See you in 10 years...

[m_m]

cya then

[Mr Magic]

Is there actually a football reason you don't think he is any good?

Are you serious??

I wouldn't have asked you if I wasn't.
It seems quite apparent to me, and I suspect a number of other posters, that your current lack of support for Lyon has more to do with the fact that he was appointed by the Butters led Board rather than anything to do with football.
If I am incorrect I would love to hear what the football related issue(s) are from you?

[rodgerfox]

Is there actually a football reason you don't think he is any good?

Are you serious??

I wouldn't have asked you if I wasn't.
It seems quite apparent to me, and I suspect a number of other posters, that your current lack of support for Lyon has more to do with the fact that he was appointed by the Butters led Board rather than anything to do with football.
If I am incorrect I would love to hear what the football related issue(s) are from you?

Well if you checked your facts, you'd find that I was very happy with Lyon's appointment, and defended him strongly early on.

That support wayned after last year.

It is pretty much gone now.

The reasons are 100% football related. Not sure if you read the papers, but we missed the 8 last year, and are 5-5 this year.

We have recruited discards from other clubs, play without cohesion and have had no improvement in individual players. As a team, we function miserably at best.

Our skills are poor, we look disinterested most times, and apparently cannot adhere to a game plan for more than 1 quarter at a time.

I like Ross Lyon. I was happy with his appointment, and I loved him as a player - however I don't think he has what it takes with our group.

That's not to say he can't coach - it's to say he can't coach us right now. And that does happen. Sometimes an average coach gels with his group - other times a great coach gets nothing out of a list.


If someone can give me a football related reason why he is a good coach, then I'd like to hear it.

[Mr Magic]

Thank you for finally spelling it out.
I have no idea whether you were a supporter of Lyon or not - I wasn't here when the appointment was made. I was here during the last year and noted your displeasure with anything to do with the Butters administration, and given the nature of your incessant bagging of Lyon without actually giving reasons, had just assumed that it was because he was appointed by the Butters Board. Now you have straightened that out.
I look forward to reading your positive thoughts about Lyon and the Team when we continue on 'our roll to the finals'.

[Saints43]

I don't care how confusing the game plan is to 50% of our supporter base, as long as we win.

So you're part of the 50% that does understnd it?

Please fill me in.

One thing this thread highlights is how hard the team has to work to get an opportunity on goal. I find it disheartening. I reckon our soft players do too. I know the kicking at goal has been an issue but I think the premium on our shots has something to do with it (Sunday aside as Melbourne were pathetic).

Anyway looking forward to having the gameplan explained...

[perfectionist]

Rodger is actually an optimist, because the world will end in 9.4 years (just after our nineth consecutive premiership).

[Mr Magic]

I don't care how confusing the game plan is to 50% of our supporter base, as long as we win.

So you're part of the 50% that does understnd it?

Please fill me in.

One thing this thread highlights is how hard the team has to work to get an opportunity on goal. I find it disheartening. I reckon our soft players do too. I know the kicking at goal has been an issue but I think the premium on our shots has something to do with it (Sunday aside as Melbourne were pathetic).

Anyway looking forward to having the gameplan explained...

As far as I can tell it has 2 parts.

Part 1
We win the centre clearance and kick the ball to a leading forward, who marks and kicks the goal, or if our midfielder with the ball has enough clear space in front of him, he runs into the F50 and goals himself.

Part 2
We don't win the centre claearance and have to get the ball back from our opposition somehow.
We attempt to smother the opposition who are working on a gameplan of not 'bombibg it in long to a contest' so we corral them, forcing them to look sideways. Eventually they will tire of this and kick the ball to a contest where we will hopefully get the ball. We then run it out, because so many of our players have worked back to clog the defensive zone. Where we get held up is that we have to wait for our forward options to get back from defense. In the meantime the opposition have all flooded back into their defensive zone to force us to kick long to a contest. SO we go sideways to a teammate until we are forced to kick it long to a contest.

This goes on for a while - backwards and forwards until a team actually scores a goal.
Then the ball goes back to the middle where we try to use Part A of our gameplan (as highlighted above).

How's that?

[perfectionist]

Ah, cynicism -where would we be without it? Unfortunately, you are 90% correct (you forgot Robert Harvey).

[iwantmeseats]

Once everyone comes to grips with the fact that we are not in the hunt this year, the more we can move on to what needs to be done to improve the team.

Ferguson was a good inclusion, Armo is a prospect, Geary looks OK, we have Gilbo coming back, Luke Ball looks back to somewhere near his best, Goddard will keep improving, we still have Stevens and Eddy to have a shot as well as McEvoy and the core is still young.

