http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/ ... and_dagger
WHO’S CLOGGING YOUR TEAM’S LIST?
ST KILDA
Adam Schneider
Fraser Gehrig
Aaron Fiora
Michael Rix
Raphael Clarke
Garry Lyon: List Cloggers
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evertonfc
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His theory is spot on, but he's failed to name a whole heap of our list cloggers (players who aren't going to play in your team's next premiership).
Schneider is a massive asset for this club once we get him right. He was excellent pre-injury. Give him time, he will come good.
Schneider is an extremely important player for our club - combine him with X Clarke and Milne (when he's not playing on or f****** up) and we've got a reasonable small forward line. Getting on his back does nothing - we've been crying out for a player like him for ages.
Lyon lists our list-cloggers as Adam Schneider, Fraser Gehrig, Aaron Fiora
Michael Rix, Raphael Clarke. The last four are correct.
But now you can add Blake, Dempster, Birss, L Fisher, Jones and Gwilt to the list. By the end of the year, Howard might be there as well if he hasn't forced his way into the first team.
Our level of deadwood is staggering. Only Leigh Fisher would command interest at trade week, and the rest would be straight delistings - but we probably can't delist them all at once because it would leave too big a hole.
I'd probably keep Dempster, Birss and Fiora (and get whatever we could for Fisher) - they mount ever so slightly stronger cases than the others - although all three are realistically not going to play in our next premiership.
Schneider is a massive asset for this club once we get him right. He was excellent pre-injury. Give him time, he will come good.
Schneider is an extremely important player for our club - combine him with X Clarke and Milne (when he's not playing on or f****** up) and we've got a reasonable small forward line. Getting on his back does nothing - we've been crying out for a player like him for ages.
Lyon lists our list-cloggers as Adam Schneider, Fraser Gehrig, Aaron Fiora
Michael Rix, Raphael Clarke. The last four are correct.
But now you can add Blake, Dempster, Birss, L Fisher, Jones and Gwilt to the list. By the end of the year, Howard might be there as well if he hasn't forced his way into the first team.
Our level of deadwood is staggering. Only Leigh Fisher would command interest at trade week, and the rest would be straight delistings - but we probably can't delist them all at once because it would leave too big a hole.
I'd probably keep Dempster, Birss and Fiora (and get whatever we could for Fisher) - they mount ever so slightly stronger cases than the others - although all three are realistically not going to play in our next premiership.
Clueless and mediocre petty tyrant.
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st.byron
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Agree with most of your post Everton, especially re Schneider. He's yet to deliver at St.Kilda, but he's a good small forward who I'd keep. I think calls to de-list him are premature.evertonfc wrote:
I'd probably keep Dempster, Birss and Fiora (and get whatever we could for Fisher) - they mount ever so slightly stronger cases than the others - although all three are realistically not going to play in our next premiership.
Don't agree with you though on Fiora. Why on earth would you keep him? What's he offer that makes him worth keeping? He's had chance after chance to deliver and he doesn't. Time to get rid of him.
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evertonfc
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Oh mate, I would get rid of he, Dempster and Birss if I could. But how many can you realistically delist in a year?st.byron wrote:Agree with most of your post Everton, especially re Schneider. He's yet to deliver at St.Kilda, but he's a good small forward who I'd keep. I think calls to de-list him are premature.evertonfc wrote:
I'd probably keep Dempster, Birss and Fiora (and get whatever we could for Fisher) - they mount ever so slightly stronger cases than the others - although all three are realistically not going to play in our next premiership.
Don't agree with you though on Fiora. Why on earth would you keep him? What's he offer that makes him worth keeping? He's had chance after chance to deliver and he doesn't. Time to get rid of him.
Dempster has played in a premiership and probably deserves another year to prove himself. Birss can come in an play a role. Fiora has previously shown he is capable of playing decent football (he did it for much of last year).
If I had to save three, they'd be the three I'd save because they can play as back-ups. In an ideal world, they'd be chopped in an instant because they're not good enough.
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St DAC
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Birss (this year at least) has been the best of those three by far. My list would be:
Fiora
Gwilt
Gehrig
Dempster
Gardiner, C
Rix stays as the cheap spare ruckman. Even as a carbon rod player he at least jumps into a contest (unlike for example Ackland).
Schneider stays; he's a clever half forward whose only managed 6-7 games. Far too early to chop him; we actually do need a clever half forward.
Raph stays; he's got another year on contract, and does possess talent. He should get his last year and evaluate then.
Birss I've already commented on.
Fiora goes; had plenty of time, just doesn't do enough. Ditto Gwilt. Dempster was a steak knife in the Schneider deal, and doesn't show much IMO. Gardiner, C ditto.
Gehrig retires for good. (Sadly; I loved the G-Train in full flight!)
That leaves 5 spots for drafting/trading.
If Lyon is fair dinkum he'll make at least that many changes at seanon's end; possibly quite a few more.
