What do you think about Gram's statement

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tweedaletomanning
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Post: # 570251Post tweedaletomanning »

congorozides wrote:
Cairnsman wrote:I've wondered recently how much of the external expectation placed on the club and players hinders their performances, in particular how much of it hinders them above the shoulders. I mean the club is improving itself in a couple of areas, in particular with administration and injury management.

It's just now a matter of getting the players to string games together to gain cohesiveness. Have a look at the number of new players in the side. They make up a significant percentage of the team this year and surely they should be given time to get used to their new team mates as well as their new game plan.

Look at last year as a reference point. It took last years crop of players till the second half of the year to get into the game plan and then we one 7 of the last 11 games.

Cohesiveness follows stability. Gram has got a point. The core group is still young enough.
age is not relevant.

we cant win a flag with 6-8 duds going out there week in week out. year in year out.
100% correct...If age was relevant then Freo are a dead set shoe in for the flag this year.... :roll:


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barks4eva
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Post: # 570253Post barks4eva »

congorozides wrote:
we cant win a flag with 6-8 duds going out there week in week out. year in year out.
Exactly, agree 100% :wink:


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Cairnsman
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Post: # 570295Post Cairnsman »

SENsaintsational wrote:I actually paid more attention to Mike Sheahan's article today on the downfall of Essendon. Need to learn lessons from other's mistakes.

You can always plot the downfall of clubs when they start topping up with recycled players. Look at that Essendon list.

Recycled players are short term fixes. In my view, we have too many on our list that are in the short term fix category. Some have upsides, but not all.

Current (not wanted by their previous club)
C Gardiner
M Gardiner
A Schneider
S Dempster
S King
J Attard
J Gram
F Gehrig (different situation granted)
M Rix
S Birss
A Fiora

Most of those have been picked up in the last 4 years

Previous (come and gone)
F Watts
B Brooks
B Guerra
C Ackland
T Knobel
M McGough


To me, this influx of recycled players can only mean two things. Instant success or down you go quick smart.
If you want an example of instant success then Sydney is it. Robert Walls wrote an article on Real Footy today called 'Second-hand Swans give first-class value'

It counters Mike Sheahan's point.


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SENsei
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Post: # 570342Post SENsei »

Thanks for the heads up on the other article by Walls. Just read it now.

I think Sydney with their recycled players are the stand out and stand alone, personally, as there are many other examples of clubs coming unstuck with the same philosophy in recent years.

Nth Melb - Hay, Rawlings, Green
Richmond - Kingsley, Hudson, Houlihan, Knobel, Blumfield
Adelaide - Carey, Burns
Fremantle - M Johnson, Solomon, Tarrant, Bradley
Essendon - Michael, Camporeale, Murphy, Allan, Heffernan
Melbourne - Pickett, Heffernan,
Carlton - Harford, Bowyer, McGrath

But granted, there are success stories in James Clement, the Sydney boys, Brodie Holland, Paul Medhurst, Heath Scotland, Jason Gram, Jason Akermanis, etc.

It's not a perfect science, but it seems more likelier than not that recycling is only a bandaid solution.


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rodgerfox
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Post: # 570348Post rodgerfox »

SENsaintsational wrote:Thanks for the heads up on the other article by Walls. Just read it now.

I think Sydney with their recycled players are the stand out and stand alone, personally, as there are many other examples of clubs coming unstuck with the same philosophy in recent years.

Nth Melb - Hay, Rawlings, Green
Richmond - Kingsley, Hudson, Houlihan, Knobel, Blumfield
Adelaide - Carey, Burns
Fremantle - M Johnson, Solomon, Tarrant, Bradley
Essendon - Michael, Camporeale, Murphy, Allan, Heffernan
Melbourne - Pickett, Heffernan,
Carlton - Harford, Bowyer, McGrath

But granted, there are success stories in James Clement, the Sydney boys, Brodie Holland, Paul Medhurst, Heath Scotland, Jason Gram, Jason Akermanis, etc.

It's not a perfect science, but it seems more likelier than not that recycling is only a bandaid solution.
At what point is someone a 'recycled' player?

Is it picking up a required player from another club? Or picking up a reject?


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Post: # 570352Post Cairnsman »

SENsaintsational wrote:Thanks for the heads up on the other article by Walls. Just read it now.

I think Sydney with their recycled players are the stand out and stand alone, personally, as there are many other examples of clubs coming unstuck with the same philosophy in recent years.

Nth Melb - Hay, Rawlings, Green
Richmond - Kingsley, Hudson, Houlihan, Knobel, Blumfield
Adelaide - Carey, Burns
Fremantle - M Johnson, Solomon, Tarrant, Bradley
Essendon - Michael, Camporeale, Murphy, Allan, Heffernan
Melbourne - Pickett, Heffernan,
Carlton - Harford, Bowyer, McGrath

But granted, there are success stories in James Clement, the Sydney boys, Brodie Holland, Paul Medhurst, Heath Scotland, Jason Gram, Jason Akermanis, etc.

It's not a perfect science, but it seems more likelier than not that recycling is only a bandaid solution.
And those that stick
Brad Ottens, Cam Mooney at Geelong
David Rodan at Port


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saintsRrising
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Post: # 570360Post saintsRrising »

How many Premiership Teams did not have at least one recycled player in them??

Cats had some
Swans did.
WCE did
PA did.
Lions had several.

But yes it is a concern that we have so many exes from other clubs at the Saints.

Does this show lack of faith in our ability to have spotted young talent in the past????