However we need to look forward. Not at 2008 but at next season. RodgerFox is just being a bit mischevious saying 10 years, but the crux of what he posts is pretty spot on.

We need to look down the track. We need to actually gear up this draft and next before the compromised drafts take effect.

Just try to enjoy the footy and concentrate more on our future than 2008.

We are just not up to it.

I just hate having to agree with you JB! I really do ! But this is where its at.

[kalsaint]

melbourne are vfl standard.

And stkilda is bottom 4 standard. We are totally out of their league here! Bring on a challenge! Bring on Freo!

Their? Who? Bulldogs?

I hate Freo St Kilda games...always some kind of umpiring controvesy. The AFL can't help themselves...forget development, just let Freo lose in peace!

Anyway...I digress.

I can assure you that Freo dont lose in peace. You should see some of their "supporters" at the moment. They are livid. The WA press is most unforgiving and their recent record, 5 consecutive losses from 3/4 time winning positions, has them stymied much like many of us here on this site.

Against Melbourne, we won well and received percentage but there were many lost opportunities that we cannot afford to relinquish against better sides.

As a comment to other previous responsese I offer the following:

Other sides wont allow the same level of freedom to running backmen and the poor delivery to forwards is expected to worsen with more opposition pressure. I have numbered what I expect needs addressing below.
1 The poor delivery aspect of our game still needs fixing as does our ability to kick set shots at goal.

With the run through the corridor in numbers and slick handpassing you would expect:
2 more midfielders to score goals. This needs to be fixed.
3 More inside 50 marks from alternatives to Roo. This needs to be fixed.
4 The problem is when we kick the ball we risk turnovers. This needs fixing to be a better placed side.

Until the above is sorted we are still making up numbers and wont be a serious threat as we will remain too inconsistent.

[Leo.J]

Alot of games are won and lost by a clubs playing well as a team and utilising its momentum.

This year to date we have rarely played well as a team. And everytime we've slightly looked like gaining any sort of momentum our average to poor skills around the ground and especially in front of goal have have let us down.

Usually skill levels and confidence go hand in hand. So hopefully this win gives us the confidence needed to execute our game plan and our skills with confidence.

The momentum will follow once we apply pressure on our opposition by kicking goals that we should, and hitting targets we should. The intensity and team work was there on sunday against the Dees. So hopefully Sunday was the launching pad we've needed for our confidence.

Sunday against the Dogs will be very interesting...there's still hope for 08 IMO.

[SainterX]

The simple things are often the best. You could see that the players appreciated the reins being cut loose and not having to play that convoluted gameplan of previous weeks.

It was only Melbourne, but you can only beat who is in front of you the time, but, as proven by the first quarters of the Bulldogs and Cats games if we play enterprising football all the time we can still compete with anyone.


I am actually starting to wonder if Ross Lyon came to St Kilda expecting to be handed a premiership, and now is only starting to realise things are not that easy and he needs to pull his finger out.

[saint66au]

The simple things are often the best. You could see that the players appreciated the reins being cut loose and not having to play that convoluted gameplan of previous weeks.

It was only Melbourne, but you can only beat who is in front of you the time, but, as proven by the first quarters of the Bulldogs and Cats games if we play enterprising football all the time we can still compete with anyone.


I am actually starting to wonder if Ross Lyon came to St Kilda expecting to be handed a premiership, and now is only starting to realise things are not that easy and he needs to pull his finger out.

Sorry...just popping into say that I reckon SainterX's sig is THE best one on here right now

That is all. carry on

[rodgerfox]

Thank you for finally spelling it out.

No, thanks for finally choosing read what I actually wrote. My opinion has been clear for years.

and given the nature of your incessant bagging of Lyon without actually giving reasons, had just assumed that it was because he was appointed by the Butters Board.

WTF??

The nature of my incessant bagging of Lyon?

The 'nature' of my criticism, is, and has only ever been in relation to his coaching ability with us and the results he has achieved.

You appear to be just another one of these 'with us or against us' ignoramus' who don't read what is written, and instead prefer to cast slurs at other posters only based on the thread title or opening sentence of a post.

Pretty pathetic really. And I hope you feel as stupid as you now appear.

[Mr Magic]

Thank you for finally spelling it out.

No, thanks for finally choosing read what I actually wrote. My opinion has been clear for years.

and given the nature of your incessant bagging of Lyon without actually giving reasons, had just assumed that it was because he was appointed by the Butters Board.

WTF??

The nature of my incessant bagging of Lyon?

