Has Dal learnt to work through a tag?

[Teflon]

I ask this cause listening to Malthouse discuss H Shaw tonight was interesting...

Shaw's a talented option for the Pies but struggling lately with the attention of taggers. Malthouse acknowldged this and then went on to say his job was to DEVELOP a team and that he wasnt into "smoke and mirrors" coaching whereby he could move Shaw to FF or other places to lose a tag - but what would he learn? and when the time came in a big game when the Pies needed him theyd be left with a guy who had nowhere to hide and who still couldnt break a tag...In Malthouse view Shaw would work out himself whats required to break tags - and hed be better for it.

It made me think of Dal Santo. Has he really learnt to break a tag yet?

Super talented but the moves we make by playing him back (we've done it for some time) etc - is that helping him overcome tags?...are we teaching him anything?

Hes a real target for opposition for sure - he can set us up with his skills and most opposition sides fear the footy in his hands.......

[Spinner]

Who really breaks tags?

In perspective we define overcoming a tag as a performance that is socially normative to the rest of the competition. Just imagine the performances of blokes like Judd and alike if they didnt have a tag week in and week out....

Bit like horse racing, dosn't really 'break away' from the weights. Just produces a performance that is better than the rest of the field. The more so in doing, the more weight continually added.

No one breaks tags. They are always there.

[bigred]

Good players can get a kick regardless of having an opposition player 100% committed to not letting them get a kick.

Nick Dal Santo cannot do this.

[The_Dud]

not even Judd or Ablett can break tags every game

Dals doing a fine job considering he is probably the only player in our midfield who is tagged every week

[spert]

Ablett was heavily tagged in yesterday's game and still had an influence..he just works harder. NDS has made absolutely no progress in his defensive game which is why he is not up with the elite, and in my mind, going backwards until he finds the overdrive gear..but he has been at the same pace since I first saw him in 2003.

[vacuous space]

Ablett was heavily tagged in yesterday's game and still had an influence..he just works harder. NDS has made absolutely no progress in his defensive game which is why he is not up with the elite, and in my mind, going backwards until he finds the overdrive gear..but he has been at the same pace since I first saw him in 2003.

When Ablett runs off his man - which he does all game long - one of his teammates will help him out on the rebound. Dal's teammates are too busy accounting for their men to give him any help. Ablett's teammates block for him at stoppages and find him with the ball in general play. Dal just doesn't get the same kind of support that Ablett does. Given that Dal doesn't have the speed or strength that Ablett does, he needs more help getting away from his man, not less.

It's an unfair comparison anyway. Ablett's the best midfielder on the best team in the comp. Dal plays for a bottom 8 side where all of the star players are struggling to have any kind of consistent impact on games. If you swapped Roo for Buddy and Ablett for Dal, they'd just face the same problems. Fact is, Ablett and Buddy play in gameplans designed to get them the ball. At this stage, I have no idea what our gameplan is supposed to do when it works right. Right now we're doing a terrible job of getting the ball into the hands of our star players.

[matrix]

im sorry...but dont even start to compare NDS to ablett.

dal isnt anywhere close to him.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Nick Dal Santo would have to run close to being the most under-appreciated player by his own teams fans. I suppose it's inevitable considering people were compating his potential to Ian Stewart early in his career, so people want him to be the best mid in the comp, but NDS is an A grade midfielder playing in a dysfunctional midfield (to go with our dysfuntional forward line and dysfuntional backline)... get the rest of the midfield singing, and he'll be the gamebreaker. It would make a huge difference if he lifted his output to Ablett like levels all by himself... but the only team not wishing a midfielder would perform like Ablett is Geelong...

[Sobraz]

In recent weeks ive found Dal hasnt been tagged anywhere nearly as tight as he has in the past... Lenny and Joey have copped more attention, and by no surpirse Dal has been playng ok for the past few weeks...

But i real terms, no, Dal has not learnt to break tags like Ablett, Judd can these days... Harvs wrote the book on it, but Dal doesnt work as hard as him, or the aforementioned for that matter, so he's still got a long was to go...

[spert]

Still, I would trade NDS for a more physical, running midfielder..sure NDS is no Ablett, but Ablett like any top player, also wins the hard ball -its not all about being protected by team mates..there are times where you have to take a bit of responsibility and put your body into the tough contest..take note NDS, Montagna, Milne.

[vacuous space]

sure NDS is no Ablett, but Ablett like any top player, also wins the hard ball

Dal Santo wins plenty of his own ball. He's no Gary Ablett. Right now, nobody is. Even Chris Judd has never done what Ablett is doing right now. Dal Santo doesn't compare to either of those two. Against the other hundreds of midfielders in the league, Dal Santo stacks up pretty well. The way Lenny and Bally are playing right now, the last thing we need is to swap out Dal Santo for a Daniel Harris type.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Still, I would trade NDS for a more physical, running midfielder..sure NDS is no Ablett, but Ablett like any top player, also wins the hard ball -its not all about being protected by team mates..there are times where you have to take a bit of responsibility and put your body into the tough contest..take note NDS, Montagna, Milne.

