A view of this forum and of supporters as a whole

[luckysaint]

There seems to be a particular (and rather spectacular) trait with this club's supporters that whenever the team hits a road-block that immediate action needs to be taken generally in the form of "X players and coaching staff need to be sacked ASAP". A particular word that gets bandied about is the mythical "re-build". We need to move on from this.

It's been well documented that the a lot of people have the messiah complex, expecting something big to happen from one person, or one action, that will result in this club obtaining premiership.
There has been a lot of sour grapes, that after those dark years we had in the early 00s and the rich drafts that we benefited from, that we deserved or we are owed a premiership. Well history shows that we haven't, and some people need to get a grip. No delisting/trading 10-12 players or sacking the coaching staff will make one IOTA of difference about it now.

If we look at some of the more successful clubs, like Brisbane this year or Port/Adelaide, they haven't dwelt in the cellar for years on end. They've been fighting all the way for a spot at the top. This is something that we need to do, it's a process that takes patience, but just look at the benefits.
This is the sort of culture that we need to adopt into our own club.

We need to get over this ingrained bitterness at our club's heritage/lack of success.

[brown-coat]

No. I don't want to turn into the "Brisbanes" or "Sydneys" with their great winning culture and endless flags.

I want to keep the messiah complex because it is unique to stkilda.


Why do you want to be a clone of those "great" clubs and throw away our glorious phoenix like culture where we destroy everything in turmoil and chaos then rebuild it to try and create a perfect storm.

I love the current stkilda culture.

We need to sack everyone and wait for the messiah, by the way. Especially sack the boot studders.

[StNoodles]

that's all crap

i don't like this guy. ban him

[brown-coat]

Agreed. That was a really woeful post luckysaint, you'll be lucky if you last 3 days here!

[luckysaint]

Agreed. That was a really woeful post luckysaint, you'll be lucky if you last 3 days here!

I've lasted three years already here at least

make that 4

[Saints Premiers 2008]

There seems to be a particular (and rather spectacular) trait with this club's supporters that whenever the team hits a road-block that immediate action needs to be taken generally in the form of "X players and coaching staff need to be sacked ASAP". A particular word that gets bandied about is the mythical "re-build". We need to move on from this.

It's been well documented that the a lot of people have the messiah complex, expecting something big to happen from one person, or one action, that will result in this club obtaining premiership.
There has been a lot of sour grapes, that after those dark years we had in the early 00s and the rich drafts that we benefited from, that we deserved or we are owed a premiership. Well history shows that we haven't, and some people need to get a grip. No delisting/trading 10-12 players or sacking the coaching staff will make one IOTA of difference about it now.

If we look at some of the more successful clubs, like Brisbane this year or Port/Adelaide, they haven't dwelt in the cellar for years on end. They've been fighting all the way for a spot at the top. This is something that we need to do, it's a process that takes patience, but just look at the benefits.
This is the sort of culture that we need to adopt into our own club.

We need to get over this ingrained bitterness at our club's heritage/lack of success.

good post mate

i still believe we do not need a rebuild...our core is still superb and the benefits are there to be seen with good drafting over the next few years...although winning a premiership this year remains a distant possibility in comparison to previous, it is still there and we will become a better unit for the harder times

there is no douting we will cut a lot of the crap that is around at the end of the year...no need to name drop but its obvious who will go and it will be a larger dislisting than usual

i am a strong believer in all we realy need a few really good kids, a kid or two that get drafted and play most games in the year...they generate excitement for both other players and supporters...how good would it have been to have both armo and palmer in our side from round 1 ownwards???

if we do not draft well we will become a 4-8 team which is essentially useless...it would also be useless to finish last and not draft well either...you may get a great kid with pick 1-3 however a team still has to draft well with second rounders onwards...look at carlton...3 number one's wont make a team plus judd...they are still s***

off the beaten track here...ah well

[Cairnsman]

I have a question: who are the Messiah's of recent times? I'll kick it off with:

Tony Locket
Nick Riewoldt

[bigcarl]

Grant Thomas

[evertonfc]

Messiah's don't work?

Matthews at Brisbane. Blight at Adelaide. Barrassi at Carlton...?

It's not about messiahs per se, it's about the strategies, plans and practices they have.

Some say Thomas created a cult of himself. Rubbish. He brought strategies, plans and practices that enabled the club to move forward.

Sometimes a bit of direction from one individual is enough to inspire others. If only Obama could coach...

[Bernard Shakey]

The reason Brisbane and Port continue to be successful is that they have real coaches, that the players respect.

Would anyone be game to ignore Lethal or Choco? I don't think so.

Would Lyon put the fear of God in you? I don't think so.