Fiora
Gwilt
Gehrig
Dempster
Gardiner, C
Rix stays as the cheap spare ruckman. Even as a carbon rod player he at least jumps into a contest (unlike for example Ackland).
Schneider stays; he's a clever half forward whose only managed 6-7 games. Far too early to chop him; we actually do need a clever half forward.
Raph stays; he's got another year on contract, and does possess talent. He should get his last year and evaluate then.
Birss I've already commented on.
Fiora goes; had plenty of time, just doesn't do enough. Ditto Gwilt. Dempster was a steak knife in the Schneider deal, and doesn't show much IMO. Gardiner, C ditto.
Gehrig retires for good. (Sadly; I loved the G-Train in full flight!)
That leaves 5 spots for drafting/trading.
If Lyon is fair dinkum he'll make at least that many changes at seanon's end; possibly quite a few more.
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BAM! (shhhh)
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That is, identify players sitting on club lists with no great prospect of enhancing their team’s chances of winning a flag.
On pure statistics they may be able to justify playing from one week to the next, but the harsh reality is their time has almost come and all they are effectively doing is tempting the club to continue playing them in the hope they may continue to make the club competitive now.
Agree we've got a lot of players who fit this description... and so barring a big improvement in fortunes, guys that would be considered "cloggers", but disagree with some names chosen and left.
The cloggers would be guys who are as good as they're going to get, with no hope of improvement, and are either too old to help in the next run, or simply not central to the way the team plays.
So Scheider isn't, and Raph Clark isn't. They could be, but not till you've cleared things up a good deal...
Rix and Ferguson would have to lead the list of cloggers; on the AFL borderline there could be several as well... With Gehrig the obvious, and Fiora and Blake the perennial whipping boys, and depending on where you see the window, someone as high profile as a Milne or a Hudghton could be looked at in this light and traded.
In fact, by the definition he chooses, Robert Harvey's a clogger if we're writing the season off.
On pure statistics they may be able to justify playing from one week to the next, but the harsh reality is their time has almost come and all they are effectively doing is tempting the club to continue playing them in the hope they may continue to make the club competitive now.
Agree we've got a lot of players who fit this description... and so barring a big improvement in fortunes, guys that would be considered "cloggers", but disagree with some names chosen and left.
The cloggers would be guys who are as good as they're going to get, with no hope of improvement, and are either too old to help in the next run, or simply not central to the way the team plays.
So Scheider isn't, and Raph Clark isn't. They could be, but not till you've cleared things up a good deal...
Rix and Ferguson would have to lead the list of cloggers; on the AFL borderline there could be several as well... With Gehrig the obvious, and Fiora and Blake the perennial whipping boys, and depending on where you see the window, someone as high profile as a Milne or a Hudghton could be looked at in this light and traded.
In fact, by the definition he chooses, Robert Harvey's a clogger if we're writing the season off.
"Everything comes to he who hustles while he waits"
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spert
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Milne should be on top of the list..when the going gets tough..Milne is gone. Birss has shown enough and is handy near goal unlike the rest of our midfield.
You play blokes who show desire and put in...not wait for those who you expect are going to show some form based on their form of a couple of years ago.
Sunday's game against the Lions should have showed who should get the flick I reckon.
You play blokes who show desire and put in...not wait for those who you expect are going to show some form based on their form of a couple of years ago.
Sunday's game against the Lions should have showed who should get the flick I reckon.
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congorozides
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Re: Garry Lyon: List Cloggers
blake is a list clogger. just too mistake prone. proves that having a brain does count in footy.St.Walker wrote:http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/ ... and_dagger
WHO’S CLOGGING YOUR TEAM’S LIST?
ST KILDA
Adam Schneider
Fraser Gehrig
Aaron Fiora
Michael Rix
Raphael Clarke
king is a list clogger. so too birss and gwilt.
and dempster and ferguson are ever so close to being list cloggers.
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ausfatcat
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Re: Garry Lyon: List Cloggers
congorozides wrote:blake is a list clogger. just too mistake prone. proves that having a brain does count in footy.St.Walker wrote:http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/afl/ ... and_dagger
WHO’S CLOGGING YOUR TEAM’S LIST?
ST KILDA
Adam Schneider
Fraser Gehrig
Aaron Fiora
Michael Rix
Raphael Clarke
king is a list clogger. so too birss and gwilt.
and dempster and ferguson are ever so close to being list cloggers.
agree with both lists except for Adam Schneider still young and has a big upside.
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Sainternist
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ace
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List cloggers do have a purpose.
They keep a club competitive when there are injuries among the best 22.
In the case of Ross Lyon he was appointed to take St Kilda from a losing finals team to a premiership.
He desperately needs wins just to make the finals.
He needs the list cloggers in the hope of still making the finals.
The young kids won't do that for him.
When Ross Lyon finally admits to himself (and the club and supporters) that he is a failure, he will be able to accept a string of losses.
Only then can he send all the list cloggers to the VFL and promote the young and inexperienced kids from the VFL into the playing 22.
