why bag Lyon's recruiting /drafting???

[vacuous space]

I posted on PA on their approach as an example of what I would do in terms of fixing our list and that PA would quickly rebuild...

2004
11 - Adam Thomson
34 - James Ezard
35 - Fabian Deluca
51 - Ben Eckermann
Traded Josh Carr. Picked up Aaron Shattock.

2005
30 - Nick Lower
44 - Alipate Carlile
58 - Hugh Minson
70 - Jonathan Giles
Traded Byron Pickett. Picked up Nathan Lonie and Daniel Motlop

[rodgerfox]

I posted on PA on their approach as an example of what I would do in terms of fixing our list and that PA would quickly rebuild...

2004
11 - Adam Thomson
34 - James Ezard
35 - Fabian Deluca
51 - Ben Eckermann
Traded Josh Carr. Picked up Aaron Shattock.

2005
30 - Nick Lower
44 - Alipate Carlile
58 - Hugh Minson
70 - Jonathan Giles
Traded Byron Pickett. Picked up Nathan Lonie and Daniel Motlop

Gee, brilliant list management that.


Interesting that they appeared to have got the best results from top ups too.

[saintsRrising]

I posted on PA on their approach as an example of what I would do in terms of fixing our list and that PA would quickly rebuild...

2004
11 - Adam Thomson
34 - James Ezard
35 - Fabian Deluca
51 - Ben Eckermann
Traded Josh Carr. Picked up Aaron Shattock.

2005
30 - Nick Lower
44 - Alipate Carlile
58 - Hugh Minson
70 - Jonathan Giles
Traded Byron Pickett. Picked up Nathan Lonie and Daniel Motlop

Gee, brilliant list management that.


Interesting that they appeared to have got the best results from top ups too.

Ok even if it is off topic...but as you have raised it..Williams vs GT for this period.

Now firstly how about we add in ALL the players recruited bt PA in this period that are still playing senior fooball for PA????.

We then get a pool of players of;

Danyle Pearce
Greg Bentley
Tom Logan
Carlile
Motlop
Thomas
Thomson

The above is I think by any measure a better return than Gilbert and Gwilt.


...and some of the others such as Lower, Giles and Deluca are still there (I don't watch their reserves and so no real idea on how they are going..and whether they will make it or not)[/b]

I am not sure why you are so scathing of William's record in this period.

"Gee, brilliant list management that"...well surely far superior than GT in the same period is it not?????

[rodgerfox]

I posted on PA on their approach as an example of what I would do in terms of fixing our list and that PA would quickly rebuild...

2004
11 - Adam Thomson
34 - James Ezard
35 - Fabian Deluca
51 - Ben Eckermann
Traded Josh Carr. Picked up Aaron Shattock.

2005
30 - Nick Lower
44 - Alipate Carlile
58 - Hugh Minson
70 - Jonathan Giles
Traded Byron Pickett. Picked up Nathan Lonie and Daniel Motlop

Gee, brilliant list management that.


Interesting that they appeared to have got the best results from top ups too.

Ok even if it is off topic...but as you have raised it..Williams vs GT for this period.

Now firstly how about we add in ALL the players recruited bt PA in this period that are still playing senior fooball for PA????.

We then get a pool of players of;

Danyle Pearce
Greg Bentley
Tom Logan
Carlile
Motlop
Thomas
Thomson

The above is I think by any measure a better return than Gilbert and Gwilt.


...and some of the others such as Lower, Giles and Deluca are still there (I don't watch their reserves and so no real idea on how they are going..and whether they will make it or not)[/b]

I am not sure why you are so scathing of William's record in this period.

"Gee, brilliant list management that"...well surely far superior than GT in the same period is it not?????

Ahhh you show your true colours again when proven wrong. What the f*** does Williams vs GT have to do with anything FFS? He's gone!!!! Move on!! Jesus.

Who's scathing of Williams' record? Lying yet again??


Every time you think of posting, you should read this....


"It''s a bit like how several posters (interestingly, mostly the same ones) would endlessly deride GT for certain actions which they are totally silent when Lyon does them, eg: Blake as a ruckman, the regular selection of unreliable or low skill players, the lack of any sort of plan B, etc., etc.

