The REAL issue with our current failure in list development

[kaos theory]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but IMO our problems with the lack of new talent emerging on our list stem from years of neglect (04, 05, 06 & 07) in key areas of the football dept.

Through this period, we ran our footy department based off a 90s club mentality. Yes, there were some ok things, but we were not using a modern, world class approach,like some other teams had been using. The dept was poorly funded (except for the head coach's inflatrd salary - but thats another story...)

These areas of failure were:

1. Recuiting

One old guy with a car is not the way to find & secure hidden talent across the nation. Sure, beverage has been a great servant to the club, but you cannot expect any continued successes when competing with the big interstate clubs which have a number of specialists using more sophisticated methods to find and rate talent.

For years we had been left with the simple hit & miss hunches of one guy. The top picks are easy, the later picks, and who you put on the rookie list is where the extra effort & science is requird. To further compound the probelm, we had one of the lowest number of rookie listed players on our list through the years 04 to 06.

We have begun to address this area in 80, but the results won't come overnight.

2. Player development

Once a player is on the list, we have performed very poorly in developing the players relative to the top clubs. For example, when collingwood take in a new player, they go through a thorough assessment to identify the players strenghts & weaknesses and then develop a structured program to fully develop the player. The players are the club's assets, and you neglect their development at your peril.

Eddie once said that at collingwood they plan to have a coach for each player, he was half joking, but there was some seriousness to his jibe.

Think about it - every facet of a young player is disected and programs put in place to improve it, and these programs are constantly monitored and adjusted. E.g the player is a little weak on his left side with handball, or decision-making in certain situations is weak, etc...

We all look at collingwood, and don't think that much of the raw talent of the players they get on their list, yet somehow each year they keep improving and showing abilities we thought they didn't have....

This again is an area we did SFA in...we laggd baddly, we were old school in our thinking. We are now working on it, but it will take some time to get the benefits.

3. Player management

Here I'm thinking mainly about managing injuries. Its critical that a club has the best procedures in place to ensure that a) a player is less likely to get injuried and b). if he gets injuried, have the right program in place so that his time out of the game is a little as possible.

This again is an area, relative to other clubs, we were pathetic, especially through 2000 to 2007. We all know our record with injuries though 04 & 05, and what that might have costs us......

We are now getting better at injury management, finally....

So when you complain about our list development, IMO, you need to look at what has happend at our club behind the sences over the last 5 years or so, not just last years recuits.

I am happy that the new administration got elected on this very platform of improving the footy department, becuase it is from there where all our success & failures will come.

[Otiman]

The point is that we (as a club) have acknowledged these areas as weak, and have put significant resources into improving.

It will be some time before we see the fruits of these seeds.

e.g. Frankston in 2 years, '07 draftees coming on late due to being underage, and so on.

[JeffDunne]

Did someone miss the board challenge last year?

[bobmurray]

One old guy with a car is not the way to find & secure hidden talent across the nation. Sure, beverage has been a great servant to the club, but you cannot expect any continued successes when competing with the big interstate clubs which have a number of specialists using more sophisticated methods to find and rate talent.

For years we had been left with the simple hit & miss hunches of one guy. The top picks are easy, the later picks, and who you put on the rookie list is where the extra effort & science is requird. To further compound the probelm, we had one of the lowest number of rookie listed players on our list through the years 04 to 06.

Very good points raised here kaos.Bevo kind of lost the plot when he became determined to pluck a smokie out of his grab bag that would develop into a star player....didn't happen......

Just when the club was starting to improve it's recruiting setup the AFL starts up 2 new teams that will make it harder for clubs to find the talented players they need in the National Drafts post 2008.

[SainterX]

The issue of recruiting is an odd one.

How many youngsters did Brisbane and Port Adelaide recruit when going for their premierships?
We put our faith in the players we had then, and took a shot at the premiership very honorably in 04 and 05.
Only rebuilding teams go out of their way to recruit young players, and we were definitely not doing that.
Can't have things both ways.

[kaos theory]

The issue of recruiting is an odd one.

How many youngsters did Brisbane and Port Adelaide recruit when going for their premierships?
We put our faith in the players we had then, and took a shot at the premiership very honorably in 04 and 05.
Only rebuilding teams go out of their way to recruit young players, and we were definitely not doing that.
Can't have things both ways

the lions or port never started a seaon thinking, "ok this year we will not try to win a flag, and spend all our games trying young players."

Clubs like port, lions and the crows have blooded many players over the last 3 to 4 years & they have not gone down to the bottom for years on end to get high draft picks to find players...

[rexy]

The opening post is full of excellent points, does not change the fact that we have not had a look at any of our first year players yet, guys like Fergusson and Gwilt have been retained on the list without a fair and reasonable opportunity to prove themselves in the last year and 8 rounds or that there seems to be a revolving door policy of the same ins and outs.

I am not saying that this is all RLs fault, only that he is the only one who can change it!

