We're not sydney: Lyon

[plugger66]

He's really dining out on that last 11 games last season.

Look at the draw Ross and the teams we are scoring heavily against.


Anyhow it's clear everyone other then Ross is wrong.

St Kilda supporters think we are playing a negative gameplan.
Opposition supporters think we are playing a negative gameplan.
Media commentators think we are playing a negative gameplan.
Opposition teams think we are playing a negative gameplan.

And most importantly . . .

Our players think we are playing a negative gameplan.


But hey, who am I to argue with Ross.

Apparantly we're playing attacking footy!!!

Jeffery,Jeffery....your coming out lecturing me on english....and you spell APPARENTLY like that...

You silly man.

Lets get back on topic (stay focussed Jeff)

We - thats all of us bar you - dont really know what Lyons game plan is. What we do know Jeff is that both the captain AND coach have publicly stated we are not implementing the game plan that is being instructed.

Now I understand thats not good enough for you Jeff - cause your an "action man" so therefore ewed (that ones for you..) rather listen to opposition supporters on Bigfooty and pretend the coach/captain are involved in some sort of cover up/lie. Fair enough Jeff, it must be hard getting up each day with that paranoia following you everywhere.

Therefore Jeff, IF (lets assume Ross/Riewoldt arent liars for just a second... ) we havent produced a 4 qtr effort of the coaches desired game plan....how is it you can pass judgement on this yet - all you have is a bunch of poor results for a game plan that hasnt been implemented/followed?

Its really not that hard......even for you....is it?

BTW - I appreciate I dominate so much of your time you find yourself trawling through your Bigfooty archives (now there's some history/reading) to dig up irrelevant quotes......I am flattered

PS I sent the letter and received a response but thats for another day...

I have 2 questions have you seen how we play live and if you have what are we trying to do. I am very disappointed the way we play footy at the moment and I dont care if every player in the side says we not playing negative well they are not telling the truth.

Another question maybe just because RL says something is it the truth. X last year with the flu.

[Teflon]

I have 2 answers for those questions.

Yep Ive seen us live twice this year.

Are we playing negative footy at present - in patches yes in others no.

Is that the instructed game plan? - Coach/Captain and players are saying no...

Now I have a question for you.

Do you KNOW Ross Lyon AND Nick Riewoldt are lying when they say this isnt the style of footy we want to play?

I too am frustrated by what Ive seen. Im frustrated we can dominate Geelongs midfield and negate many of their "mid stars" yet in 10 mins lose a game by 7 goals. Im frustrated that we dominate the in form Western Bulldogs and look absolutely awesome doing it - then disintegrate? Im frustared we belt a useless Essendon in the 2nd qtr , lead by 51 pts only to stop and allow them a run of 5 goals????

Are you suggesting those bursts of explosive, good to watch football are not what Lyon would want?

[plugger66]

I have 2 answers for those questions.

Yep Ive seen us live twice this year.

Are we playing negative footy at present - in patches yes in others no.

Is that the instructed game plan? - Coach/Captain and players are saying no...

Now I have a question for you.

Do you KNOW Ross Lyon AND Nick Riewoldt are lying when they say this isnt the style of footy we want to play?

I too am frustrated by what Ive seen. Im frustrated we can dominate Geelongs midfield and negate many of their "mid stars" yet in 10 mins lose a game by 7 goals. Im frustrated that we dominate the in form Western Bulldogs and look absolutely awesome doing it - then disintegrate? Im frustared we belt a useless Essendon in the 2nd qtr , lead by 51 pts only to stop and allow them a run of 5 goals????

Are you suggesting those bursts of explosive, good to watch football are not what Lyon would want?

What I am suggesting is once the opposition have time to regroup we cannot change our style. You pick 2 quarters of attacking play. There were 6 other quarters in those games of negative footy so maybe that is how we play.

Lastly would you expect Rooy to come out and say something different to RL because I wouldnt.

[Teflon]

I have 2 answers for those questions.

Yep Ive seen us live twice this year.

Are we playing negative footy at present - in patches yes in others no.

Is that the instructed game plan? - Coach/Captain and players are saying no...

Now I have a question for you.

Do you KNOW Ross Lyon AND Nick Riewoldt are lying when they say this isnt the style of footy we want to play?

I too am frustrated by what Ive seen. Im frustrated we can dominate Geelongs midfield and negate many of their "mid stars" yet in 10 mins lose a game by 7 goals. Im frustrated that we dominate the in form Western Bulldogs and look absolutely awesome doing it - then disintegrate? Im frustared we belt a useless Essendon in the 2nd qtr , lead by 51 pts only to stop and allow them a run of 5 goals????

