why bag Lyon's recruiting /drafting???

[saintsRrising]

You start about Lyon's recruiting, but instead of showing anything to suggest it is good - you point out how bad GT's was.

Oh dear...This was in the OP RF

So in the following two years we have:
*AFL level players in Schneider, King, M Gardiner and Armitage
*as a minimum good depth players in Charlie and Dempster.
*very likely to succeed AFL level players in Steven, Allen, Geary and McEvoy
*certainly several other possibles…..Attard etc



This was pointing out that in RL's first two years he had obtained somewhere between 4 and upto possibly 10 players....compared to previous 2 years where there had only been 1.

It compared two consecutive two year periods.......and to paraphrase you "was entirely relevant"...and both are relevant to demonstrate that Lyon's recruiting has been good.

[Mr Magic]

I would add the term POT STIRRER when describing RodgerFox's posts over the last 2 weeks.
I'm certainly no expert but I think he is sitting at his keybord chuckling at the consternation and angst he is causing on this forum.

In one post he fully supports RL then a little later he fully supports GT, then a little later he decries the GT sacking but admonishes those calling for RL's sacking, saying the Coach should be given time because he's on the right track.

Quite frankly he has my head spinning with his tooing and froing and my only logical way to make any sense out of it all is to come to the conclusion he is having us all on.

It's almost like he's swapped personalities with Meher Baba who last year seemed rational and open-minded about the goings-on at St kilda but this year seems to have gone off the deep end in new found awe for all things GT and distaste for all things RL.

Mr Magic, you've hit the nail on the head here.

You, like many others find it hard to comprehend that someone could think Thomas did a good job, think it was wrong to sack him when we did, and think Lyon is going to be a good coach and want to keep him.

You, like many others seem to think that if you think Thomas did a good job, you must love. Therefore, you must hate Lyon and want him sacked.

You, like many others seem to think that if you didn't think Thomas did a good job, you must hate him and must love Lyon.


I don't.

Given that you have no idwea what I think about any of this I find it unbelievable that you can publish what I do or don't think.

This is what I believe.

I think that GT did a very good job in building us into a team.
I think that GT did a fabulous job in 2004 and a very good job in 2005.
I think that the better teams during 2005 worked out the way to defeat us and we seemed to be wallowing in the way to counteract their tactics.
I blelieve the Board became uneasy with some aspects of GT's coaching (and not his personla issues with RB) and approached him with suggested changes/enhancements to teh way the Club was doing.
I believe he spurned them and left them with no alternative but to terminate him.
I believe they then formed a professional sub-committee(s) to advise them on all areas of playing footy and then put into practise what those sub-commitee(s) advise, including a new coach, fitness regime, team management structure etc.
I bleieve that RL was the best applicant that the 'coaching sub-commitee' endorsed to the Board and that it is far too early to judge him yet.

I reckon that our positions are not too far away with the one major difference:-
I believe that RB and his Board did a great job for our Club.
You have expressed many times your absolute loathing for RB and so your view of his actions, including sacking GT, are most probably coloured by that overiding hatred?

[rodgerfox]

I would add the term POT STIRRER when describing RodgerFox's posts over the last 2 weeks.
I'm certainly no expert but I think he is sitting at his keybord chuckling at the consternation and angst he is causing on this forum.

In one post he fully supports RL then a little later he fully supports GT, then a little later he decries the GT sacking but admonishes those calling for RL's sacking, saying the Coach should be given time because he's on the right track.

Quite frankly he has my head spinning with his tooing and froing and my only logical way to make any sense out of it all is to come to the conclusion he is having us all on.

It's almost like he's swapped personalities with Meher Baba who last year seemed rational and open-minded about the goings-on at St kilda but this year seems to have gone off the deep end in new found awe for all things GT and distaste for all things RL.

Mr Magic, you've hit the nail on the head here.

You, like many others find it hard to comprehend that someone could think Thomas did a good job, think it was wrong to sack him when we did, and think Lyon is going to be a good coach and want to keep him.

You, like many others seem to think that if you think Thomas did a good job, you must love. Therefore, you must hate Lyon and want him sacked.