[saintsRrising]

Did someone miss the board challenge last year?

No.....though some may have missed that the old guy in the car had already passed the baton onto another before the Board challenge, though remains as a consultant, and that resources in this area had at last started to be ramped up.

The additional WA resources deployed before the challenge no doubt played a part in selecting CJ and Miles as rookies too.

So last years draft was the start of a new recruiting era for the Saints...one based less on gut feel and with more science and rigour.

Hopefully FF is ramping things up even further.

Back to recruiting. Last year with the new guy at the helm I think we will be looking back at our third round pick in Steven as an inspired and clever pick.

Taken bottom age I think we have gained a quality player at a cheap price.
Despite all the flak on the forum at present about RL stuffing recruiting full of recycled players, last years draft actually had very good long term provisions in it. Steven and Eljay (admitedlya much higher and riskier pick..) were both long term picks. Schoolboys where this year is just a bonus development year....and two picks sacrificing the present for a better future.

McEvoy too was long term..for though older he is ruckman who will take longer to bloom.



Our drafting has also changed in that it is now more systematic in addressing our needs.

I await eaxmaing our next batch of draft picks with some interest.

[To the top]

Yes Kaos Theory.

But the PREVIOUS Board moved by firstly dictating to the previous Football Department guru that he embrace a structure consistent with the structures being employed by our competitors.

Then, when he did not comply, they sacked him.

Mind you, the St Kilda "model" which they ultimately moved to distance themselves from also accomodated the needs of a club racked by debt, and feverishly working to eradicate that debt to ensure its long term survival.

So, first things first was the culture. Understandably.

Ultimately though Football Clubs are about winning - and to win you do not back favourites, you back winners.

And you turn and you turn and you turn until you find the calibre of player you want - and who can deliver in a successful team.

That is the task of the Football Department.

And the Football Department are appointed by the Board.

It is my view that the Football Department Guru was seduced by the upper echelons of his list - and had a destructive "top up" policy which did not put pressure on his upper echelon.

The jury is still well and truly out on the continuation of the "top up" policy by the current Administration (and would the previous Administration have continued with the "top up" policy post the dismissal of the Football Department Guru?) acknowledging that the recruiting of M. Gardiner and King was essential.

So we are paying a price, and seem destined to pay a price for a little while yet.

Post 2008 season directives will be of interest.

[Shaggy]

I agree with alot of Kaos here (apart from the anti GT bias).

My only points are:

Recruiting:

JB is on record to complain about the lack of resources he had back in 2002. He did the job despite the lack of money to support him. Remarkable job.

Player development:

I think we have done very well at developing players once they have been on the list.

My main problem is we never had enough on the list under GT.

We now have many more up and comers under RL but he won't give them a game (alla Roos - which seems to work for Sydney but they are a very weird club).

Player Management (Injuries):

Personally I think it has more to do with Telstra. We snapped up the top guru's of their time during GT and post.

[saintsRrising]

We now have many more up and comers under RL but he won't give them a game

Of the new guys and rookies...

Attard played most of a season

Geary and CJ both have been tried...

Armo played last year..found to not be fit enough....but is now getting regular games.

Only 8 games this year......so I do not fond it odd that McEvoy has not played...nor the bottom aged Steven.

Alllen I suspect will be given a try soon..

Howard was given a taste last year in front of the disappointing and older Raymond.


Raph now that he was back fully fit has been given every chance to shine.....and may now lose his place to the next player in the queue....


Ferg.....has now been given some games up forward at Casey to see if he can carve a niche out there. No such forward opportunity was given in previous years.

[Winmar7Fan]

I want to lay down and finish on the bottom again for a couple of seasons and do it properly.

( Worked well for us last time )

[plugger66]

I want to lay down and finish on the bottom again for a couple of seasons and do it properly.

Worked well for us last time

Not well enough.

[Winmar7Fan]

I want to lay down and finish on the bottom again for a couple of seasons and do it properly.

Worked well for us last time

Not well enough.

Maybe 3 then . We've got plenty of time we're not going anywhere

[Shaggy]

We now have many more up and comers under RL but he won't give them a game

Of the new guys and rookies...

Attard played most of a season

Geary and CJ both have been tried...

Armo played last year..found to not be fit enough....but is now getting regular games.

Only 8 games this year......so I do not fond it odd that McEvoy has not played...nor the bottom aged Steven.

Alllen I suspect will be given a try soon..

Howard was given a taste last year in front of the disappointing and older Raymond.

Raph now that he was back fully fit has been given every chance to shine.....and may now lose his place to the next player in the queue....


Ferg.....has now been given some games up forward at Casey to see if he can carve a niche out there. No such forward opportunity was given in previous years.

Mini in his first year got 7 games which also happened to be a finals year. Armo got 3 and 2 only because we had no options. Gwilt was taken into the seniors from Casey reserves which also happened to be a finals year. Watts was given his first game with the Saints before injury. Brooks last game of season for Casey dominated and was promoted despite the Saints being on a winning spree at the time and one match before the finals.