[saintbrat]

There seems to be a particular (and rather spectacular) trait with this club's supporters that whenever the team hits a road-block that immediate action needs to be taken generally in the form of "X players and coaching staff need to be sacked ASAP". A particular word that gets bandied about is the mythical "re-build". We need to move on from this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

this relates well to an article I read yesterday that struck me as what happens regularly on here and in other' new media'

http://insidefootballonline.com/main.html
BLOGGERS GIVING BARRACKERS A BAD NAME

With the exception of my own dear readers, I get the impression most football fans have mashed potatoes for brains.
How else do you account for their match-day antics, calls to radio talkback and, worst of all, online blogs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And it’s just as bad as threads on other web­sites, with players bagged mercilessly, often with the bloggers adopting a pack mentality.
Clubs recently have suggested they do not want their players reading websites and it has been reported that some players have suffered depression over the online criticism. I’m not surprised.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

[luckysaint]

Messiah's don't work?

Matthews at Brisbane. Blight at Adelaide. Barrassi at Carlton...?

Barrassi was in another era, when there was no draft or cap.

Blight took 9 seasons at the helm of the Cats and the Crows before he finally won one. (Yes, he did take the Cats to 3 GFs, but he didn't win any!)

Matthews was sacked in 95 by Collingwood and wasn't brought out of retirement until Brisbane thought they'd give him a shot in 99, so he was hardly the messiah.

[Teflon]

Messiah's don't work?

Matthews at Brisbane. Blight at Adelaide. Barrassi at Carlton...?

It's not about messiahs per se, it's about the strategies, plans and practices they have.

Some say Thomas created a cult of himself. Rubbish. He brought strategies, plans and practices that enabled the club to move forward.

Sometimes a bit of direction from one individual is enough to inspire others. If only Obama could coach...

Sorry but to somehow infer that Thomas even remotely fits into that category as a"messiah" is supremely gilding the lilly......just cant put my finger on what Blight, Matthews and Barrassi have in common...that Grant doesnt?

EVERY coach comes to a club believing in their strategies, plans yada yada - the proofs in implementing them and that can sometimes take time depending where your clubs at IMO list wise etc AND in your ability to DEVELOP players as a coach something IMHO we have not had at St Kilda for a very long time.

We had a tilt at flags in recent years and rightly so. In doing so we topped up with second string players to get one. It didnt work. We dont have a lot coming through now and so will pay for that till we get some talent.

That will take time.

[rodgerfox]

In doing so we topped up with second string players to get one.

Topped up? Who did we recruit who was over the age of 21?

Recruiting kids is hardly topping up is it?

[SENsei]

In doing so we topped up with second string players to get one.

Topped up? Who did we recruit who was over the age of 21?

Recruiting kids is hardly topping up is it?

Ackland, Black, Fiora & Powell, in Thomas's time.

Clarke, King, Gardiner, Gardiner, Schneider, Birss in Lyon's time.

From memory.

[fingers]

Sorry to steal from work but this is all about 3 dimensions. Political, Emotional and Rational.

Everyone (almost) can get the Rational bit - this is about the game plan, the match-ups, the technical, the stuff that can be taught and learnt.

Political - is all about managing the board, the media and the sponsors etc. Not everyone can do this but you can get people to help with hit.

Emotional - this is about winning the hearts and minds. Getting the players to play for the jumper or each other. VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN DO THIS. This is the edge that great coaches have. Barassi could, Thompson (either through his own doing or because the players decided) got the players completely aligned last year, Matthews does it.

For my take this is the hardest step a coach makes from assistant to senior and what has been missing for us. I think this is what RL might be struggling with. I say "might" because I don't see what goes in in the rooms during the week or before and during a game.

Some players find it within themselves (Hayes, Harvey, Hudghton) - maybe your name needs to start with an "H" ??? Other players need to be dragged there....it will always be the single biggest challenge and will take time.

I think we will get there - but even in the absence of evidence I'm always a half full kind of guy

Fingers

[Otiman]

Emotional - this is about winning the hearts and minds. Getting the players to play for the jumper or each other. VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN DO THIS. This is the edge that great coaches have. Barassi could, Thompson (either through his own doing or because the players decided) got the players completely aligned last year, Matthews does it.

Spot on. Lyon may get there, he may not. He has another year on his contract to do so.

[fingers]

Emotional - this is about winning the hearts and minds. Getting the players to play for the jumper or each other. VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN DO THIS. This is the edge that great coaches have. Barassi could, Thompson (either through his own doing or because the players decided) got the players completely aligned last year, Matthews does it.

Spot on. Lyon may get there, he may not. He has another year on his contract to do so.

This takes so much time. How long was Thompson at Geelong before he got it? Only exceptional people have the ability to do it quickly.