Are you suggesting those bursts of explosive, good to watch football are not what Lyon would want?

What I am suggesting is once the opposition have time to regroup we cannot change our style. You pick 2 quarters of attacking play. There were 6 other quarters in those games of negative footy so maybe that is how we play.

Lastly would you expect Rooy to come out and say something different to RL because I wouldnt.

I dont believe Riewoldt or the coach are lying - full stop. I think its easy to say that and it perpetuates some sort of conspiracy theory/cover up - I dont buy that.

To be truthful Im not sure any of us supporters know how we play at present but (and Im guessing here) Id tip its closer to those attacking qtrs model than the drivel served up in the other 6.

I agree with your view on changing game style after opposition sides have regrouped (see Geelong). Actually, maybe this IS the game plan problem - players simply dont instinctively KNOW when to go defensively and when to take off the shackles...maybe thats to much to ask an Ross is asking who knows?

I do recall, as I mentioned here a few weeks ago, that a mad Geelong supporter mate of mine suggested that when St Kilda were on top in our recent game Geelong were instructed to simply play a "zone" - hold the footy up, re group, starve us of ball and when the tempo had dropped to their liking attack. Interestingly to me was he said he heard Kelly instructing others players to simply "hold the pattern" when we had the ball out of defence - in his view at this point it wasnt about attacking St Kilda...it was about holding us. Can it be Geelong are that good they simply know when to put up shutters and when to open it up and run and we simply dont??

It was, remember, a "burst" from Geelong that ended that game effectively.

[plugger66]

Maybe that is right with Geelong but what about Footscray and how do you explain the crap served up last week and the first week against Sydney. And finally why do 99% of people say we play a defensive style of footy.

[Teflon]

Maybe that is right with Geelong but what about Footscray and how do you explain the crap served up last week and the first week against Sydney. And finally why do 99% of people say we play a defensive style of footy.

Not sure Plugger - how do we know this problem is even related to game plan and not related to mental attitude ? OR as M Voss put it - a selfish playing group who dont play for each other?

Lost of reasons.

I could attribute the above theory to the Dogs game easily. We smacked them early - they couldnt hold us. They started to smack us out of the middle - we couldnt apply the brakes, regroup and reload to run and attack. In short we could not, as you put it, adapt game plan.

Regardless what I do know is this season we have not produced a 4 qtr game yet. Truth is, we should not have beaten Sydney in the end - we got lucky. Probably should be 2-4 really. You cant play 1 or 2 qtrs (against cr@p sides its ok) good sides hurt you.

Do sides only play 1 or 2 qtrs of footy cause they have "bad' or negative game plans OR do they do this cause they lack the mental strength/confidence to carry the game plan out for a full 4 qtrs? OR is it a case where Ross hasnt got the message across clearly to the players?

[JeffDunne]

Teffers, does it really matter what the plan is?

I mean really, every coach designs a game plan to win football matches. Just because that's the intention, it doesn't mean that's the result.

I'm sure Lyon believes in his game plan.

I'd hope the players do too.

But if he can't implement it, they can't execute it, then I ask, what good is it? I've seen nothing from Lyon's coaching to suggest he can get the best out of the players individually or as a group. I don't doubt he knows football but I have serious reservations about his ability to lead a team.

Ultimately though, he's not GT, so I guess that's good enough for you.

[Teflon]

Teffers, does it really matter what the plan is?

I mean really, every coach designs a game plan to win football matches. Just because that's the intention, it doesn't mean that's the result.

I'm sure Lyon believes in his game plan.

I'd hope the players do too.

But if he can't implement it, they can't execute it, then I ask, what good is it? I've seen nothing from Lyon's coaching to suggest he can get the best out of the players individually or as a group. I don't doubt he knows football but I have serious reservations about his ability to lead a team.

Ultimately though, he's not GT, so I guess that's good enough for you.

Hi Jeff nice to see you again.

Game plan matters in the context of your original response which suggested that we have a negative game plan because thats whats been produced and said to be the case by supporters etc etc

My point is simply - do we honestly know enough about our true game style to label it "negative" IF what your seeing IS NOT the desired game plan???

I dont believe Lyon is trying to make us Sydney and I dont think he wants us to not attack. However, I do believe we have not seen 1 4qtr effort this year and that tells me we havent therefore seen a properly executed game plan yet.

