St Kilda List 2008

[bergholt]

Well, there are obviously serious problems with the footy club at the moment - we can't win games. Partly, this can be fixed by the coach and his tactics. The second part of the equation is list management. Some players are going to have to go, and more will be brought in.

So let's have a look at this list (with age at the start of next season and predicted games at that time) and see what we can salvage:

1 Jason Gram 186 87 25 72 MB

Keep. With a decent team around him will look good again as a running defender.

2 Steven King 201 104 30 208 R

Retire. He's unlikely to go on.

3 Xavier Clarke 182 78 25 110 M

Keep. He can escape injuries and be pretty good as the sixth midfielder.

5 Ben McEvoy 200 95 20 2 R

Keep. Untested.

6 Leigh Fisher 188 92 25 60 SB

Dump. Had his chances and even at his best was just scraping into the best 22. At the moment he's much worse than that.

7 Lenny Hayes 186 87 29 190 M

Keep. Getting old but the heart and soul of the team.

8 Max Hudghton 191 93 32 220 TB

Retire. Could play on, and I love him, but why would he stay for a rebuilding year or two?

9 Fraser Gehrig 195 104 33 245 TF

Retire. One season too many for the big fella.

10 Steven Baker 181 85 29 170 SB

Keep. Getting old but more than useful as a defender.

11 Leigh Montagna 178 78 25 95 M

Keep. I see him in the Luke Power mould - may never be a reliable matchwinner but provides spark outside.

12 Nick Riewoldt 193 96 26 154 TF

Keep. He'll win many more games for someone.

13 Adam Schneider 179 77 25 113 SF

Unsure. Has the rest of this year to prove he can contribute (playing him in the backline is unlikely to be the answer).

14 Luke Ball 184 83 25 123 M

Keep. Still not a matchwinner but steadily improving towards very good.

15 Michael Gardiner 199 103 30 144 R

Keep. Another solid pre-season and he could become a good player again.

16 Raphael Clarke 189 85 23 40 ?

Dump. What's his position? What are his useful attributes?

17 Aaron Fiora 186 77 28 142 M

Dump. He's 28 now, and still inconsistent and unreliable. There must be rookies out there who want his spot.

18 Brendon Goddard 191 92 24 112 MB

Keep. He'll be much better than he was, with a solid preseason or two.

19 Sam Gilbert 194 92 23 33 MB

Keep. Dropped away this year but plenty of improvement left.

20 David Armitage 183 84 21 14 M

Keep. Not coming through as fast as we'd like but showing signs he'll become a solid midfielder.

21 Matthew Ferguson 188 84 24 14 MB

Unsure. Has never really had a chance - play him for the rest of the year and find out if he's a back or a forward or neither.

22 Shane Birss 183 80 26 78 SB

Unsure. I'm not convinced he's a tagger but definitely too inconsistent as an outside player. Give him the rest of the season.

23 Justin Koschitzke 197 98 26 115 TF

Keep. Don't expect so much - sit him at FF and be happy with 3 goals a game.

24 Sean Dempster 192 88 25 70 MB

Unsure. Give him the rest of the season to prove he can stop a man and get some ball himself.

25 Sam Fisher 192 92 27 91 TB

Keep. Will remain stalwart in defence for some time yet.

26 Nick Dal Santo 186 86 25 141 M

Keep. Don't expect so much - he should win a Brownlow but won't. Call him the fifth midfielder and he's excellent.

27 Jason Blake 191 88 28 130 ?

Dump. I love JB but he's a nothing player, really. No position, no skills.

28 Charlie Gardiner 190 90 26 62 M

Dump. Unless he can really find a position in the remainder of the year, he's gone.

29 Michael Rix 198 101 28 28 R

Dump. Was never more than VFL quality.

30 Brad Howard 182 80 21 4 M

Unsure. Has never shown anything but is young - maybe another year on doubtful potential.

31 Matt Maguire 190 94 25 99 TB

Keep. He'll be good again one day. Probably. Hopefully.

32 Andrew McQualter 179 74 23 30 M

Dump. He's just not gonna be a player - he's had five years.

33 James Gwilt 188 92 23 18 ?

Dump. If you can't find somewhere to play him in the remainder of this year then he's never gonna make it.

34 Jack Steven 180 78 19 1 M

Keep. Untried.

35 Robert Harvey 181 86 38 380 M

Retire. There's no way he'll play on for another year of rebuilding.

36 Jarryd Allen 193 90 21 5 TF

Keep. Untried.

37 Eljay Connors 181 70 19 0 SF

Keep. Untried.

38 Clint Jones 183 85 25 15 M

Unsure. His disposal's never gonna improve much but he's game. We should know one way or the other by the end of the year - he'll be 25 by next season.

39 Luke Van Rheenen 201 98 21 0 R

Keep. Untried.

