why bag Lyon's recruiting /drafting???

[Hard at it]

Does anyone think Carlton have recruited well over the past 3 years?

They've added 3 No. picks and recruited the best player in the comp.

Does anyone think the two years in which they added Gibbs and Murphy have made a huge difference to their performance 2 years down the track?

They recruited as well as anyone could have for a 2 year period. Finished last and scored a No. 1 pick.

The following year they finished last and sored another No. 1 pick.

The following year, finished second last and had only one more win than the previous year (4).


Based on the fact that Carlton had a 2 year period in which they picked up 2 No. 1 picks yet still finished second bottom with only 4 wins, are we really suggesting that by us not recruiting well in a 2 year period, we're now stuffed a year later in terms of our list?

2 years of drafting and only adding one solid player (Gilbert) is pathetic. 10 years of GT type drafting/trading and we wouldn't have enough solid players to fill a forward line. Everyone could see the list was going backwards after the 8th placed 2006 finish

[JeffDunne]

Everyone could see the list was going backwards after the 8th placed 2006 finish

Does that "everyone" include Ross Lyon?

[rodgerfox]

Does anyone think Carlton have recruited well over the past 3 years?

They've added 3 No. picks and recruited the best player in the comp.

Does anyone think the two years in which they added Gibbs and Murphy have made a huge difference to their performance 2 years down the track?

They recruited as well as anyone could have for a 2 year period. Finished last and scored a No. 1 pick.

The following year they finished last and sored another No. 1 pick.

The following year, finished second last and had only one more win than the previous year (4).


Based on the fact that Carlton had a 2 year period in which they picked up 2 No. 1 picks yet still finished second bottom with only 4 wins, are we really suggesting that by us not recruiting well in a 2 year period, we're now stuffed a year later in terms of our list?

2 years of drafting and only adding one solid player (Gilbert) is pathetic. 10 years of GT type drafting/trading and we wouldn't have enough solid players to fill a forward line. Everyone could see the list was going backwards after the 8th placed 2006 finish

Care to answer the question?

[meher baba]

Attn: rodgerfox and Jeff Dunne

You are never gonig to win this argument.

The facts are, as I have stated earlier in this thread, that we only had picks outside the top 10 in 2004 and 2005 (and not particularly good ones at that) and, on top of that, the quality of the draft fields outside the top ten also fell away severely during that time.

There are no megastars at any club recruited outside the top 10 in 2004 and 2005 (other than F/S picks) playing at any club: Van Berlo is about the best of them, and I'm not sure that he is actually a better player than Gilbert.

These facts don't seem to sway those who hold to the "GT destroyed our list" line, so why would arguing with them produce a better result?

[saintly]

Does anyone think Carlton have recruited well over the past 3 years?

They've added 3 No. picks and recruited the best player in the comp.

Does anyone think the two years in which they added Gibbs and Murphy have made a huge difference to their performance 2 years down the track?

They recruited as well as anyone could have for a 2 year period. Finished last and scored a No. 1 pick.

The following year they finished last and sored another No. 1 pick.

The following year, finished second last and had only one more win than the previous year (4).


Based on the fact that Carlton had a 2 year period in which they picked up 2 No. 1 picks yet still finished second bottom with only 4 wins, are we really suggesting that by us not recruiting well in a 2 year period, we're now stuffed a year later in terms of our list?

I don't like carlton but i believe...

Why don't we look at carlton in 2 years time. carlton will win a few more games this year, vy for spot in the 8 next year, and in 2010 will be looking at a top 4 spot.

[rodgerfox]

Does anyone think Carlton have recruited well over the past 3 years?

They've added 3 No. picks and recruited the best player in the comp.

Does anyone think the two years in which they added Gibbs and Murphy have made a huge difference to their performance 2 years down the track?

They recruited as well as anyone could have for a 2 year period. Finished last and scored a No. 1 pick.

The following year they finished last and sored another No. 1 pick.

The following year, finished second last and had only one more win than the previous year (4).


Based on the fact that Carlton had a 2 year period in which they picked up 2 No. 1 picks yet still finished second bottom with only 4 wins, are we really suggesting that by us not recruiting well in a 2 year period, we're now stuffed a year later in terms of our list?

I don't like carlton but i believe...

Why don't we look at carlton in 2 years time. carlton will win a few more games this year, vy for spot in the 8 next year, and in 2010 will be looking at a top 4 spot.

Ok, so in 2 years time what happened at the draft table might become relevant? 4 years after the fact, it has an effect.