In so doing St Kilda will once again become a wooden spoon contender.
The premiership window will have closed and Ross Lyon will be out of job with a losy resume.
Note how Kevin Sheedy used list cloggers to keep Essendon a finals contender without hope of a premiership during his last 6 years, just to hang onto his job, but eventually the club aware of his behaviour pushed him out.
They keep a club competitive when there are injuries among the best 22.
In the case of Ross Lyon he was appointed to take St Kilda from a losing finals team to a premiership.
He desperately needs wins just to make the finals.
He needs the list cloggers in the hope of still making the finals.
The young kids won't do that for him.
When Ross Lyon finally admits to himself (and the club and supporters) that he is a failure, he will be able to accept a string of losses.
Only then can he send all the list cloggers to the VFL and promote the young and inexperienced kids from the VFL into the playing 22.
In so doing St Kilda will once again become a wooden spoon contender.
The premiership window will have closed and Ross Lyon will be out of job with a losy resume.
Note how Kevin Sheedy used list cloggers to keep Essendon a finals contender without hope of a premiership during his last 6 years, just to hang onto his job, but eventually the club aware of his behaviour pushed him out.
Last edited by ace on Tue 27 May 2008 9:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
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evertonfc
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See, when I look at Steven King and Michael Gardiner, I don't think of them as list cloggers because I do honestly believe they serve an important role - keeping our ruck competitive whilst we train up a satisfactory ruckman.
It's when they clog the position at the expense of a ruckman who is ready to play that they become cloggers. I'm more than happy with those guys - we gave up little to get them, they cost very little and are proving relatively compeititive.
I see the problem more as those keeping the likes of Geary, Eddy, Allen and Armitage out of the side. They appear to be ready to go, whilst McEvoy is perhaps a shade green to be rucking.
Likewise, you could - if you were an idiot - argue Schneider is clogging Jack Steven, but Steven is surely too green to be let loose on a full-time basis. Like McEvoy, I'd like to see him play 5-7 games, but installing them as full-timers should be reserved for the years to come.
Geary, Eddy (promote when fit enough), Allen and Armitage, however - I'd definitely be looking to start playing them every week.
We should now be looking beyond the likes of Birss, Fiora, Blake and C Jones to be giving this quartet a real go. Throw in Howard as well - isn't it time we found out about our 2006 second round pick?
We gain back X Clarke this week...now, why couldn't we field the below side?
ST KILDA
B: L.Fisher, Hudghton, Dempster
HB: Goddard, S.Fisher, Gram
C: Dal Santo, Ball, Montagna
HF: Schneider, Riewoldt, X Clarke
F: Milne, Koschitzke, Armitage
FOLL: King, Hayes, Harvey
I/C from: M.Gardiner, Geary, Howard, Allen
IN: Armitage, Allen, Howard, X Clarke
OUT: Birss, Jones, Blake, Fiora
Seriously, I know it won't happen because Birss and Jones played alright last week, but this way we could inject some youth and run into the side, as well as the mobility of Allen to help take some heat of Riewoldt and Koschitzke.
Howard is a bit of an outside selection, but christ - we already KNOW what Birss and Jones can give. Can't we find out what Howard is capable of giving?
It's when they clog the position at the expense of a ruckman who is ready to play that they become cloggers. I'm more than happy with those guys - we gave up little to get them, they cost very little and are proving relatively compeititive.
I see the problem more as those keeping the likes of Geary, Eddy, Allen and Armitage out of the side. They appear to be ready to go, whilst McEvoy is perhaps a shade green to be rucking.
Likewise, you could - if you were an idiot - argue Schneider is clogging Jack Steven, but Steven is surely too green to be let loose on a full-time basis. Like McEvoy, I'd like to see him play 5-7 games, but installing them as full-timers should be reserved for the years to come.
Geary, Eddy (promote when fit enough), Allen and Armitage, however - I'd definitely be looking to start playing them every week.
We should now be looking beyond the likes of Birss, Fiora, Blake and C Jones to be giving this quartet a real go. Throw in Howard as well - isn't it time we found out about our 2006 second round pick?
We gain back X Clarke this week...now, why couldn't we field the below side?
ST KILDA
B: L.Fisher, Hudghton, Dempster
HB: Goddard, S.Fisher, Gram
C: Dal Santo, Ball, Montagna
HF: Schneider, Riewoldt, X Clarke
F: Milne, Koschitzke, Armitage
FOLL: King, Hayes, Harvey
I/C from: M.Gardiner, Geary, Howard, Allen
IN: Armitage, Allen, Howard, X Clarke
OUT: Birss, Jones, Blake, Fiora
Seriously, I know it won't happen because Birss and Jones played alright last week, but this way we could inject some youth and run into the side, as well as the mobility of Allen to help take some heat of Riewoldt and Koschitzke.
Howard is a bit of an outside selection, but christ - we already KNOW what Birss and Jones can give. Can't we find out what Howard is capable of giving?
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