You, like many others seem to think that if you didn't think Thomas did a good job, you must hate him and must love Lyon.


I don't.

Given that you have no idwea what I think about any of this I find it unbelievable that you can publish what I do or don't think.

This is what I believe.

I think that GT did a very good job in building us into a team.
I think that GT did a fabulous job in 2004 and a very good job in 2005.
I think that the better teams during 2005 worked out the way to defeat us and we seemed to be wallowing in the way to counteract their tactics.
I blelieve the Board became uneasy with some aspects of GT's coaching (and not his personla issues with RB) and approached him with suggested changes/enhancements to teh way the Club was doing.
I believe he spurned them and left them with no alternative but to terminate him.
I believe they then formed a professional sub-committee(s) to advise them on all areas of playing footy and then put into practise what those sub-commitee(s) advise, including a new coach, fitness regime, team management structure etc.
I bleieve that RL was the best applicant that the 'coaching sub-commitee' endorsed to the Board and that it is far too early to judge him yet.

I reckon that our positions are not too far away with the one major difference:-
I believe that RB and his Board did a great job for our Club.
You have expressed many times your absolute loathing for RB and so your view of his actions, including sacking GT, are most probably coloured by that overiding hatred?

Loathing??

WTF?

Please provide one single sentence or post that backs that up.

Just one will do.

[rodgerfox]

Given that you have no idwea what I think about any of this I find it unbelievable that you can publish what I do or don't think.

This is what I believe.

I couldn't give a shiit what you believe.

And I never 'published' anything that suggests I do.

[Mr Magic]

I cannot because I don't know how to do it.
I'm pretty sure if you go back to th Board Election time last year you will find plenty of examples on many threads of your loathing/distaste/hatred/disaffection for RB.

IF I am mistaken then I apologise in advance, but I don't think I am.

[rodgerfox]

I cannot because I don't know how to do it.
I'm pretty sure if you go back to th Board Election time last year you will find plenty of examples on many threads of your loathing/distaste/hatred/disaffection for RB.

IF I am mistaken then I apologise in advance, but I don't think I am.

Disaffection is close.

But that is a very, very long way from loathing.

And besides, it's not him that I had disaffection for - it was the job he was doing at the club.

[Mr Magic]

I cannot because I don't know how to do it.
I'm pretty sure if you go back to th Board Election time last year you will find plenty of examples on many threads of your loathing/distaste/hatred/disaffection for RB.

IF I am mistaken then I apologise in advance, but I don't think I am.

Disaffection is close.

But that is a very, very long way from loathing.

And besides, it's not him that I had disaffection for - it was the job he was doing at the club.

Then I have obviously misunderstood your posts on that matter.

BUT, my point remains the same.
I felt he/they did a good job (albeit with some mistakes along the way!) and in that vein, I felt the Board acted correctly when they removed GT - you don't and that seems to be our main area of disagreement.

[rodgerfox]

BUT, my point remains the same.
I felt he/they did a good job (albeit with some mistakes along the way!) and in that vein, I felt the Board acted correctly when they removed GT - you don't and that seems to be our main area of disagreement.

For the 1000th time, here are my thoughts.....

Thomas did very well and we were unlucky ot not have won the flag in 05. We weren't good enough in 04. Simple. Port and Brisbane were better teams than us.

Injury is the only reason Thomas isn't our 2nd only premiership coach.

However, his game plan (like any) require 100% effort and intensity. This was lacking in 06. We still had 14 wins and again injury cost us.

That is more than likely the reason for the effort waning.

However, 2007 should have been Thomas' last year. I felt his message wasn't getting through anymore. We weren't getting the effort consistently.

We needed to hold firm on 2007, as with our list, it was the last year before we needed to mini-rebuild.

Changing coaches at that time, ruled out the 2007 season for us. This was foolish as we'd proven in 06, we were still a contender when not cruelled by injury.

We sacked him a year early.

And, it was for the wrong reasons. The timing was woeful, and the reasons were personal.


Lyon is a good appointment, and will need the rest of this year and part of next before we can consistently do what he wants us to.


Ok, there it is again. In black and white.

If that makes me a GT lover or GT apologist, then so be it.