So why are we blaming drafting at our club from only 2 years ago for our supposed poor list?

[saintsRrising]

Who said the list was "stuffed" because of a two year peroiod?

What I have said is that it had gone into decline and was not as good as it could or should have been given the opportnities available

I have not said the the decline in the list was terminal...but what I have said that it had developed some flaws and weaknesses that needed addressing.

RL did not inherit the "best list in the competition"....but he did inherit a list which had many good points, was better than most, but had some real deficiencies that needed to be worked upon...and still need working on.


The main point of my OP was it is my belief that RL has done his best to address those flaws and weakness with well thought out and appropriate selections....and that such thinking and execution had been poor in the proceeding few years.


good recruiting is not gettinga swag of No 1 picks...it is about on average getting good value from the balance of your picks...including rookies.

It is not about perefction as no one can be 100% correct....but is about recruiting the right type of players that you actually need....and in getting more picks right than wrong.


Even if Watts had not had his injiry do you really think that we needed another big slow forward such as he at present...except as perhaps an emergency back up???

[rodgerfox]

Who said the list was "stuffed" because of a two year peroiod?

What I have said is that it had gone into decline and was not as good as it could or should have been given the opportnities available

I have not said the the decline in the list was terminal...but what I have said that it had developed some flaws and weaknesses that needed addressing.

RL did not inherit the "best list in the competition"....but he did inherit a list which had many good points, was better than most, but had some real deficiencies that needed to be worked upon...and still need working on.


The main point of my OP was it is my belief that RL has done his best to address those flaws and weakness with well thought out and appropriate selections....and that such thinking and execution had been poor in the proceeding few years.

Is there a list in the comp that doesn't have deficiencies?

[saintsRrising]

Is there a list in the comp that doesn't have deficiencies?

No there is not.

But under GT in his latter period we were gaining more and more deficiencies...

The trend was in decline....

Ruck division good when he took over...not when he left...

Ample mids gained in the Waldron era....way too much reliance on "old" mids when he left with not enough "next generation coming through"


Penny's knee was known about by insiders at the club....but no provision for a future key defender...except possibly for Gilbert.

Hamill's bone on bone knees were known about by those at the club (and an ex-Club Doc has confirmed this to me)...but failure to develop any new HFF's. ((Poochy was actually almost right with his info...except he had his wires crossed about it being a bone disease. At the time of Poochies posts those in control at the Club knew that Hamill's knees were shot....it was known that they would eventually stop him from playing as they would get worse. The only unknown was eactly when)).

The cracks were opening wide......and were only being papered only rather than fixed.

[True Blue Sainter]

Meher Baba...


So what if w haven't had Top 10 picks? If you look at, for example, the premier ruckmen in the comp, Cox and Sandilands, both were rookie selections! You don't need to be taken high in the draft to be a player that's capable of playing AFL football.

[rodgerfox]

Is there a list in the comp that doesn't have deficiencies?

No there is not.

But under GT in his latter period we were gaining more and more deficiencies...

The trend was in decline....

Ruck division good when he took over...not when he left...

WTF???

Now I know you're joking.

Ample mids gained in the Waldron era....way too much reliance on "old" mids when he left with not enough "next generation coming through"


Penny's knee was known about by insiders at the club....but no provision for a future key defender...except possibly for Gilbert.

Hamill's bone on bone knees were known about by those at the club (and an ex-Club Doc has confirmed this to me)...but failure to develop any new HFF's. ((Poochy was actually almost right with his info...except he had his wires crossed about it being a bone disease. At the time of Poochies posts those in control at the Club knew that Hamill's knees were shot....it was known that they would eventually stop him from playing as they would get worse. The only unknown was eactly when)).

The cracks were opening wide......and were only being papered only rather than fixed.

As I said, particularly for a top 4 team, name a single club that doesn't have a list with deficiencies?

[rodgerfox]

Meher Baba...


So what if w haven't had Top 10 picks? If you look at, for example, the premier ruckmen in the comp, Cox and Sandilands, both were rookie selections! You don't need to be taken high in the draft to be a player that's capable of playing AFL football.

What if Cox and Sandilands did their knees or broke their legs like Watts and Brooks did, do you think they would be the players they are now?

[kaos theory]

Well, well....post something showing the facts of our poor list development & management over the GT years, and all the GT apologist come out with their spin & BS to deflect and try to hide the reality. And all of this marketing spin is lead by the biggest GT Lover - Roger...