Im not prepared to write Lyon off as a "leader" as quickly you are. I also do not believe this team is the "superstar side on paper" we are sold and that this side has definately moved on from its short "glory" days of 2004. You need to look no further than the 2008 Luke Ball to see that.

Lyon has work to do and IMO it starts with:

1. ensuring the game plan is understood so players can execute
2. improve the St Kilda list, remove the deadwood and increase both run/carry and skills (especially foot skills).

You were doing so wellas a grown up till you went with the Grant Thomas jibe again. Such a shame.

[JeffDunne]

I really don't care what it's designed to do - I care about what it's achieving.

It staggers me anyone can have faith in Lyon's plan based on what we've seen over the past 28 matches. Even when we win it's painful to watch.

If it's the list that's the problem then I'd suggest Lyon as a talent evaluator is even worse than Lyon as head coach. You don't draft/trade for players like King, Gardiner, Gehrig, etc. if you're not having a tilt at the title. We went into this season thinking we were a shot and it's a cop out to now be blaming the standard of the list.

And Teffers, spare me the patronising bullsh*t.

It's as plain as dog nuts why you and the other GT haters on this board defend Lyon's mediocrity.

[Teflon]

I really don't care what it's designed to do - I care about what it's achieving.

It staggers me anyone can have faith in Lyon's plan based on what we've seen over the past 28 matches. Even when we win it's painful to watch.

If it's the list that's the problem then I'd suggest Lyon as a talent evaluator is even worse than Lyon as head coach. You don't draft/trade for players like King, Gardiner, Gehrig, etc. if you're not having a tilt at the title. We went into this season thinking we were a shot and it's a cop out to now be blaming the standard of the list.

And Teffers, spare me the patronising bullsh*t.

It's as plain as dog nuts why you and the other GT haters on this board defend Lyon's mediocrity.

How does that sort of abuse still survive in this new age of Saintsational rules - Im amazed....

Regardless, I'll refrain from stooping to the gutter and reiterate the topic.

You state that you dont care what Lyons plan is designed to do - you care about what its achieving. But how can it be achieving anything if it hasnt (as the players and Captain have come out and said) been implemented and executed effectively once this season?

How do you honestly know what Lyons game plan can produce if it hasnt been "used" yet? How do you make such a judgement Jeff? The only thing I can think of is that YOU know what the game plan is - so please outline it for us mere mortals Jeffery.

If you believe Ross Lyon has failed as a leader and is incapable of instructing this team to play his style of football - then come out and call for him to be removed. Why slag off the coach, not take a stance and then when things go well or we win a game jump back on the bandwagon??...get a view and hold on Jeffery...

In terms of the list - how can it not be a part of the problem? Are you suggesting win/loss is all determined by game plan alone? Are you also suggesting that in 1.5yrs as coach Lyon is solely responsible for the entire current playing list?......hhmmm..a little naive dont you think?

I agree we went into this season thinking we were a shot - we also went in with a previous ruck "hole" that had not been adequateky addressed in 5 years under Grant Thomas. Are you suggesting Ross Lyon made a mistake for drafting Gardiner and then taling King for pick 90 odd in the draft?....hmm......a tad rash I think youll find your comments are and once again based on a desire for an argument and less about arguing with logic Id think.

For the last time, why you fail comprehend I actually fully understand...., but I will try again. I dont "hate" Grant Thomas - early in his tenure he was the right man for our club. End of his tenure his time was up and he, along with some other egotists, had to be removed....and Id suggest the fact he hasnt been snapped up by any other AFL club might tell you what the football industry thinks of his modus operandi in general.

Focus Jeff......stay focussed.

[The OtherThommo]

As a 35 year member, supporter, devotee, I'll relate an epiphanous moment. 20 odd minutes into the last quarter against the Dogs I left. Rarely do it, but I was struck. I was overwhelmed by a sense of pointlessness. I have been waiting, like so many others, for the "Great Generation" to step into the limelight. Kosi, Ball, Dal Santo, Clarke, Fisher (not Sam), Maguire, Gram etc, those 23 -27 year olds to stamp themselves in the sport. And what happened? They freakin' disappeared.

I began considering the prospect that these blokes may not actually be good enough. And, therein, lies the problem - the blokes who should be assuming the leadership roles, as their prime years descend upon them, ain't.