[Winmar7Fan]

GT was a good player manger and mentor but i cannot believe anyone could think he was a good coach. It took 2 years for the penny to drop and put Fraser up forward from full back when we were litterally starving of goals (HELLO we got this guy from West Coast where he was a leading GOAL KICKER). Ive never seen such a red hot list of individual talent running around racking up heaps of possesions and not knowing what to do with them . Each mark not confidently moving the ball on quickly holding it up looking for someone to give it off to until everyone flooded back into our forward line . Playing against lwr sides with a good structure that ran us around and made us look stupid . I wanted him gone 3 years before he went . Ross Lyon is a far better coach . i think our midfield and clearances are far better its just our foot disposals letting us down with turnovers. By half time weve won everywhere but the scoreboard then our confidence is gone and we crumble. Get our kicking right including at goal and the domino effect will happen.

[groupie1]

yeah, what a mistake to give up TS 40 - look at the heights he's reached since leaving St Kilda?

[JeffDunne]

Each mark not confidently moving the ball on quickly holding it up looking for someone to give it off to until everyone flooded back into our forward line .

Huh?

So what have the past 18 months brought us?

Fast attacking football?

Playing against lwr sides with a good structure that ran us around and made us look stupid

Huh?

We used to smash lower teams.

We now make them look like potential grand finalists.

Ross Lyon is a far better coach

Of course he his . . . because . . . um . . .

[Winmar7Fan]

Each mark not confidently moving the ball on quickly holding it up looking for someone to give it off to until everyone flooded back into our forward line .

Huh?

So what have the past 18 months brought us?

Fast attacking football?

Playing against lwr sides with a good structure that ran us around and made us look stupid

Huh?

We used to smash lower teams.

We now make them look like potential grand finalists.

Ross Lyon is a far better coach

Of course he his . . . because . . . um . . .

Yeh put in now from back then Heath Black, Aussie Jones, Aaron Hamill, Stephen Powell,Luke Penny,and a five year younger Justin Peckett , Andrew Thompson, Fraser Gherig,Max Hudgeton and Robert Harvey and also a fresh Luke Ball not stuffed with injuries and we'll see if theres any difference . Your really happy with what we achieved back then ? We should have been smashing almost EVERY team. I can remember HEAPS of times losing and being pushed by sides that werent rated anywhere near our Superstar Glamour team that promised the world and now we expect Ross lyon to come in and take the next step. I know we dont like to face it but its all over and Ross Lyon is now rebiulding weve lost half of the best talent we had and replaced then with a bunch of snotty nosed kids and some mediocre rejects. As for what hes done in just over 12 months take a look back at where we were with GT after that long . They were also saying the same about Alister Clarkson too.

[rodgerfox]

Yeh put in now from back then Heath Black, Aussie Jones, Aaron Hamill, Stephen Powell,Luke Penny,and a five year younger Justin Peckett , Andrew Thompson, Fraser Gherig,Max Hudgeton and Robert Harvey and also a fresh Luke Ball not stuffed with injuries and we'll see if theres any difference . Your really happy with what we achieved back then ? We should have been smashing almost EVERY team. I can remember HEAPS of times losing and being pushed by sides that werent rated anywhere near our Superstar Glamour team that promised the world and now we expect Ross lyon to come in and take the next step. I know we dont like to face it but its all over and Ross Lyon is now rebiulding weve lost half of the best talent we had and replaced then with a bunch of snotty nosed kids and some mediocre rejects. As for what hes done in just over 12 months take a look back at where we were with GT after that long . They were also saying the same about Alister Clarkson too.

The field of Rocket Science is poorer for having missed out on your talents.

[yipper]

Yeh put in now from back then Heath Black, Aussie Jones, Aaron Hamill, Stephen Powell,Luke Penny,and a five year younger Justin Peckett , Andrew Thompson, Fraser Gherig,Max Hudgeton and Robert Harvey and also a fresh Luke Ball not stuffed with injuries and we'll see if theres any difference . Your really happy with what we achieved back then ? We should have been smashing almost EVERY team. I can remember HEAPS of times losing and being pushed by sides that werent rated anywhere near our Superstar Glamour team that promised the world and now we expect Ross lyon to come in and take the next step. I know we dont like to face it but its all over and Ross Lyon is now rebiulding weve lost half of the best talent we had and replaced then with a bunch of snotty nosed kids and some mediocre rejects. As for what hes done in just over 12 months take a look back at where we were with GT after that long . They were also saying the same about Alister Clarkson too.