40 Robert Eddy 182 83 21 4 M

Keep. Untried.

41 Glenn Chivers 188 80 20 0 M

Keep. Untried.

42 Jarryn Geary 183 80 21 10 M

Keep. Hasn't looked amazing but is still very young.

43 Jayden Attard 187 85 23 30 SB

Keep. Deserves another season to make up for the knee - but needs to show something.

44 Stephen Milne 178 82 29 160 SF

Keep. He kicks goals. Small forward remains an important position and he's improved every year since he came to the Saints.

45 Luke Miles 186 78 22 0 MB

Keep. Untried.

46 Khan Haretuku 198 98 19 0 R

Keep. Untried.

[bergholt]

So, to summarise.

Retirements, for their own sake (4):

King
Hudghton
Gehrig
Harvey

Gone, most likely (8):

Fisher, L
Clarke, R
Fiora
Blake
Gardiner, C
Rix
McQualter
Gwilt

(These have the benefit of simplifying our surnames - then there's only one Fisher and Clarke and Gardiner!)

Make or Break (6):

Schneider
Ferguson
Birss
Dempster
Howard
Jones

But, as I'm sure many will point out, it's very hard to replace 12 players, let alone 18. So some will have to stay. Any on those lists who can get a trade should go - but that's unlikely.

So plenty of these players will still be here next year. This is the legacy of bad trading - six of those players have been on other clubs' lists before, and yet we still picked them up. When does that ever work?

For the ones that we can't get rid of - REMEMBER THEIR PLACE. They're at the bottom of the list. Here's a handy guide:

If you're tempted to pick Fiora - pick Eddy.
If you're tempted to pick Rix - pick McEvoy.
If you're tempted to pick R Clarke - pick Allen.
If you're tempted to pick C Gardiner - pick Ferguson.

etc.

This has been St Kilda's real failing for years. If you don't play the kids, you never find out about them, and they stagnate.

[Iceman234]

Excellent post.

Great summation of where our list is at.

And I enjoyed the "If you're tempted to" at the bottom.

Well constructed post and spot on.

[aussiejones]

Got to agree ......we certainly need to try something....

[plugger66]

Not bad but 12 will not go. Not sure who will but there is still 13 weeks to go. 8 at the most to go plus at least 2-3 rookies.

[congorozides]

Excellent post.

Great summation of where our list is at.

And I enjoyed the "If you're tempted to" at the bottom.

Well constructed post and spot on.

hear hear. loved it.

[Iceman234]

My only issue is with #35.

I know he will retire but the way he is travelling right now, there is no reason why he should.

[saintly]

i wish we had this post at the end of last year or the beginning of this year. we should have rebuilt beginning this year. oh well. 13 weeks for players to prove themselves. or else out!

move on and move up saints

[mad saint guy]

Agree with most of it, but a few I'm not sold on

2 Steven King 201 104 30 208 R

Retire. He's unlikely to go on.

I would be very surprised if he retired. He'd still be getting plenty of money and doesn't have to do much to keep his spot.

6 Leigh Fisher 188 92 25 60 SB

Dump. Had his chances and even at his best was just scraping into the best 22. At the moment he's much worse than that.

At his best (2006) he was in our top 15 players. He hasn't been great this year, but is better than Blake, Raph or Dempster.

8 Max Hudghton 191 93 32 220 TB

Retire. Could play on, and I love him, but why would he stay for a rebuilding year or two?

We do need to rebuild, but that doesn't mean you have to get rid of every decent older player on the list. We've got absolutely no one to take his spot, so it isn't like he's holding young players back.

16 Raphael Clarke 189 85 23 40 ?

Dump. What's his position? What are his useful attributes?

He's a medium defender who reads the play well, is quite athletic and has good skills. He does need to lift soon if he's to keep his spot, but he should be given a chance.

38 Clint Jones 183 85 25 15 M

Unsure. His disposal's never gonna improve much but he's game. We should know one way or the other by the end of the year - he'll be 25 by next season.

I don't think he could possibly do any more to prove that he's not up to AFL level. Dump.

39 Luke Van Rheenen 201 98 21 0 R

Keep. Untried.

To keep him we need to elevate him onto the senior list (or delist him and re draft him as a rookie). He was always a long shot and the odds of him making it were always bad. LVR didn't get in the best at any level last year, doesn't have any outstanding attributes and has now copped a LTI. Dump.

41 Glenn Chivers 188 80 20 0 M

Keep. Untried.

Needs to show some form in the VFL if he is to be kept, because he certainly didn't show anything in the NAB Cup (3 games for 0 possessions).

43 Jayden Attard 187 85 23 30 SB

Keep. Deserves another season to make up for the knee - but needs to show something.

Dump. He's a nothing player and after the knee reco he will have lost his only real strength (pace).

46 Khan Haretuku 198 98 19 0 R

Keep. Untried.