I'm scared that I've overrated a group of players, whose history is littered with tell tale signs, that simply does not do enough. Ball butchering ain't Lyon's fault, when Kosi let's a regulation o/h mark from Banger's hard work slip through his fingers at centrefield at AAMI last week, it's soft. Jesus, it's shattering, but maybe we got this group wrong.

It's up to them, not Lyon, not Rob Harvey, not Fraser - these blokes in their so called prime need to show us they can actually play, consistently.

God help this football club if they don't.

[JeffDunne]

How does that sort of abuse still survive in this new age of Saintsational rules - Im amazed....

I don't know - you're still here.

Regardless, I'll refrain from stooping to the gutter and reiterate the topic.

Again, spare me the patronising B/S.

Teffers you have a reputation for good reason.

You state that you dont care what Lyons plan is designed to do - you care about what its achieving. But how can it be achieving anything if it hasnt (as the players and Captain have come out and said) been implemented and executed effectively once this season?

Do you realise how ridiculous your defence of Lyon sounds?

How do you honestly know what Lyons game plan can produce if it hasnt been "used" yet? How do you make such a judgement Jeff? The only thing I can think of is that YOU know what the game plan is - so please outline it for us mere mortals Jeffery.

You really are a stupid SOB aren't you?

Results Teffers - talk is cheap.

Based on what I've seen the past 28 games, the lack of pressure, the lack of system up forward, players losing their opponent, etc. I'm sure isn't by design. The world however is full for f*** ups that weren't designed to be f*** ups. I'm sure you'd understand that concept.

If you believe Ross Lyon has failed as a leader and is incapable of instructing this team to play his style of football - then come out and call for him to be removed. Why slag off the coach, not take a stance and then when things go well or we win a game jump back on the bandwagon??...get a view and hold on Jeffery...

Unlike you Teffers, I support a football club and not individuals.

I have already said that if we are still playing this way come round 22 - Lyon should be shown the door.

In terms of the list - how can it not be a part of the problem? Are you suggesting win/loss is all determined by game plan alone? Are you also suggesting that in 1.5yrs as coach Lyon is solely responsible for the entire current playing list?......hhmmm..a little naive dont you think?

Did I say that?

Jeez could you try any harder defending the indefensible?

I agree we went into this season thinking we were a shot - we also went in with a previous ruck "hole" that had not been adequateky addressed in 5 years under Grant Thomas. Are you suggesting Ross Lyon made a mistake for drafting Gardiner and then taling King for pick 90 odd in the draft?....hmm......a tad rash I think youll find your comments are and once again based on a desire for an argument and less about arguing with logic Id think.

Gardiner was a complete and utter waste of time.

King was worth the effort this year IF we were challenging.

There were other ruckman available on the market. Look at the Bulldogs pickups vs ours.

For the last time, why you fail comprehend I actually fully understand....,

Christ I'm glad you do.

I dont "hate" Grant Thomas

That's a lie.

Should I quote some of your more colourful hate-speak about the man to prove it?

You not only hate him - you're obsessed by him.

- early in his tenure he was the right man for our club. End of his tenure his time was up and he, along with some other egotists, had to be removed....and Id suggest the fact he hasnt been snapped up by any other AFL club might tell you what the football industry thinks of his modus operandi in general.

I could debate this point however who cares?

He's gone.

Lyon has to face the music Teffers - not GT.

[BigMart]

proof is in the pudding......


I don't listen to jack that comes out of moorabbin, I don't have to, because I am not blind and can come to a very simple conclusion....

We defend first......the game plan is about limiting opponents.....accountability is Ross Lyon's favourite term...

They shouldn't treat supporters like idiots, and give them some credit....maybe we wil then return the favour....

Not all of us are GULLIBLE

[rodgerfox]

Im frustrated we can dominate Geelongs midfield and negate many of their "mid stars" yet in 10 mins lose a game by 7 goals.

So even when we're adhering to the plan, and dominating, we're still negating?

Isn't that a negative style of play then?

[rodgerfox]

Lyon has work to do and IMO it starts with:

1. ensuring the game plan is understood so players can execute
2. improve the St Kilda list, remove the deadwood and increase both run/carry and skills (especially foot skills).

Starts with???

When do you think he's planning to start on this stuff?

[Dis Believer]

Can all and sundry do me one small favour - if you're going to debate something, drop the references to "everyone says" or "99% of people believe".

For a considerable time 100% of people believed vehemently that the earth was flat - didn't make it so.

For centuries, all mankind believed lightning was sent from the gods - not quite accurate.

Remember folks - concensus doesn't mean correct.