I've come to the conclusion that some of the extremely regular posters on here are like those fans you sometimes sit near at the footy who have an endless supply of criticism for most current players, the coaching staff and all aspects of the club unless we are winning by 6 goals or more.

The only reason that they are silent about Lyon is because many of them went so far out on a limb for so long about how wonderful he was going to be compared to GT. However, if you read their posts carefully, you can see that some of them are slowly positioning themselves to turn on Lyon when they feel ready (probably straight after the club sacks him and replaces him with a new coach whom these imbeciles can immediately elevate to the status of the new saviour).

The tragedy for more level-headed supporters is that we can see how Butterss and the previous board stuffed everything up completely during 2006-07 and are now lamenting that these monumental mistakes have quite possibly robbed us of a precious premiership or two.

We could see that the main reason that we didn't win flags in 2005 and 2006 was nothing to do with GT's failings as a coach or with our inability to copy the Swans' tedious game plan, but was almost entirely due to our appalling run with injuries.

We could see that the main factor in our injury problems was not the unfairly maligned Larcom or anything GT or any other human being had done, but was the fact that we played week in and week out on the Telstra Dome surface.

We could see that bringing in a new, inexperienced bunch of coaching staff with no background at the club, a game plan designed for a small, circular ground (ie, not the Dome or the MCG) and a large bunch of mercenary rejects from other clubs (count them: Birss, Gardi, M Clarke, Schneider, C Gardiner, Dempster and King) wasn't going to take us to "the next level".

I'm sick of arguing about it: it's just a damn shame, that's all."


Unbelievable. You were wrong. If you won't admit it like a man, then fine. But just let it be.

[saintsRrising]

Ahhh you show your true colours again when proven wrong. What the f*** does Williams vs GT have to do with anything FFS? He's gone!!!! Move on!! Jesus.

Who's scathing of Williams' record? Lying yet again??


.

You were...see your post above.

Hey...you raised it Rodger.

I just added in the extra PA players that had not be raised to make the comparisona valid one.

[Apu]

Whilst iam am not huge a GT fan due to his recent behaviour in sueing the club, comments regarding harvey etc. However I get the feeling that some people have a genuine agenda against him which is the cause of numerous threads raised about him even a year and a half after he has gone. I dont think anyone is criticising Lyons drafting, just his gameplan. Perhaps you can point out the threads that are doing so? Or was it just an opening for yet another GT thread?

In regards to his gameplan, I would like to see Ross given a decent go as I think his game plan is sound, but the players do not have the skill/confidence level to execute at the moment.
As for the drafting I personally think its been bloody good. However i think comparing it to the 04/05 is very decieving.

1 - Drafting
06/07 were much better years for drafting. 06 was referred to as the best draft since the 2001 superdraft. On the other hand 04/05 were absolute poo. I looked them up on wikipedia and there is no one of note outside of the top ten. So in this regard even the drafting of recycled players such as ackland, mggough, rix is understandable (dont forget we were desperate for a developed ruckman)

2 - Trading
Obviously Watts was a bad trade for pick 17, but consider that Darren pfeiffer who adelaide selected with that pick was also delisted by them without playing a game. In fact looking at the list of players still available in the draft at that time the next best player IMO was Sam Gilbert whom we ended up getting in the second round anyway. Lyon has done really well with trading, but a lot of it is due to good fortune. we were lucky that Micheal Gardiner was having personal issues and the weagles were willing to give him away cheap. Steven King was pretty much a gift from Geelong.

3 - Let it go
GT is not the coach anymore, give it a rest please!!!!!

[saintsRrising]

Unbelievable. You were wrong. If you won't admit it like a man, then fine. But just let it be.

About what Rodger???? What am I wrong about?


If you mean your accusation of me lying? I ignored that. As usual you offered no proof. I just take it as a sign these days of when you can't makea counter argument back and seek to distract instead.


And by the way I have on occasion on this forum admitted that I have been wrong....and have no problem doing so.

[saintsRrising]

I dont think anyone is criticising Lyons drafting, just his gameplan. Perhaps you can point out the threads that are doing so? !!!

Well one that comes to mind...

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... g&start=25

There have been others.


And as I said in that string I think all in all RL is doing a good job in this department.