The 'nature' of my criticism, is, and has only ever been in relation to his coaching ability with us and the results he has achieved.

You appear to be just another one of these 'with us or against us' ignoramus' who don't read what is written, and instead prefer to cast slurs at other posters only based on the thread title or opening sentence of a post.

Pretty pathetic really. And I hope you feel as stupid as you now appear.

Actually I read what you write and that's how I, and it would appear other 'ignoramus', form an opinion on your opinions.

Unfortunately I'm onviously not clever enough to understand your incisive posts in all their wisdom and nuances so you might have to 'dumb them down' a tad so that we 'ignoramus' (is that singular or plural?) aren't forced to feel so 'stupid'.

I look forward with anticipation to your next constructive criticism of our Coach because I would really enjoy being the beneficiary of your all-encompassing knowledge and wisdom on coaching an AFL Club.
Given your authoritative comments you must have had years of actual coaching at AFL level, or at least a rung or 2 below?
Why not let us in on the source of your special knowledge.
Surely it must be more than just watching from the grandstands and on tv like the rest of us plebs?

[rodgerfox]

Actually I read what you write and that's how I, and it would appear other 'ignoramus', form an opinion on your opinions.

Unfortunately I'm onviously not clever enough to understand your incisive posts in all their wisdom and nuances so you might have to 'dumb them down' a tad so that we 'ignoramus' (is that singular or plural?) aren't forced to feel so 'stupid'.

I look forward with anticipation to your next constructive criticism of our Coach because I would really enjoy being the beneficiary of your all-encompassing knowledge and wisdom on coaching an AFL Club.
Given your authoritative comments you must have had years of actual coaching at AFL level, or at least a rung or 2 below?
Why not let us in on the source of your special knowledge.
Surely it must be more than just watching from the grandstands and on tv like the rest of us plebs?

End of discussion.

[bob__71]

Actually I read what you write and that's how I, and it would appear other 'ignoramus', form an opinion on your opinions.

Unfortunately I'm onviously not clever enough to understand your incisive posts in all their wisdom and nuances so you might have to 'dumb them down' a tad so that we 'ignoramus' (is that singular or plural?) aren't forced to feel so 'stupid'.

I look forward with anticipation to your next constructive criticism of our Coach because I would really enjoy being the beneficiary of your all-encompassing knowledge and wisdom on coaching an AFL Club.
Given your authoritative comments you must have had years of actual coaching at AFL level, or at least a rung or 2 below?
Why not let us in on the source of your special knowledge.
Surely it must be more than just watching from the grandstands and on tv like the rest of us plebs?

End of discussion.

Hahahaha why is it the end of discussion....

[rodgerfox]

Actually I read what you write and that's how I, and it would appear other 'ignoramus', form an opinion on your opinions.

Unfortunately I'm onviously not clever enough to understand your incisive posts in all their wisdom and nuances so you might have to 'dumb them down' a tad so that we 'ignoramus' (is that singular or plural?) aren't forced to feel so 'stupid'.

I look forward with anticipation to your next constructive criticism of our Coach because I would really enjoy being the beneficiary of your all-encompassing knowledge and wisdom on coaching an AFL Club.
Given your authoritative comments you must have had years of actual coaching at AFL level, or at least a rung or 2 below?
Why not let us in on the source of your special knowledge.
Surely it must be more than just watching from the grandstands and on tv like the rest of us plebs?

End of discussion.

Hahahaha why is it the end of discussion....

You're welcome to get into a petty, childish slanging match if you like - but I'd prefer not to.

[bob__71]

Just a question then...as a scholar of the game....how will you feel if everything clicks with the team....and they go on to success.

Will you trumpet as loudly that half way 2008 you wrote off the team for ten years and you were wrong.

Or will you claim it's because the team changed and played the way you were calling for.

The reason I'm interested is I obviously watched a completely different game to you on the weekend....I agree they still looked a bit rusty....but the effort was there. They attacked the ball and the man with the ball. So, when I read the OP about how we should have been better and would fail for 10 years...I discovered that you must have a very different Idea about how football is played to myself. As nice as silky skills are footy games are still won with grunt work IMO.

The other problem being that I find most of your posts very cryptic, and I don't know if this is an attempt to sound smart, or if its so you never actually reveal your opinion.

[degruch]

Hey, I didn't profess to know what the game plan was, smart-arses.

But, from what I can see, the game plan looks to me to be:

(a) Attack: Win centre clearance, set up tall forward, kick goal. If tall forward misses, advancing midfielders or small forwards mop up. Same as everyone else. Doesn't work when tall forwards don't mark, small forwards and midfielders don't apply pressure. Ball shoots back out of defense with midfielders standing on the half-forward line (ala Geelong game).