The field of Rocket Science is poorer for having missed out on your talents.

[Winmar7Fan]

Yeh put in now from back then Heath Black, Aussie Jones, Aaron Hamill, Stephen Powell,Luke Penny,and a five year younger Justin Peckett , Andrew Thompson, Fraser Gherig,Max Hudgeton and Robert Harvey and also a fresh Luke Ball not stuffed with injuries and we'll see if theres any difference . Your really happy with what we achieved back then ? We should have been smashing almost EVERY team. I can remember HEAPS of times losing and being pushed by sides that werent rated anywhere near our Superstar Glamour team that promised the world and now we expect Ross lyon to come in and take the next step. I know we dont like to face it but its all over and Ross Lyon is now rebiulding weve lost half of the best talent we had and replaced then with a bunch of snotty nosed kids and some mediocre rejects. As for what hes done in just over 12 months take a look back at where we were with GT after that long . They were also saying the same about Alister Clarkson too.

The field of Rocket Science is poorer for having missed out on your talents.

Rocket Science ? Common sense to me

[Hard at it]

Well, well....post something showing the facts of our poor list development & management over the GT years, and all the GT apologist come out with their spin & BS to deflect and try to hide the reality. And all of this marketing spin is lead by the biggest GT Lover - Roger...

How any of you can claim we had a reasonable or good approach to running the footy dept over the 20004-2006 years is beyond belief. Under the GT model we destroyed any fortune we gained through the draft during the bottoming out years.

I have been saying this for a long time now:

Under the GT & RB model our footy department operations was becoming a rabble. We had neglected & mismanaged:
- Recruiting
- Player Development
- Player Management
- Injury Management
The ‘GT could do it all’ approach is dumb and dangerous….thankfully that cancer is gone now.

Too many people, through selective memory or love of GT, pine for some magical period when we were great. The truth is, we had a fortunate time in the footy world in 04 & 05, when many other teams were struggling....But we couldn’t capitalize. Then we began a major and rapid decline. All the other teams were gaining on us and many have now overtaken us.

Thankfully we have a board now that more level-headed & focused on what needs to be done, but things wont turnaround over night.

The sooner you GT apologist accept reality and move on, the better the position the club will be in...

For a start, people who use stats as 'facts' in footy are foolish.


Your post is what I find funny about this forum.

A thread is started supposedly defending Lyon's recruiting over the past 2 years. Fair enough.

However the OP, instead of defending Lyon, pots Thomas' recruiting instead. And somehow uses this as a guage to Lyon's work.


Then you Kaos Theory, and other obsessed people, turn this thread into an outright 'GT ruined our list' debate.

You'll find, is you'd bothered to read this thread, that I was one of very few who has actually stuck to the original topic of Lyon's recruiting - not GT's.

As for defending Thomas' approach to running the football department?? WTF??? Wanna discuss Graeme Gellie's approach whilst we're at it? What about Jezza's?

Fair dinkum. Talk about living in the past. You're laughable.

Yet it's the supposed 'GT lovers' and 'apologists' (do you even know what that means?) that come on to defend him.

As for me being a 'GT lover', could you please find one single post, one single sentence I have ever written to suggest that I love GT?

Just one. Provide just one.


You have again raised GT in a thread about Ross Lyon.

Hard at It raised GT in thread about Ross Lyon.

SrR raised GT in thread about Ross Lyon.


So please, get serious.


GT is gone.

Move on.



Our list is as good as any. Our talent is as good as ever. We just need to adapt to a new coach and a new game plan. As I said when Lyon came on board, it would take 2-3 years before we were back. I was berrated for suggesting that. We supposedly had the best list in the comp. A new coach was the answer you all said.

Just because you were sucked in to thinking that all we needed was a new coach to take the next step, does not mean you have to bring GT into every thread to vindicate your previous foolish and naive thoughts.