[tweedaletomanning]

Why does Beveridge escape scrutiny? When has he delivered anything of note? Lack of resources?? Does he even have a say? What does he do anyway?

[cwrcyn]

MEHER BABA,

Words of wisdom indeed. The 2004 and 2005 drafts were utterly scheissenhausen, and very few clubs did well out of them. The jury is still out on all the recruits that have been selected during Lyon's tenure, so I'm a bit amused by some people's awe of Ross Lyon's recruiting for untried talent. Sure enough, he got us Gardiner and King, but that was one out of the blue.

As for Geelong, they had one crap year and Selwood fell into their lap, and they got Hawkins as a freebie through the F&S rule. Note that they also got Blake, Ablett, and Scarlett via the same rule. Take Selwood, Blake, Scarlett, Hawkins, and Ablett out of the mix, and they suddenly start to look a pretty good team intstead of a great one.

The criticisms I have of Thomas are in relation to his trade with Adelaide for Watts and the Barry Brooks debacle (how we could use Salopek now!). The rookie business was a tricky one, as the club had some salary cap pressure.

The proof is in the pudding, so let's wait until mid 2009 before we judge the recruiting prowess of the current regime.

[plugger66]

SR you are a poor mans B4E. Why start this post. At least he comes out and says he hates GT. You just start stupid posts about things that dont matter anymore. Its over Gt is gone. Lets compare StanAlves with malcolm blight. I am sure Blights players were better that we traded for but how did we go under him.

[rodgerfox]

Ahhh you show your true colours again when proven wrong. What the f*** does Williams vs GT have to do with anything FFS? He's gone!!!! Move on!! Jesus.

Who's scathing of Williams' record? Lying yet again??


.

You were...see your post above.

Hey...you raised it Rodger.

I just added in the extra PA players that had not be raised to make the comparisona valid one.

Another lie.

[rodgerfox]

Unbelievable. You were wrong. If you won't admit it like a man, then fine. But just let it be.

About what Rodger???? What am I wrong about?

"It''s a bit like how several posters (interestingly, mostly the same ones) would endlessly deride GT for certain actions which they are totally silent when Lyon does them, eg: Blake as a ruckman, the regular selection of unreliable or low skill players, the lack of any sort of plan B, etc., etc.

I've come to the conclusion that some of the extremely regular posters on here are like those fans you sometimes sit near at the footy who have an endless supply of criticism for most current players, the coaching staff and all aspects of the club unless we are winning by 6 goals or more.

The only reason that they are silent about Lyon is because many of them went so far out on a limb for so long about how wonderful he was going to be compared to GT. However, if you read their posts carefully, you can see that some of them are slowly positioning themselves to turn on Lyon when they feel ready (probably straight after the club sacks him and replaces him with a new coach whom these imbeciles can immediately elevate to the status of the new saviour).

The tragedy for more level-headed supporters is that we can see how Butterss and the previous board stuffed everything up completely during 2006-07 and are now lamenting that these monumental mistakes have quite possibly robbed us of a precious premiership or two.

We could see that the main reason that we didn't win flags in 2005 and 2006 was nothing to do with GT's failings as a coach or with our inability to copy the Swans' tedious game plan, but was almost entirely due to our appalling run with injuries.

We could see that the main factor in our injury problems was not the unfairly maligned Larcom or anything GT or any other human being had done, but was the fact that we played week in and week out on the Telstra Dome surface.

We could see that bringing in a new, inexperienced bunch of coaching staff with no background at the club, a game plan designed for a small, circular ground (ie, not the Dome or the MCG) and a large bunch of mercenary rejects from other clubs (count them: Birss, Gardi, M Clarke, Schneider, C Gardiner, Dempster and King) wasn't going to take us to "the next level".

I'm sick of arguing about it: it's just a damn shame, that's all."

[Apu]

I dont think anyone is criticising Lyons drafting, just his gameplan. Perhaps you can point out the threads that are doing so? !!!

Well one that comes to mind...

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... g&start=25

There have been others.


And as I said in that string I think all in all RL is doing a good job in this department.

You are kidding me right?? I looked at that thread at the vast majority of posts were along the line that its a pointless argument and its too early tell,certainly not the vicious attack on Ross Lyon that you have suggested. Even the original post begins with : "Before I start this post, I'm not critical of the Saints for drafting McEvoy."

a) not once was Ross Lyons name even mentioned in that thread
b) the one critical post that i found about our recruiting referred to the period between 2003 - 2007 which covered both GT and RL.