The biggest difference between RL and GT is that GT did not treat Casey form with distain. If the kids played well he promoted them (mind you half failed thereafter .... but I agree with the principle to promote the kids when they are at their most confident).

[congorozides]

Good post Kaos. I agree 100% with you

[congorozides]

Player development:[/b]

I think we have done very well at developing players once they have been on the list.

My main problem is we never had enough on the list under GT.

We now have many more up and comers under RL but he won't give them a game (alla Roos - which seems to work for Sydney but they are a very weird club).

we have not developed a player since BJ, Sam FIsher and maybe Gilbert. Thats an average of 1 per year. Not good enough when compared with other clubs. You need to average 2 per year.

[rodgerfox]

Has anyone noticed though, that according to the coach and players, we haven't been able to play to our game plan for more than 2.5 quarters this year?

And that in spite of that, and in spite of our better players being out of form or out injured, we are 4-4.

[spert]

Interesting points raised.. it is a mystery as to why the supposed game plan is not happening, and why the coach is scratching his head about this -maybe it's not a mystery. If it was a business, then managers would be sacking staff who don't perform -or executives would be sacking the managers. Is there communication issues with RL and the players? Otherwise, I think RL has a good handle on young player development -better than GT did I suspect. Unfortunately this club has had a history of getting stop-gap players, or rejects from other clubs, and not persisting with player development and youth. Lets hope this year we see the tide turn.

[Saintgaz]

I find it interesting watching Geelong this year. They're playing Gamble and Taylor, both young kids, whilst being the reigning premiers.
We haven't done as well at getting young kids into the team and backing them fully.

[congorozides]

Has anyone noticed though, that according to the coach and players, we haven't been able to play to our game plan for more than 2.5 quarters this year?

And that in spite of that, and in spite of our better players being out of form or out injured, we are 4-4.

we have too many duds. forget our top 8 players. theyw ill always be good.

we cant do the game plan because our bottom 6 players every week are muppets.

you need 22 players.

[rodgerfox]

Has anyone noticed though, that according to the coach and players, we haven't been able to play to our game plan for more than 2.5 quarters this year?

And that in spite of that, and in spite of our better players being out of form or out injured, we are 4-4.

we have too many duds. forget our top 8 players. theyw ill always be good.

we cant do the game plan because our bottom 6 players every week are muppets.

you need 22 players.

But last week we were without Baker, X, Roo and Maguire.

Goose won't be back, but those 3 back in would bring us down to only 3 muppets.

Most teams have 3 muppets at least.

[Teflon]

I find it interesting watching Geelong this year. They're playing Gamble and Taylor, both young kids, whilst being the reigning premiers.
We haven't done as well at getting young kids into the team and backing them fully.

Thats a very good point and something that I noticed also.

At our "peak" when we smashing sides in 04 and parts of 05 with the likes and experience of Peckett and Powell running round......did we really attempt to maintain an approach that exposed developing younger players to a succesfull team environment?

or did we just continue with name players....

I am impressed the way Geelong have used the luxury of their position to consistently introduce younger, developing players into the side.

[Otiman]

I want to lay down and finish on the bottom again for a couple of seasons and do it properly.

Worked well for us last time

Not well enough.

Maybe 3 then . We've got plenty of time we're not going anywhere

Worst possible time to be bottoming out with the gold coast and sydney teams coming into play soon.

[To the top]

There are no second prizes in sport.

Consequently, even if you win a premiership, it is beholden on the Administration to improve the team - because those who endured a wasted year whilst you were winning a premiership will improve.

So the only way you stay ahead of the pack is to improve, and by at least 20% which translates to a 4 player improvement.

And that is for the premiership team.

As I have said before, it is not about favourite players, it is about a winning team.

So, given Geelong improve by 20% (ie they introduce 2 players who are better than players who played in their premiership team, plus 2 others show significant improvement), what do St Kilda, as an also-ran behind Geelong, need to improve by?

I would suggest that St Kilda need to improve by 40%, or the equivilant of 8 players.

We have M. Gardiner and King.

But what or who comes after that?

Ball is improved significantly, Goddard has resumed.

But we have lost Gehrig's impact and others have not improved their output and, arguably, have gone backwards.

The team stagnates.

I just think, from my experience elsewhere, that St Kilda are not critical enough - and possibly because the Administration (and by their direction, the Football Department) are just not hard nosed enough in setting the business plan.

And it is a business plan, with the acid on all to lift performance and then to maintain and build again. From the Board down.

Because we need a more than 40% improvement to put ourselves back into contention - and that is for 2008!

You turn and you turn and you turn. Looking for perfection. You trade, you observe and you you draft from traditional Under Age competitions Australia wide and you absolutely scour, absolutely scour, for Rookies.

You use every place on your list.

And you never stop.

Because when you stop the others go past you.

St Kilda has not had such a business plan.