How any of you can claim we had a reasonable or good approach to running the footy dept over the 20004-2006 years is beyond belief. Under the GT model we destroyed any fortune we gained through the draft during the bottoming out years.

I have been saying this for a long time now:

Under the GT & RB model our footy department operations was becoming a rabble. We had neglected & mismanaged:
- Recruiting
- Player Development
- Player Management
- Injury Management
The ‘GT could do it all’ approach is dumb and dangerous….thankfully that cancer is gone now.

Too many people, through selective memory or love of GT, pine for some magical period when we were great. The truth is, we had a fortunate time in the footy world in 04 & 05, when many other teams were struggling....But we couldn’t capitalize. Then we began a major and rapid decline. All the other teams were gaining on us and many have now overtaken us.

Thankfully we have a board now that more level-headed & focused on what needs to be done, but things wont turnaround over night.

The sooner you GT apologist accept reality and move on, the better the position the club will be in...

[joffaboy]

Look forward. Counterproductive to look backward at the percieved failures of previous coaches.

[rodgerfox]

Well, well....post something showing the facts of our poor list development & management over the GT years, and all the GT apologist come out with their spin & BS to deflect and try to hide the reality. And all of this marketing spin is lead by the biggest GT Lover - Roger...

How any of you can claim we had a reasonable or good approach to running the footy dept over the 20004-2006 years is beyond belief. Under the GT model we destroyed any fortune we gained through the draft during the bottoming out years.

I have been saying this for a long time now:

Under the GT & RB model our footy department operations was becoming a rabble. We had neglected & mismanaged:
- Recruiting
- Player Development
- Player Management
- Injury Management
The ‘GT could do it all’ approach is dumb and dangerous….thankfully that cancer is gone now.

Too many people, through selective memory or love of GT, pine for some magical period when we were great. The truth is, we had a fortunate time in the footy world in 04 & 05, when many other teams were struggling....But we couldn’t capitalize. Then we began a major and rapid decline. All the other teams were gaining on us and many have now overtaken us.

Thankfully we have a board now that more level-headed & focused on what needs to be done, but things wont turnaround over night.

The sooner you GT apologist accept reality and move on, the better the position the club will be in...

For a start, people who use stats as 'facts' in footy are foolish.


Your post is what I find funny about this forum.

A thread is started supposedly defending Lyon's recruiting over the past 2 years. Fair enough.

However the OP, instead of defending Lyon, pots Thomas' recruiting instead. And somehow uses this as a guage to Lyon's work.


Then you Kaos Theory, and other obsessed people, turn this thread into an outright 'GT ruined our list' debate.

You'll find, is you'd bothered to read this thread, that I was one of very few who has actually stuck to the original topic of Lyon's recruiting - not GT's.

As for defending Thomas' approach to running the football department?? WTF??? Wanna discuss Graeme Gellie's approach whilst we're at it? What about Jezza's?

Fair dinkum. Talk about living in the past. You're laughable.

Yet it's the supposed 'GT lovers' and 'apologists' (do you even know what that means?) that come on to defend him.

As for me being a 'GT lover', could you please find one single post, one single sentence I have ever written to suggest that I love GT?

Just one. Provide just one.


You have again raised GT in a thread about Ross Lyon.

Hard at It raised GT in thread about Ross Lyon.

SrR raised GT in thread about Ross Lyon.


So please, get serious.


GT is gone.

Move on.



Our list is as good as any. Our talent is as good as ever. We just need to adapt to a new coach and a new game plan. As I said when Lyon came on board, it would take 2-3 years before we were back. I was berrated for suggesting that. We supposedly had the best list in the comp. A new coach was the answer you all said.

Just because you were sucked in to thinking that all we needed was a new coach to take the next step, does not mean you have to bring GT into every thread to vindicate your previous foolish and naive thoughts.

He's gone.

Move on.

[saintsRrising]

Your post is what I find funny about this forum.

.
.
.


You have again raised GT in a thread about Ross Lyon.

Hard at It raised GT in thread about Ross Lyon.

SrR raised GT in thread about Ross Lyon.


So please, get serious.


GT is gone.

Move on.


.

What a total hypocirite you are:

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... highlight=

April 9 2008.

You start a thread on Lyon

Lyon - Long Term? Or 'the next step'?

The first line of which is:

I spoke to Grant Thomas at a function in the week after the Swans broke our 'streak' back in 2004.

...and you go on to regail us with GT isms…

Most of the post was about GT…before you later switched to RL.


Then in this string you expose yourself for the hypocrite that you are
by complaining about Forumites discussing GT in a thread about Lyon!!!