Needs to show something. Was brought onto the list because he didn't take a spot from anyone else. Could easily make way for another scholarship kid.

[saintsRrising]

38 Clint Jones 183 85 25 15 M

Unsure. His disposal's never gonna improve much but he's game. We should know one way or the other by the end of the year - he'll be 25 by next season.

I don't think he could possibly do any more to prove that he's not up to AFL level. Dump.

.

When you rubbished CJ yesterday you stated that you had not seen the Lions match. Have you watched it yet???

CJ was way ahead of a lot of other players in this match.

He was a one of a very few that actually put pressure on the Lions. Apart fro his 4 tackles he often ran and harried and forced the Lions players to kick under pressure again and again. Not many other Saints players can state that.

Lets see how he goes for the remainder of year first shall we????



King I would keep.

Max I would too... we hardly havea key defender at present of any age.

[Dan Warna]

Just on Luke Ball, he and lenny hayes damn nearly dragged St Kilda over the line against Collingwood.

He is a matchwinner.

He just needs someone else to stand up with him.

FFS

as for gwilt, he is not a defender, never will be a defender, failure of two coaches to turn him into a defender.

pretty much the same with raphael clarke playing as a defender, should be on the wing.

[Red]

Dan you are an idiot. Match winner means winning a match. Not nearly.

Ball won't, can't and never will. I admire the guy but would definitely put

him on the trade table to see what you can get.

[SainterX]

Just out of curiousity, if Dean Cox decided he wanted to leave West Coast as Juddy did, what would we have to give up to get him?

[Iceman234]

Dan you are an idiot. Match winner means winning a match. Not nearly.

Ball won't, can't and never will. I admire the guy but would definitely put

him on the trade table to see what you can get.

Clearly outvoted above and beyond many geese here by making this the worst post ever.

Worst post by a country mile.

Put Bally on the trade table.

FAIR DINKUM.

[Dan Warna]

Dan you are an idiot. Match winner means winning a match. Not nearly.

Ball won't, can't and never will. I admire the guy but would definitely put

him on the trade table to see what you can get.

No player can win a game on their own, they need support.

trade away all our players and get what? more 30 year old has beens?

Luke Ball is a quality individual, a quality player, and will be far better than anything Ross Lyon can entice to the club.

more schneiders? dumpsters? charlie Gardiners?

give us a decent game plan, and some support and Ball will be the engine room player.

in a team crying out for hardness you want to trade one of the hardest players we've got?

sheer stupidity.

[Red]

Dan you are obviously Balls greatest fan but if you think that a player who

can't run or kick over a jam tin is a star you really need another look.

Remember the final against Adelaide where we 5 goals down in the first

quarter. 1 man pulled us over the line with his work effort. He brought

players in top the game with his effort. Ball will never be able to do that.

[Dan Warna]

Dan you are obviously Balls greatest fan but if you think that a player who

can't run or kick over a jam tin is a star you really need another look.

Remember the final against Adelaide where we 5 goals down in the first

quarter. 1 man pulled us over the line with his work effort. He brought

players in top the game with his effort. Ball will never be able to do that.

Ball is an inside midfielders who wins games by bringing others into it and creating turnovers with his tackling and pressure.

in a side which LACKS intensity you want to trade one of teh VERY few players who have intensity?

no doubt a few more schnieders and charlie gardiners and decripit doc clarke's will see us through.

[Red]

Ball was one of the main reasons we lost yesterday with his turnovers and I

haven't seen him bring anybody into games this year. His tackling has being

first class but his decision making is second rate.

[Dan Warna]

Ball was one of the main reasons we lost yesterday with his turnovers and I

haven't seen him bring anybody into games this year. His tackling has being

first class but his decision making is second rate.

a couple of turn overs, but by and large how much of that is because his team mates aren't where they are supposed to be?

his decision making normally is very good.

in fact he's one of the very few players who have been good when not injured.

[Iceman234]

Red if you are a Saints fan, you are the worst I've seen on here.

[Red]

1 possession in 2 didn't hit a target. You can't blame his team mates for

that. The opposition like him to have the ball as we go inside fifty because

he has no penetration. Not his fault that injury has done this to him but

every time he kicks the ball I squirm. If he played a little more like Harvey

with those 25 - 35 m chips for the forwards to lead onto we maybe better

off. I may judge him harshly but that is what happens when your a better

player in your second season than your 6th.

[bergholt]

Re: Retirements (Harvs, Max, King).

I'd keep any of those who wanted to stay, especially the first two who can be veteran listed. But I think it's fairly likely it will be a rebuilding year, after missing or just scraping into finals. While they'd be more than handy in mentoring roles, it's unlikely they're gonna want to force themselves through another year of up-and-down performance. Banger will be 38! He could almost play with Connor if he keeps on for a couple more years!