[rodgerfox]

Emotional - this is about winning the hearts and minds. Getting the players to play for the jumper or each other. VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN DO THIS. This is the edge that great coaches have. Barassi could, Thompson (either through his own doing or because the players decided) got the players completely aligned last year, Matthews does it.

Spot on. Lyon may get there, he may not. He has another year on his contract to do so.

This takes so much time. How long was Thompson at Geelong before he got it? Only exceptional people have the ability to do it quickly.

Thompson got it very quickly.

He had them in a prelim in 04 remember.

Had them looking dangerous in 03 too.

Then injuries cost them a prelim against us in 05 (which they would have probably won considering our injuries).

Then in 06 they were decimated.

07 they had a fit and full list.

[JeffDunne]

Emotional - this is about winning the hearts and minds. Getting the players to play for the jumper or each other. VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN DO THIS. This is the edge that great coaches have. Barassi could, Thompson (either through his own doing or because the players decided) got the players completely aligned last year, Matthews does it.

Spot on. Lyon may get there, he may not. He has another year on his contract to do so.

This takes so much time. How long was Thompson at Geelong before he got it? Only exceptional people have the ability to do it quickly.

Talk about a bloody cop out.

[fingers]

Emotional - this is about winning the hearts and minds. Getting the players to play for the jumper or each other. VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN DO THIS. This is the edge that great coaches have. Barassi could, Thompson (either through his own doing or because the players decided) got the players completely aligned last year, Matthews does it.

Spot on. Lyon may get there, he may not. He has another year on his contract to do so.

This takes so much time. How long was Thompson at Geelong before he got it? Only exceptional people have the ability to do it quickly.

Thompson got it very quickly.

He had them in a prelim in 04 remember.

Had them looking dangerous in 03 too.

Then injuries cost them a prelim against us in 05 (which they would have probably won considering our injuries).

Then in 06 they were decimated.

07 they had a fit and full list.

Yes - I have no idea when Thompson got there. It was a genuine question. But how different were they last year to the previous finals appearances. In 04 and 03 they were like us - young, arrogant, new blood. That fades as we have seen and then it becomes about other things.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

There seems to be a particular (and rather spectacular) trait with this club's supporters that whenever the team hits a road-block that immediate action needs to be taken generally in the form of "X players and coaching staff need to be sacked ASAP". A particular word that gets bandied about is the mythical "re-build". We need to move on from this.

It's been well documented that the a lot of people have the messiah complex, expecting something big to happen from one person, or one action, that will result in this club obtaining premiership.
There has been a lot of sour grapes, that after those dark years we had in the early 00s and the rich drafts that we benefited from, that we deserved or we are owed a premiership. Well history shows that we haven't, and some people need to get a grip. No delisting/trading 10-12 players or sacking the coaching staff will make one IOTA of difference about it now.

If we look at some of the more successful clubs, like Brisbane this year or Port/Adelaide, they haven't dwelt in the cellar for years on end. They've been fighting all the way for a spot at the top. This is something that we need to do, it's a process that takes patience, but just look at the benefits.
This is the sort of culture that we need to adopt into our own club.

We need to get over this ingrained bitterness at our club's heritage/lack of success.

the teams you talk about are sucessful because they know how to rebuild properly they have the forward vision to see what is worth more recriuting in the now or for the future ... its also a luxury the big clubs and interstate clubs can get away with as they have enough power in the market place to develop for the future .

the main problem is that we were told by the club after the turmoil and outright lows of the early 00 and late 90's this was going to be the start of a new era of successful Stkilda , we had a coach talking up 2 flags in a 10 year span we had a president who was assured we would stay on top of the ladder for many years to come and we believed it because we wanted it to be true .
we call for rebuild in the hope we may get the magic formular to snag a flag , the fact is a Flag is a damn hard thing to get and alot of factors have to go your way to get one , we seem to think we are owed and deserve one but we never look at if we worked hard enuff for one ?
the reason i call for rebuild and the axing of players is simple we have a list full of capable players who all working to their max potential can lead us towards a flag but its pointless having these players if all they are is potential

[spert]

Thompson doesn't pull the strings at Geelong -Costa and Co put the right people alongside him when they saw the club treading water..nothing like our GT trying to run the whole show himself during his time. The Board and President run the club and determine its direction and I am worried about Westaway's throw-away statement about Lyon and 10 years etc..sounds directionless and weak.

[SteveStevens66]

....I am worried about Westaway's throw-away statement about Lyon and 10 years etc..sounds directionless and weak.

Spot on! That's exactly what it sounds like.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

....I am worried about Westaway's throw-away statement about Lyon and 10 years etc..sounds directionless and weak.

Spot on! That's exactly what it sounds like.

no it sounded to me like he hopes RL proves his doubters wrong and becomes a 10year coach but you can draw what ever negatives out of it you like