Pot Kettle Black.

You tell people to move on about GT...but have written an OP recently featuring GT.

Pot Kettle Black.

[Mr Magic]

I would add the term POT STIRRER when describing RodgerFox's posts over the last 2 weeks.
I'm certainly no expert but I think he is sitting at his keybord chuckling at the consternation and angst he is causing on this forum.

In one post he fully supports RL then a little later he fully supports GT, then a little later he decries the GT sacking but admonishes those calling for RL's sacking, saying the Coach should be given time because he's on the right track.

Quite frankly he has my head spinning with his tooing and froing and my only logical way to make any sense out of it all is to come to the conclusion he is having us all on.

It's almost like he's swapped personalities with Meher Baba who last year seemed rational and open-minded about the goings-on at St kilda but this year seems to have gone off the deep end in new found awe for all things GT and distaste for all things RL.

[rodgerfox]

Your post is what I find funny about this forum.

.
.
.


You have again raised GT in a thread about Ross Lyon.

Hard at It raised GT in thread about Ross Lyon.

SrR raised GT in thread about Ross Lyon.


So please, get serious.


GT is gone.

Move on.


.

What a total hypocirite you are:

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... highlight=

April 9 2008.

You start a thread on Lyon

Lyon - Long Term? Or 'the next step'?

The first line of which is:

I spoke to Grant Thomas at a function in the week after the Swans broke our 'streak' back in 2004.

...and you go on to regail us with GT isms…

Most of the post was about GT…before you later switched to RL.


Then in this string you expose yourself for the hypocrite that you are
by complaining about Forumites discussing GT in a thread about Lyon!!!

Pot Kettle Black.

You tell people to move on about GT...but have written an OP recently featuring GT.

Pot Kettle Black.

That thread was entirely based on the fact that Lyon needs time to get the group to do what he wants them to do, exactly the same as any coach does.

It wasn't blaming GT for anything, wasn't giving him credit for anything.

I could have used any coach that I'd spoken to about how it takes time to get your plan in place - but who better to use as an example than the previous coach of our club?

Using an ex-coach of our club was utterly relavent in that thread. I'm perplexed that in your attempt to be a smart arse (which you're not very good at) you use a perfectly logical thread as an example.


As for complaining about forumites discussing GT, what I complained about in this thread is waankers turning every thread into GT threads then having the gaul to suggest that the 'GT lovers' can't get over him.

[yipper]

I would add the term POT STIRRER when describing RodgerFox's posts over the last 2 weeks.
I'm certainly no expert but I think he is sitting at his keybord chuckling at the consternation and angst he is causing on this forum.

In one post he fully supports RL then a little later he fully supports GT, then a little later he decries the GT sacking but admonishes those calling for RL's sacking, saying the Coach should be given time because he's on the right track.

Quite frankly he has my head spinning with his tooing and froing and my only logical way to make any sense out of it all is to come to the conclusion he is having us all on.

It's almost like he's swapped personalities with Meher Baba who last year seemed rational and open-minded about the goings-on at St kilda but this year seems to have gone off the deep end in new found awe for all things GT and distaste for all things RL.

That's a pretty accurate summary I reckon - bit hard to keep up with some of the posters on here!!

[rodgerfox]

I would add the term POT STIRRER when describing RodgerFox's posts over the last 2 weeks.
I'm certainly no expert but I think he is sitting at his keybord chuckling at the consternation and angst he is causing on this forum.

In one post he fully supports RL then a little later he fully supports GT, then a little later he decries the GT sacking but admonishes those calling for RL's sacking, saying the Coach should be given time because he's on the right track.

Quite frankly he has my head spinning with his tooing and froing and my only logical way to make any sense out of it all is to come to the conclusion he is having us all on.

It's almost like he's swapped personalities with Meher Baba who last year seemed rational and open-minded about the goings-on at St kilda but this year seems to have gone off the deep end in new found awe for all things GT and distaste for all things RL.

Mr Magic, you've hit the nail on the head here.

You, like many others find it hard to comprehend that someone could think Thomas did a good job, think it was wrong to sack him when we did, and think Lyon is going to be a good coach and want to keep him.

You, like many others seem to think that if you think Thomas did a good job, you must love. Therefore, you must hate Lyon and want him sacked.

You, like many others seem to think that if you didn't think Thomas did a good job, you must hate him and must love Lyon.


I don't.

[yipper]

I would add the term POT STIRRER when describing RodgerFox's posts over the last 2 weeks.
I'm certainly no expert but I think he is sitting at his keybord chuckling at the consternation and angst he is causing on this forum.