But Maxy might play on and happy to have him.

Re: Bally.

I love the guy, but he's not quite the player he once looked like he might be. (Not on his lonesome there, though. Dal. Kossie. X. Roo, even. BJ, I still have hope for.) He keeps doing the hard things - tackles, clearances, blocks - but he's not able to run hard enough to overlap and get the ball outside. His kicking's not horrible but not superlative. And the goals don't come quite enough, either.

But let's not be trading him. That's the sort of move that tears the heart out of a football club.

[brown-coat]

He is a matchwinner.

No player can win a game on their own, they need support.

Hmm.

Ball, huge heart great tackling. Shithouse skills and terrible decision maker.

Not a matchwinner.

[Sobraz]

You summary is spot on bergholt...

The only ones i may change is Harvey (we seriously need him next year, easily good enough to play on, probs top 3 b&f this year, same goes with Max) and Raph... I'd give him 1 more (injury free hopefully) year and prey he takes his chance.. same goes with L. Fisher maybe... Maybe...

otherwise, all the delistings and retirements are spot on...
Fiora, Blake, Gardiner, C Rix, McQualter, Gwilt, G Train and King all to go asap...

[bergholt]

Time to update this a little.

There's a few players on their last chance in this game and the next two rounds, and then we'll know exactly who should stay and who should go.

This, I reckon, is why Lyon's picking from the dregs. We're not gonna win a flag this year. May as well last-chance some mediocre players and see which of them are closest to putting their hand up for a spot on the list next year.

All of these players, most of whom are in that squad, could get the chop, and have to perform in the next few weeks:

Birss
- 6 games, 13.8 disp = 8.3 kicks + 5.5 handballs, 5.8 marks, 1.3 goals, 0.5 assists, 3.0 tackles, 3.0 inside 50s

Hasn't been horrible and will almost certainly get one more chance - there are many worse than him. Gets plenty of tackles, which Lyon likes.

Clarke, R
- 5g, 13.0d = 6.6k+6.4h, 4.6m, 0g, 0.2a, 2.2t, 1.0i

35 games in 5 seasons isn't many for a pretty highly-rated draft pick - and not many good ones. I'm happy for him to move on. Trade to Essendon? Shame Sheeds is gone.

Dempster
- 16g, 12.7d = 7.5k+5.2h, 4.1m, 0.2g, 0.2a, 3.1t, 1.8i

Has been fairly anonymous but has kept his spot, so it's unlikely Ross will dump him. Plenty of room for improvement, but he'll never be a star.

Eddy
- 7g, 11.4d = 6.7k+4.7h, 4.3m, 0.1g, 0.1a, 3.3t, 1.7i

Only a kid and has exceeded expectations, so he'll get another year. Ranked 6th for tackles, so Ross probably loves him.

Ferguson
- 2g, 6.0d = 5.5k+0.5h, 5.0m, 0g, 0.5a, 1.5t, 0.5i

Gone, unless something magical happens, which is unfortunate because he's just started showing something (at almost 24, mind you).

Fiora
- 9g, 11.7d = 6.8k+4.9h, 4.2m, 0.2g, 0.2a, 1.6t, 1.4i

Not the worst, which is unfortunate as if he's proved anything in 10 years on AFL lists it's that he's not quite good enough. Probably gone - otherwise next year fer sure.

Fisher, L
- 9g, 8.1d = 3.9k+4.2h, 2.9m, 0.1g, 0.3a, 2.1t, 1.2i

Really disappointing year for him. If he can't get along with the coach then we should trade him to somewhere he can play, because he's gone a long way backwards for us.

Gardiner, C
- 8g, 12.0d = 8.0k+4.0h, 5.0m, 0.9g, 0.2a, 2.0t, 1.9i

Not good enough, but probably gets another year, as despite having shown nothing, he's occasionally shown something.

Gwilt
- 7g, 13.1d = 7.0k+6.1h, 4.0m, 0.3g, 0.3a, 1.9t, 1.6i

Probably not good enough, but every now and then shows a little. I just don't know what his position is. Gone, I'd suggest.

Howard
- 0g

Gone. One that didn't make it.

McQualter
- 8g, 12.4d = 6.4k+6.0h, 3.1m, 0.1g, 0.4a, 3.8t, 1.2i

I like him more since he came off the rookie list. Seems to be a Lyon project player, and plenty of tackles ensures that he'll be around next year. I'm still quite dubious, though.

Rix
- 1g, 4.0d = 1.0k+3.0h, 0m, 0g, 0a, 4.0t, 0i

Not AFL standard, though he is extremely good looking. Should go away and start up a school for kids who can't read good.


Summary:

Out: Harvey, Gehrig, Howard, Rix, Ferguson, L Fisher
Almost gone: R Clarke, Fiora, Gwilt

If we get rid of seven of these nine, I'll be reasonably happy.