He's gone.

Move on.

You make me laugh, now you are saying our list is as good as any. Countless times you have said our list is overrated, you seem to be changing your mind daily. Which one is it today i wonder. It's amazing how someone can think we still have the best list yet only added 1 player in over 2 years of drafting/trading.

[Hard at it]

Injury is the only reason Thomas isn't our 2nd only premiership coach.

Thomas is the only reason we dont have a 2nd premiership.
Corrected for accuracy

We needed to hold firm on 2007, as with our list, it was the last year before we needed to mini-rebuild.

Mmm mini rebuild, yet previously you have posted our "list is as good as any" and "it's as good as it has ever been"
You are a classic

[rodgerfox]

Mmm mini rebuild, yet previously you have posted our "list is as good as any" and "it's as good as it has ever been"
You are a classic

It is as good as any.

It's not perfect, therefore was overrated.

Now it's actually being underrated.

Morons who are ignorant about the game of football, fail to understand that a new coach takes time to get his plans in place.

This confusion leads to us looking slow, unskillful and messy.

See Hawthorn when Clarkson took over. See St Kilda when Thomas over. See Bulldogs when Eade took over etc.


Our list was extremely overrated, because the core of the group were still only 50 gamers. How can a list with it's KPPs being aged 21, 19, 19 and 20 be the best list in the comp? It's just stupid when they are up against spines like Geelong's with Scarlett, Harley, Ottens and Mooney.

Our midfield was made up of a 19yo, and 21yo and a 23yo - plus fringe veterans like Thompson and Powell (Harvey of course too).

This up against midfields like Adelaide's with McLeod, Goodwin, Edwards and Riccuito.

Seriously, our list was the best in the league for potential, but certainly not ability at that point. Anyone who thought it was, was simply a fool.

This is not the recipe for premierships. Your core needs to be up towards the 80-100 mark for your list to be at it's peak.

In 07 and 08, that's where we're at now.

Our veterans are now Max, Harves, King and Gehrig. All still of great value.

Our core now runs deeper than ever and are at their football peak in terms of age and experience - Joey, Roo, Kosi, Ball, Dal, BJ, Lenny, X, Goose (hopefully), Bakes, Milne, Fisher, Gram.

Remember, we're talking about the 'list' here. On paper, these guys are far, far better value with 2-3 pre-seasons and 50 games under their belts.

We also have Armitage, Geary and Allen pushing through. Instead of battlers like Peckett, Thompson and Powell being the ones pushing for selection.

Blake and Rix aren't getting games now.


Our list now, is far better than it was.

It's not playing better, but that's due to obvious reasons.


Makes sense smart arse?

[joffaboy]

Thomas is the only reason we dont have a 2nd premiership.

lol - really I mean LOL - what a load of bollocks.

[Winmar7Fan]

Many on this forum including RogerFox scorned by views...but I note that PA played off in the GF.

Lying again??

I tipped Port to be top 4 last year. Not because of the Guru Williams and his magical player development like you did - but because they are a very good football side. They finished on top for 3 straight years then won a flag. Were good again in 05 and had a horrific run with injury in 06 yet were still quite competitive.

I tipped them to be a contender simply because they had the Cornes', the Burgoyne's, Tredrea, Wakelin, Lade, Brogan, Motlop and Wilson making up their core.

Once they got these guys fit again, it was natural they would come good.

I tipped them to be a contender for the obvious correct reason, not the typical bulls*** you waffle on about.


This is why people call you a liar SrR.

I might be opening up a can of worms here but is anyone willing to consider maybe another reason for our lack of success and other teams constant competitiveness and ability to keep coming back like PA and Lions is Club professionalism?

[Winmar7Fan]

Mmm mini rebuild, yet previously you have posted our "list is as good as any" and "it's as good as it has ever been"
You are a classic

It is as good as any.

It's not perfect, therefore was overrated.

Now it's actually being underrated.

Morons who are ignorant about the game of football, fail to understand that a new coach takes time to get his plans in place.

This confusion leads to us looking slow, unskillful and messy.