(b) Defense: Midfield drops back across half back line, loose half back defender drops back into defense and mops up. Move the ball sideways to draw opposition defense, then pass to advancing tall forward whilst small forwards drop back into attack. Doesn't work when attack plan fails and ball moved too quickly into defense (ala last Bulldogs game), when halfback's disposal is rubbish, or their defense gets back to cover our small forwards (ala Collingwood game).

HOWEVER, if everyone does their job properly, it should work fine. Bit defensive, but if it wins games, whatever. Of course, it also assume ascendancy at stoppages, which requires players to be hard at the ball...and we all know what's been happening there until recently.

As for Freo...they're terrible...my WA friends compare them to St Kilda all the time, to which I scoff. Without umpiring assistance they'd have been lucky to get the points over us the last several occasions. The club has never had to recruit, because everyone returns home to them, generating a team full of self-centred party boys that are better at punching people in nightclubs than they are kicking a footy...they deserve to be where they are right now. Of course, you could have said the same of St Kilda (re: the latter half of my diatribe) in the early 00's, but we got what we deserved then as well.

Looks like it'll be the Bulldogs minus Murphy this Sunday, which will help. Although, charges rarely stick when challenged.

[rodgerfox]

Just a question then...as a scholar of the game....how will you feel if everything clicks with the team....and they go on to success.

Will you trumpet as loudly that half way 2008 you wrote off the team for ten years and you were wrong.

Absolutely.

If we do win a flag - or even make the top 4 I will be completely wrong. And I really hope that I am.

[bigred]

Rodgerfox is pretty much spot on I'm afraid.

Yeah, it was a big win. Big margin and boost to our percentage.

I've watched the replay a few times now and I have to say this.....

We suck..... many, many deficiencies.

We are a long way from top 4.

Sure, there were a few positives. Hunting in packs, 2's & 3's at the ball. Solid four quarter effort.

Clearances and ruck feeds were great. Makes a nice change.

The run off half back, was seriously good. As good as ANY side in the comp.

Our finishing is absolutely pathetic.

Woefull.

That SHOULD have been a 120+ thrashing. No two ways about it. Our delivery and finish is just plain ordinary.

And we still leak goals. Melbourne should not have scored in the last quarter. The reason that they did, is because our foot was well and truly off the gas, in full cruise control. Still frightfully unaccountable.

Any of the sides in the top eight can kick eight goals in a quarter. Easy. our backline is leaking goals as much as it ever has in the past ten years. Serious deficiancy there.

I see 90% of our list as complacent. Lazy.

Soft....that was my call weeks ago. I didnt see enough to change my view.

I will be going to the doggies game hoping for a hard effort. 100% intensity will get us over the line. But I think that we are absolutely mentally fragile. Sides like the bulldogs will smell that from a mile away and absolutely punish us, Just like they did last time we met.

A win is a win is a win and I'm definatly breathing easier since we actually won last week, but that win does not a season make. There were no signs of any corner being turned...Not in my eyes.

I'm of the opinion that we need to be blooding kids, no knee jerking....but slowly getting game time into them. Armo looks a player, but we have to keep him from going to the gold coast (99% sure that he will bail). Drop King and bring up the young fella. Keep playing Gards, King is here for a superanuation top up.

Its another "also ran" year in my eyes.

I hate to say it, but honestly, most of our players are seemingly going through the motions. I dont think they work as hard as our competition.

The mere fact that Robert Harvey would be coming second in our B & F to Lenny Hayes really shows up our list for what they are. From our captain down.

I dont rate us, no one rates us and there is good reason for it.

I dont think its definitive coaching issue. But WTF, when we are as lazy as we are, where should the buck stop?

[Otiman]

I'm of the opinion that we need to be blooding kids, no knee jerking....but slowly getting game time into them. Armo looks a player, but we have to keep him from going to the gold coast (99% sure that he will bail).

Now, my geography may not be too spot on, but Melbourne is not much further from the Gold Coast as Mackay is.

[JeffDunne]

The mere fact that Robert Harvey would be coming second in our B & F to Lenny Hayes really shows up our list for what they are. From our captain down.

That comment makes absolutely no sense to me.

[The Fireman]

The mere fact that Robert Harvey would be coming second in our B & F to Lenny Hayes really shows up our list for what they are. From our captain down.

That comment makes absolutely no sense to me.

It seems that even one of our own supporters doesn't realise how much a champion Sir Robert Harvey is.