Please post a better example.

[saintsRrising]

Please post a better example.

How about just above where RogerFox is quoting MB??

and a large bunch of mercenary rejects from other clubs (count them: Birss, Gardi, M Clarke, Schneider, C Gardiner, Dempster and King

[vacuous space]

I am not sure why you are so scathing of William's record in this period.

Port brought in 21 new faces to the senior list between 04 and 06. That's more than half of their list. Out of those 21, six of them managed to get a game for the GF and none of them were major contributors. Out of those six, three were recycled and two were 'rejects', as you like to put it. I'm not sure what's to like about Port's list management other than the fact they've done a lot of it. Their core players are almost all over 25 and have a GF medal somewhere.

[Apu]

Please post a better example.

How about just above where RogerFox is quoting MB??

and a large bunch of mercenary rejects from other clubs (count them: Birss, Gardi, M Clarke, Schneider, C Gardiner, Dempster and King

Well considering that the basis of of your argument is that other threads are created bagging Ross Lyons Trading and Drafting I dont think using a post from the current thread really cuts it

Furthermore if you start an unfair Anti-GT thread you will always get a equally unfair Pro-GT reply.

[saintsRrising]

Well considering that the basis of of your argument is that other threads are created bagging Ross Lyons Trading and Drafting I dont think using a post from the current thread really cuts it .

Pardon?????

I suggest you go back and read the OP again.

"I read in various strings that the knives our out for Lyon for his drafting with accussations of topping-up, poor list mangement etc etc. "
That is a big difference from what you said.

Secondly...the post referred to was not actually in the current thread originally...RogerFox cut and post it from another earlier string. So it is from another string.

Furthermore if you start an unfair Anti-GT thread you will always get a equally unfair Pro-GT reply.

I have no problem getting replies back. This is a Forum after all..not a blogsite.


But why is it unfair???? I made reference to differences in draft pick...and yes as you say there are differences in quality of drafts but how many AFL clubs in that two year period only produced only 1 AFL player?

Such a replacement rate from 2 years, nt matter if pooer years, is not the sign of a healthy club.

Is one AFL player per two year period an acceptable rate to you?

[rodgerfox]

Such a replacement rate from 2 years, nt matter if pooer years, is not the sign of a healthy club.

Is one AFL player per two year period an acceptable rate to you?

I thought you created a thread to defend criticism of Lyon's recruitment??

What does a 2 year period when GT was in charge have to do with it?


"It''s a bit like how several posters (interestingly, mostly the same ones) would endlessly deride GT for certain actions which they are totally silent when Lyon does them, eg: Blake as a ruckman, the regular selection of unreliable or low skill players, the lack of any sort of plan B, etc., etc.

I've come to the conclusion that some of the extremely regular posters on here are like those fans you sometimes sit near at the footy who have an endless supply of criticism for most current players, the coaching staff and all aspects of the club unless we are winning by 6 goals or more.

The only reason that they are silent about Lyon is because many of them went so far out on a limb for so long about how wonderful he was going to be compared to GT. However, if you read their posts carefully, you can see that some of them are slowly positioning themselves to turn on Lyon when they feel ready (probably straight after the club sacks him and replaces him with a new coach whom these imbeciles can immediately elevate to the status of the new saviour).

The tragedy for more level-headed supporters is that we can see how Butterss and the previous board stuffed everything up completely during 2006-07 and are now lamenting that these monumental mistakes have quite possibly robbed us of a precious premiership or two.

We could see that the main reason that we didn't win flags in 2005 and 2006 was nothing to do with GT's failings as a coach or with our inability to copy the Swans' tedious game plan, but was almost entirely due to our appalling run with injuries.

We could see that the main factor in our injury problems was not the unfairly maligned Larcom or anything GT or any other human being had done, but was the fact that we played week in and week out on the Telstra Dome surface.

We could see that bringing in a new, inexperienced bunch of coaching staff with no background at the club, a game plan designed for a small, circular ground (ie, not the Dome or the MCG) and a large bunch of mercenary rejects from other clubs (count them: Birss, Gardi, M Clarke, Schneider, C Gardiner, Dempster and King) wasn't going to take us to "the next level".