See Hawthorn when Clarkson took over. See St Kilda when Thomas over. See Bulldogs when Eade took over etc.


Our list was extremely overrated, because the core of the group were still only 50 gamers. How can a list with it's KPPs being aged 21, 19, 19 and 20 be the best list in the comp? It's just stupid when they are up against spines like Geelong's with Scarlett, Harley, Ottens and Mooney.

Our midfield was made up of a 19yo, and 21yo and a 23yo - plus fringe veterans like Thompson and Powell (Harvey of course too).

This up against midfields like Adelaide's with McLeod, Goodwin, Edwards and Riccuito.

Seriously, our list was the best in the league for potential, but certainly not ability at that point. Anyone who thought it was, was simply a fool.

This is not the recipe for premierships. Your core needs to be up towards the 80-100 mark for your list to be at it's peak.

In 07 and 08, that's where we're at now.

Our veterans are now Max, Harves, King and Gehrig. All still of great value.

Our core now runs deeper than ever and are at their football peak in terms of age and experience - Joey, Roo, Kosi, Ball, Dal, BJ, Lenny, X, Goose (hopefully), Bakes, Milne, Fisher, Gram.

Remember, we're talking about the 'list' here. On paper, these guys are far, far better value with 2-3 pre-seasons and 50 games under their belts.

We also have Armitage, Geary and Allen pushing through. Instead of battlers like Peckett, Thompson and Powell being the ones pushing for selection.

Blake and Rix aren't getting games now.


Our list now, is far better than it was.

It's not playing better, but that's due to obvious reasons.


Makes sense smart arse?

Wow if half our players were as aggressive as you things may be totally different. players who are going to be something usually show it by 50 games so i dont see your point there .you could have 100 games under your belt and still be a dud.Ive heard the most amazing comments but our list is far better than it was is the craziest thing ive heard yet and to compare Armitage, Geary and Allen who have proven nothing yet to Peckett, Thompson and Powell with their careers is insane.They were still playing better football at their retirement.You also forgot Ben Mcevoy to succeed Fraser Gehrig.

[rodgerfox]

Wow if half our players were as aggressive as you things may be totally different. players who are going to be something usually show it by 50 games so i dont see your point there .you could have 100 games under your belt and still be a dud.Ive heard the most amazing comments but our list is far better than it was is the craziest thing ive heard yet and to compare Armitage, Geary and Allen who have proven nothing yet to Peckett, Thompson and Powell with their careers is insane.They were still playing better football at their retirement.You also forgot Ben Mcevoy to succeed Fraser Gehrig.

'Showing it', and 'producing it to the level of being a premiership team and considered to be the best in the league', are two very, very different things.

[barks4eva]

Thomas is the only reason we dont have a 2nd premiership.

Concur 100%, good to see someone with a clue around this place

If we'd have had a professionally run football department, quality fitness and conditioning staff then the things that tripped us up, might have been avoided.

The fact that the football department was the dictatorship of one man, and one who was a rookie learning the ropes, has sent the football club back 5 1/2 years, completely stuffed the list that he inherited, through poor recruiting, abysmal player development and almost no rookies whatsoever, except for Milne and the 'project player" Murray.

Our list needs a rebuild because all the talk about building a decade of success was just that talk, the things that were actioned, were done for the here and now, the gamble backfired and Lyon has to clean up the mess that was left behind.


If anything Thomas cost this club a premiership, when we had the list primed and ready and Gomer Pyle, Forrest Gump, Mr Bean, Abbott and Costello, Laurel and Hardy, The Two Ronnies, The Three Stooges and Monty Python's Flying Circus could have coached the list back then to three finals series running, what we needed was a professionally run football department, not the dominion of one man and also a TEAM of quality fitness and conditioning staff, which we finally now have in place.

The list will need to be rebuilt, we already have the nucleus, but we need some more quality kids developed and coming through.

[rodgerfox]

and also a TEAM of quality fitness and conditioning staff, which we finally now have in place.

Working a treat isn't it?

[barks4eva]

and also a TEAM of quality fitness and conditioning staff, which we finally now have in place.

Working a treat isn't it?

dodgy you are saintsational's mosquito