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rodgerfox
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Post: # 570363Post rodgerfox »

saintsRrising wrote:
Does this show lack of faith in our ability to have spotted young talent in the past????
Or a confidence in the core talent we have already?


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SENsei
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Post: # 570373Post SENsei »

rodgerfox wrote:
SENsaintsational wrote:Thanks for the heads up on the other article by Walls. Just read it now.

I think Sydney with their recycled players are the stand out and stand alone, personally, as there are many other examples of clubs coming unstuck with the same philosophy in recent years.

Nth Melb - Hay, Rawlings, Green
Richmond - Kingsley, Hudson, Houlihan, Knobel, Blumfield
Adelaide - Carey, Burns
Fremantle - M Johnson, Solomon, Tarrant, Bradley
Essendon - Michael, Camporeale, Murphy, Allan, Heffernan
Melbourne - Pickett, Heffernan,
Carlton - Harford, Bowyer, McGrath

But granted, there are success stories in James Clement, the Sydney boys, Brodie Holland, Paul Medhurst, Heath Scotland, Jason Gram, Jason Akermanis, etc.

It's not a perfect science, but it seems more likelier than not that recycling is only a bandaid solution.
At what point is someone a 'recycled' player?

Is it picking up a required player from another club? Or picking up a reject?
My feeling is that a recycled player is one that was not wanted by their original club that the new club picked up in the draft or in the case of King & C Gardiner, a bargain basement pick.

Judd is not a recycled player, but Cousins will be.

Perfect example is Rodan at Port who has done good (thanks Cairnsman). Mahoney was another at Port who played in a premiership.

It would be interesting to make a list of the successes and the misses and see which list is bigger!


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Post: # 570414Post BAM! (shhhh) »

The Saintsational Man wrote:Funny thing is.....American sports rates a player as been at his peak at the age of 27.
Thats combining both mental and physical aspects.

I think once guys like Riewoldt, Kosi, Dal Santo, Goddard ect. reach near or around those ages.....we won't need flashy quick/young players.....

Hopefully the guys mentioned above will be so skilled that the ball will circle round the field between our players like clockwork.
Two quick points on that:
1) American Sports focus that way partly because they measure statistics more, but mainly because (as you point out) that's when the male physique is supposed to be at it's developmental peak prior to the inevitable aging that captures us all.
2) At least a couple of American sports have a much higher retirement age.

The arobic requirements and injuries of AFL mean that players often have taken a lot of damage by 27. OP, knees, soft tissue degradation, these all seem to be harder to come back from in AFL than in any of the US games. At the same time, we don't have the careers dissapear due to concussion like the NFL and NHL, so it's not all bad... but you ask the question, will Chris Judd ever be as good as he was at 22 again? Will Luke Ball ever be as good as he was at 21 again? Lenny Hayes is in the Prime by US numbers right now, but not in career best form, what's the knee done to him? And hence, does the same profile fit AFL as a sport? (I'd be fascinated to read a breakdown by someone like champion data on the subject)

The other thing is a philosophical difference... in NBA, NHL, defensive players tend to be the older guys, younger guys left to do things on talent... in AFL, players break in as taggers, and let offense shine as they get a "feel" for the speed of the game.

I agree with the Americans. I think a lot of our best players still have their best footy ahead. They have their best leadership ahead... someone like Nathan Buckley didn't really emerge as a true leader until he realised that sometimes where he led others could not follow, and made his leadership about other things that others could replicate - routine, respect, and team ethic (remember reading about it in the footy record in '01 or '02). Perhaps it will be the same for Reiwoldt (hard to say without being inside the other players heads), it can be tough to follow the example of someone as beyond gifted as Reiwoldt, as even things like his endurance come to be seen as pure talent rather than a reflection of hard work...

But whether it's your best 8 or your worst 8 that win premierships, 22 guys take the ground every week, and it's certainly handy having a good worst 8... so we need to be making sure that for as long as we've got a good core, we're doing everything we can to support them. I'd say we have for '08 so far, and it hasn't produced results. We don't need to flush '08 yet... but we should be making sure we don't hurt '09 or '10 by playing the wrong last 8.


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saintsRrising
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Post: # 570434Post saintsRrising »

SENsaintsational wrote:Thanks for the heads up on the other article by Walls. Just read it now.

I think Sydney with their recycled players are the stand out and stand alone, personally, as there are many other examples of clubs coming unstuck with the same philosophy in recent years.

Nth Melb - Hay, Rawlings, Green
Richmond - Kingsley, Hudson, Houlihan, Knobel, Blumfield
Adelaide - Carey, Burns
Fremantle - M Johnson, Solomon, Tarrant, Bradley
Essendon - Michael, Camporeale, Murphy, Allan, Heffernan
Melbourne - Pickett, Heffernan,
Carlton - Harford, Bowyer, McGrath

But granted, there are success stories in James Clement, the Sydney boys, Brodie Holland, Paul Medhurst, Heath Scotland, Jason Gram, Jason Akermanis, etc.

It's not a perfect science, but it seems more likelier than not that recycling is only a bandaid solution.

I think that there are a number of ways to go..

However which ever way you go....you need to do it well.


There are no "pure" examples of either way. For example the Hawks have gone the youth path....and then magnified their picks by trading players for more picks. However they have picked up Guerra and Dew (pick 45)...

..and Croad of course...who they gain backed ina good trade deal..after offloading him.

So the Hawks currently have 3 recysled players in their best 22.

Jacobs has retured injured...though he was gained before the current era.


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