

There was not a racism issue - IT WAS ABOUT FOOTBALL.

[saintjake]

how did rasicm come up

lol.
gwilt could be good.
just depends on weather he applies himself,
and listens to the people around him who know what there talking about

hopefully he can(Y)

[Teflon]

JB, I fully get what you're saying.

My point is this: Players of all types have been given a shellacking on this forum. But when it's an indigenous palyer, why bring up race?

If people only criticised Raph or JG, then fair enough. But no one has been spared.

To bring up race is cruel, dude. You can't imply that people are racist. It's like Plugger been called a pedo the other day. Nasty. Why raise it? Just lights fires and gives people another excuse to spew out the vitriol.

Why make stupid, naive, inflamatory suggestions?

Thank you Wayne

So good to see that some get the issue.

Its amazing...I read this thread again NOT 1 critcism in THIS Gwilt/Raph discussion was racist - yet we now have posters implying that if others get annoyed that a half brained poster has managed to succesfully hijack what was FOOTBALL discussion and turned it into a racism debate ...then the inference can somehow be drawn that they may be deep seated racists?

Truly bizarre.

We ALL know and knew LONG before Mehebabbleon and Jeffdumb "enlightened"us that racism does exist. It is real and still occurs not just in football but in society BUT I and MOST SS posters dont come here for lectures on racism I come here to discuss footy.

If and when I want to debate racism Im sure theres plenty of places to do so with far more knowledgeable people than Babble/Jeffery....

[Teflon]

I'd actually missed that shot from JD until it was highlighted by Teflon.

There was no debate to be had - at no stage were we debating the colour of a bloke's skin.

There was not a racism issue - IT WAS ABOUT FOOTBALL.

My thoughtd exactly Iceman but somehow we started getting lectures on racism and if we object to it...then we must be racist.

And f@rk that shytes me cause thats a disgraceful implication to slur anyone with.

[Iceman234]

how did rasicm come up

lol.
gwilt could be good.
just depends on weather he applies himself,
and listens to the people around him who know what there talking about

hopefully he can(Y)

Puzzled also Jake.

Yes it's whether he applies and hopefully they're switched on.

Would love to see him succeed but at the moment I just don't see it.


But, he is a left footer so anything is possible

And go Saints

[WayneJudson42]

Joffaboy: "I have posted on here before the attacks on X and Raph and now Jimmy Gwilt has something more to it than just their ability.

As mb stated other players get away with being an icon of the cclub like Ferguson who has done three fifths of f all (injuries have been cruel I admit) but a young 21 year like Raph and Jimmy are called all sorts of names and are called posion etc.

easy to label and I dont know if it subconcious however there is certainly more to the critisism than the way they play."

With respect, The 3 players mentioned have actually played, and therefore we have seen more of them and can form an opinion. As has Fiora and Blake.

Maybe once other players play a few more games, they'll also be judged.

Anyway, enough of this crap.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Well summed up Mark.

Different angle... Is there so much made about indigenous players re their skills etc, that if a player does not live up to the hype, we get down on them? We feel let down coz we expect them all to be M Long or another Winmar?

Do we stereotype them too much and set our expectations accordingly?

It's almost like the Judd syndrome. Any top 3 draft who doesn't play like a freak in his first year, we mark them harshly.

Just a thought...

on the mark perfectly on both accounts

previously if this has been brought up some posters would somehow claim racism towards an under-performing indigenous player when infact its to be seen that they will make the grade regardless

[WayneJudson42]

Thank you SP2008.

It's almost like pe1s envy at times. We missed out on Judd, and anyone we recruit that doesn't measure up... we crucify.

Just look at how long the debate about whether we should have got Judd instead of Ball went on for.

[markp]

No doubt I've witnessed it at the footy, no doubt it's real... can't speak for this thread or this forum. Being at least aware of it and acknowledging it, is part of the price we pay for striving to be civilized....

I personally fear that Jimmy and Raph wont make it (hope like hell they do)... but I've seen some (at the game) go them and X too hard, too often for it not to make you wonder about their motives.

But then I think a lot of the vitriol poured on players and coach alike at times is disgraceful too, regardless of race.... save it for the opposition!

I've never heard a racist comment directed at either and I go most weeks..
I've heard supporters voicing their opinion but its nothing to do with colour/creed and if it were the crowd would vehemently not tolerate it.

Its racism if you cant criticise because of their colour.

Exactly.

I also go nearly every week and have never heard it and would never tolerate it either.

I've actually never heard a racist comment against an oppo player either. I know I haven't because I haven't been involved in an argument re this yet.

I usually sit Aisle 19-20 in the SC area. Where do you sit markp to hear this?

I usually stand, and often move around between quarters... My first comment/sentence was about racism at the footy over the years, and racism in general...

The second sentence was about this case, I do know the difference between slagging off a player and crossing the line... I have heard and seen things at times that are of concern.

[Iceman234]

No doubt I've witnessed it at the footy, no doubt it's real... can't speak for this thread or this forum. Being at least aware of it and acknowledging it, is part of the price we pay for striving to be civilized....

I personally fear that Jimmy and Raph wont make it (hope like hell they do)... but I've seen some (at the game) go them and X too hard, too often for it not to make you wonder about their motives.

But then I think a lot of the vitriol poured on players and coach alike at times is disgraceful too, regardless of race.... save it for the opposition!

I've never heard a racist comment directed at either and I go most weeks..
I've heard supporters voicing their opinion but its nothing to do with colour/creed and if it were the crowd would vehemently not tolerate it.

Its racism if you cant criticise because of their colour.

Exactly.

I also go nearly every week and have never heard it and would never tolerate it either.

I've actually never heard a racist comment against an oppo player either. I know I haven't because I haven't been involved in an argument re this yet.

I usually sit Aisle 19-20 in the SC area. Where do you sit markp to hear this?

I usually stand, and often move around between quarters... My first comment/sentence was about racism at the footy over the years, and racism in general...

The second sentence was about this case, I do know the difference between slagging off a player and crossing the line... I have heard and seen things at times that are of concern.

Thanks Markp.

I sometimes through work walk around the grounds too, not just Saints games. I find racist comments really rare these days.

Let's hope it is getting less and less as we go.

But at our club, as far as myself and all I know who support us are concerned, any comments are directed at skill only.

[markp]

Thanks Markp.

I sometimes through work walk around the grounds too, not just Saints games. I find racist comments really rare these days.

Let's hope it is getting less and less as we go.

But at our club, as far as myself and all I know who support us are concerned, any comments are directed at skill only.

Sure you're right.... my point is only that we should remain aware of it.

Cheers....

You must be off soon?!

[Iceman234]

Thanks Markp.

I sometimes through work walk around the grounds too, not just Saints games. I find racist comments really rare these days.

Let's hope it is getting less and less as we go.

But at our club, as far as myself and all I know who support us are concerned, any comments are directed at skill only.

Sure you're right.... my point is only that we should remain aware of it.

Cheers....

You must be off soon?!

This time next week the boy and I will be on a stopover at Singapore heading for Amsterdam.....