In one post he fully supports RL then a little later he fully supports GT, then a little later he decries the GT sacking but admonishes those calling for RL's sacking, saying the Coach should be given time because he's on the right track.

Quite frankly he has my head spinning with his tooing and froing and my only logical way to make any sense out of it all is to come to the conclusion he is having us all on.

It's almost like he's swapped personalities with Meher Baba who last year seemed rational and open-minded about the goings-on at St kilda but this year seems to have gone off the deep end in new found awe for all things GT and distaste for all things RL.

Mr Magic, you've hit the nail on the head here.

You, like many others find it hard to comprehend that someone could think Thomas did a good job, think it was wrong to sack him when we did, and think Lyon is going to be a good coach and want to keep him.

You, like many others seem to think that if you think Thomas did a good job, you must love. Therefore, you must hate Lyon and want him sacked.

You, like many others seem to think that if you didn't think Thomas did a good job, you must hate him and must love Lyon.


I don't.

You don't what??

[krabb]

Posters waffle on in here just to feed their own ego's...lets be honest nobody in here has a clue what the club needs to do to fix whats wrong.

Why cant the club be adventurous for once?

Why cant they chuck the kids in just to see what happens?

Why do we top up with rejects from other clubs?

Its a short term fix to a longterm problem...and none of them are our future.

Why not approach melbourne and offer them a trade right now of...

Milne..Dal Santo...X Clarke and whoever else you want to chuck into the pot for a kid who looks like he's going to be the goods we need...Natanui.

We are so predictable...even bordering on boring...Im not against Lyon...but he's yet to prove he's got something special in the coaching department...

I doubt we will see a grand final with this team.

[saintsRrising]

Using an ex-coach of our club was utterly relavent in that thread. I'm perplexed that in your attempt to be a smart arse (which you're not very good at) you use a perfectly logical thread as an example.


.

Face it Rodge...I have exposed your hypocrisy...

You took forumites to task for raising GT in a RL Thread..

...when you have done EXACTLY the same thing in reverse.

Whether it was relevant or not...was not your point!!!!!

I merely used your test on yourself...and you failed.

Now that I have once again caught you out....and have documented how and why...you once again "name call"...squirm and fail to acknowledge that you were wrong....or how hypocritical you are.


All this after SPAMMING repeatedly in the string over and over a post from MB from another string...which you did not actually acknowledge.


The pity is that often you write some good posts...but too often you get sidetracked away and seek to SPAM or distract threads rather than just participate.

[rodgerfox]

Using an ex-coach of our club was utterly relavent in that thread. I'm perplexed that in your attempt to be a smart arse (which you're not very good at) you use a perfectly logical thread as an example.


.

Face it Rodge...I have exposed your hypocrisy...

You took forumites to task for raising GT in a RL Thread..

...when you have done EXACTLY the same thing in reverse.

Whether it was relevant or not...was not your point!!!!!

I merely used your test on yourself...and you failed.

Now that I have once again caught you out....and have documented how and why...you once again "name call"...squirm and fail to acknowledge that you were wrong....or how hypocritical you are.


All this after SPAMMING repeatedly in the string over and over a post from MB from another string...which you did not actually acknowledge.

What planet are you on??

You start a thread about Lyon's recruiting, but instead of showing anything to suggest it is good - you point out how bad GT's was.

Then I get accused of being a GT lover who cant move on.

That's what I responded to.


Where is the hypocrisy in that?? The thread you used (although completely irrelevant in a thread about Lyon's recruiting??) is solely about the fact that Thomas took years to get the group to click therefore Lyon needs to get the same chance.

You see something wrong with that????

You'll find if you read my posts, that I have no issue with the mere mention of GT (he was, after all the club's coach for 5 years) - it's the bitching and moaning about what a monster he was and how thanks to that big meanie we are now stuffed forever, that I want to see people move on from.

Perhaps you should look up the definition of hypocrite....

[rodgerfox]

You, like many others find it hard to comprehend that someone could think Thomas did a good job, think it was wrong to sack him when we did, and think Lyon is going to be a good coach and want to keep him.

You, like many others seem to think that if you think Thomas did a good job, you must love. Therefore, you must hate Lyon and want him sacked.

You, like many others seem to think that if you didn't think Thomas did a good job, you must hate him and must love Lyon.


I don't.

You don't what??

I don't believe that you cannot have an open mind on the topic of our club.

It's not either black or white.