I'm sick of arguing about it: it's just a damn shame, that's all."

[saintsRrising]

the one critical post that i found about our recruiting referred to the period between 2003 - 2007 which covered both GT and RL..

By post...I assume you mean string or OP...and not post?



Perhaps you and I also use different terminolgy? To me any reply is a post...as well as the OP.

A string is all posts....in that "string".

The OP or orinating post is the first post ina string.


And as to whether they cover both of GT and RL..I do not see that as relevant as rare indeed would there be a string exclusively on one discussing such isues where someone does not raise both names.

[saintsRrising]

I am not sure why you are so scathing of William's record in this period.

Port brought in 21 new faces to the senior list between 04 and 06. That's more than half of their list. Out of those 21, six of them managed to get a game for the GF and none of them were major contributors. Out of those six, three were recycled and two were 'rejects', as you like to put it. I'm not sure what's to like about Port's list management other than the fact they've done a lot of it. Their core players are almost all over 25 and have a GF medal somewhere.

And in that period they produced more AFL footballers than we did.

As you would know VS as you and I have had friendly debates in the past I am not a big fan of getting "rejects" from other clubs as per our previous detailed exchanges.

However at present I would estimate that RL's gains of last year are proving me wrong. His cost of aquistion has been very low though.



There are some on this forum who try and paint me as 100% against GT and 100% for RL.

Neither is correct.

I have my own views on things (for example 2 talls rather than 3 in the forward line).

I post on each issue as I see it....and am always willing to put up discussion on my views and opinions.


And whether RL fails or not...his hiring is completely seperate from GT's firing.

[saintsRrising]

I thought you created a thread to defend criticism of Lyon's recruitment??

No I creaed a thread to discuss his recruiting.

What does a 2 year period when GT was in charge have to do with it?

It is called context.

[saintsRrising]

"It''s a bit like how several posters (interestingly, mostly the same ones) would endlessly deride GT for certain actions which they are totally silent when Lyon does them, eg: Blake as a ruckman, the regular selection of unreliable or low skill players, the lack of any sort of plan B, etc., etc.

Rodge if you are going to SPAM a string with this...you could at least acknowledge the original poster that you are cut and pasting from.


I have replied to MB in other strings when he has directed a post at me or my comments.

[vacuous space]

And in that period they produced more AFL footballers than we did.

Hardly a shock. They had more recruits than tried senior players. We were (and still are) the other way around. It's tough to get a game here, and I'd suggest that a lot of the youngsters who have been tried at Port wouldn't have had the same opportunities here. Over that period we picked up young guys who we thought could compete for spots. Some did, some didn't, most are gone now.

I am not a big fan of getting "rejects" from other clubs as per our previous detailed exchanges.

For the most part I'd agree. I don't mind getting the players, but I'd rather not give up as much as we did in trades. I don't like using ND picks on AFL level players either (Callaghan, Ackland, McGough, Ferguson, Gehrig). Again, I don't mind getting the players, but use the PSD. I'm hoping that with more money being spent on recruiting this year and beyond, we'll see much better value out of our ND picks.

There are some on this forum who try and paint me as 100% against GT and 100% for RL.

Any time you bring up GT, it looks like you're making excuses for RL. Fact is, RL has one of the most experienced lists in the AFL and has more 50-gamers at his disposal than any other coach. The high-end talent is definitely there. I don't think there's any excuse for RL not to perform.

[saintsRrising]

RL has one of the most experienced lists in the AFL and has more 50-gamers at his disposal than any other coach.


The high-end talent is definitely there. I don't think there's any excuse for RL not to perform.

100% agree in terms of we should be doing better than we are....and as I have posted in other strings I thing RL needs to get more out of his "better" players than he currently consistently achieves.

And as I also posted in another string I think RL...and the offensive (ie when we have possession of the ball) gameplan that he would like to have in operation is really hurt by the fact that he does not have his runners in good form at present.

*Gram
*Fiora -dropped
*X patchy
*Joey patchy
*Dal... more good than bad, but lacking consistency

He really needs to find a way to get more out of his ball cariers to break the lines. Without such run, winning games is going to be very hard work.