Bet if we did that, we'd either find ourselves with (at best) another Ball or Hayes who finds their contested ball wasted by the rest of the team and rarely finds the space to do much else, or (more likely) another player (like Dal) who goes from being good at winning contested ball to winning less contested ball, or (most likely of all) another tagger (assuming we get the kind of player I assume you mean - a Sewell/Ling type).

[bigcarl]

i'd like to see dal given a run at half forward alongside riewoldt.

in tandem the two of them would be devastating given a half decent supply of the ball and it certainly would make the opposition think twice about concentrating all their resources on either one.

however, as i'm sure some will be quick to point out, we are struggling to get the ball into our forward line with any sort of system or regularity.

it's the old chicken and egg argument. you can't win games if you can't kick goals ... you can't kick goals if you can't get the ball into your forward line.

perhaps if the experiment of adding bj, fisher and gram to the midfield rotation is successful we could afford to give it a try.

a very creative and skilled player is dal santo and would be worth a lot more to the forwardline than the two or three he'd kick himself in terms of keeping the ball in there and delivery to the other forwards.

it might help him get back to match-winning form, rather than just being a better than average performer and boy do we need a spark from somewhere

[BigMart]

Some absolute morons on here......

with short memories.......

[iwantmeseats]

Must work.\run harder, must. Nothing will change till then. Its up to him, not to rely on the rest to "block" for him. Hell, they have their hands full trying to get their own s*** together!

[The Oracale]

Chris Judd is leading the competition in contested possessions.

You are comparing Apples and Oranges with this Dal Santo vs. Judd/Ablett notion.

If you were to compare him to midfielders from Carlton and Geelong he would be compared to outside players like James Kelly and Andrew Carrazzo (who incidently doesn't play as a midfielder much anymore).

In comparison with those 2 - Dal Santo is well above.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Chris Judd is leading the competition in contested possessions.

You are comparing Apples and Oranges with this Dal Santo vs. Judd/Ablett notion.

If you were to compare him to midfielders from Carlton and Geelong he would be compared to outside players like James Kelly and Andrew Carrazzo (who incidently doesn't play as a midfielder much anymore).

In comparison with those 2 - Dal Santo is well above.

Prior to this year, Dal's always had a high contested possession ration. This year he's a touch under 30%.


People often mistake him for an outside mid due to his high disposal efficiency, but he's actually never been great at commanding the handball receives and marks to give himself that opportunity (one of the key elements of being tagged he needs to overcome). In fact, I'd argue that for the last 18 months, Dal's been hampered as we try to find him more cheap ball, at the sacrifice of his contested stats, with a grand result of breaking even on the possessions but ending up with Dal holding the ball in less damaging situations.

In spite of no longer being the fixture in the centre he once was, he's still 3rd in the contested possessions and clearances (and to be fair to others, probably 3rd in the amount of time spent in the middle too, even with spending more time on the wing or down back).

The trouble isn't that it's apples and oranges to compare Dal to Judd and Ablett, it's the view that being anything less than those two is some sort of failing on his part... I wish he was, and smashing his taggers would be the sign that he was at that level - and I certainly believe we should be getting more from Dal than we are at the moment, but criticising guys like Roo and Dal for not being Buddy and Ablett is unrealistic, and does too little credit to guys like Buddy and Ablett.

[Dan Warna]

I though NDS was 3rd or 4th at st kilda for hard ball gets?

really if its 'soft' players we want to get rid off, why get rid off the 3rd or 4th best hard ball winner?

for what? another schneider?

NDS isn't the problem.

[sunsaint]

NDS isn't the problem.

Sorry Dan couldnt resist.

As the OP stated Shaw had to go to a new level to mark his place in the side and todays game. As other posters have noted Ablett had to improve his game to become the premier geelong onballer, and become one of the games best.
NDS has gone backwards.
just as Roos' goal kicking skills has evaporated.
Just as Kosi has not delivered.
ditto the Clarkes.
etc

[The_Dud]

rubbish he's gone backwards

he's just copping the number one tag each week, unlike 2 years ago

he is as good a player now as he has ever been

[Behind Play]

Nick knows the tag he has to break

[Behind Play]

I am certain you will see the Dal of old this weekend.

Come on Dal you can do it.

[BelfastSaint]

I am certain you will see the Dal of old this weekend.

Come on Dal you can do it.

Might just have to wait another week or so .......

[matrix]

i know...bit of a friggin joke really.

[spert]

The Dal of old is the same old Dal..just that the oppostion has worked him out since 2004.