Riewldt - very interesting..

[barks4eva]

(keeping up with the moronic theme of the thread)

moronic themes are what helps you splatter your batter, are your stock and trade, jeffrey you are the patron saint of moronic themes, behind dodgy of course

[Saints Premiers 2008]

(keeping up with the moronic theme of the thread)

moronic themes are what helps you splatter your batter, are your stock and trade, jeffrey you are the patron saint of moronic themes, behind dodgy of course

people like you are not successful in life barks...

[barks4eva]

I thought our president's comments on Ross were interesting too.

Ross has been put on notice.

As I don't read newspapers I havn't seen this, where was it said, when was it said and what exactly was said?

Can you please provide a direct quote?

[saintsRrising]

. It is not that i don't believe everything they say it is just that i take it with a grain of salt because clubs dont' want to hurt their image.

Nothing wrong with a grain of salt....

....but in this case I personally believe there is substance.


If Roo just wanted to spin....he could have said many other things...

[Lennon]

Barks can you for once make up your mind regarding this team! Not long ago this list was very good capable of great things but they had a dud coach in charge. Fast forward 2 years later with the new coaching panel and it is now the players who are crap and it is still all of GT's fault.

Seems to be the gist of it.

[markp]

This is so funny. And SS at it's finest.

Under Thomas, he had no Plan B. A weak game plan that revolved around 'kick it to Roo'. When that plan was challenged, he had nothing. The best list in the comp but no nous to utilise it.

Under Lyon, his plan is fine. It's good. It works for 2 quarters a week. But it's the players that ignore it. The players are the problem.


To me, the exact same issues exist that existed under Thomas. We have a mentally fragile list that lacks on-field leadership.

All game plans work when you have your best players available to carry them out, and they give 100% effort all the time.

That, I'm afraid to say, is a fact. There are no tricks or rabbits out of the hat.

I hope now, finally, those who argued this point with me now get it.

Thomas' game plan and style was unbeatable when our players gave 100%. Even with injury, 100% effort meant we won. And won well.

When we didn't give the effort - we lost and looked slow and one dimensional.

Sound familiar??

The only difference now, is that the list under Thomas took 2 years to learn his plan. There were glimpses in 02, and there were steep learning periods too (remember the uber flood game against Sydney?).

This list has only had 1.25 years to learn Lyon's plan. There are glimpses of it, and we look good. There are also glimpses of learning weeks.


Once the group learns the plan, and can consistently give 100% effort as a group, we'll be fine.


The biggest irony is the people in here who are defending the coach based on the fact that it's players who are aren't listening to him.

The irony is fantastic.

What makes you think it's the same people saying both things?

RL is not a divisive control freak who doesn't rate ruckmen...

It's Hamill we miss most, not GT.

Huh?

Did you even read my post????

Yup, you are implying that the same people who were accusing GT of having an inferior game plan are now giving RL the benefit of the doubt in this area, and saying it's the players not obeying the game plan that is the trouble... and that the problem with the team is basically the same now as it was then....

I think you are over-generalizing on the first count (hence my first point), and over-simplifying on the second (hence my second point)... My third point was not directed at you in particular (forgive me), but does support your lack of on-field leadership theory....

[JeffDunne]

I thought our president's comments on Ross were interesting too.

Ross has been put on notice.

As I don't read newspapers I havn't seen this, where was it said, when was it said and what exactly was said?

Can you please provide a direct quote?

Club president Greg Westaway is cautious to remain within his province of knowledge and not tread in football matters beyond his expertise, but he felt the football department would be reviewing how it was that the players had again strayed from instructions.

"It is a coaching thing and they are saying, 'Fellas, did we practise this at training? No, we didn't, so why are we doing this?' It is not a matter of getting used to something because they were playing well in the last half of last year and they should be used to the coach by now.

"They should know what he wants, so why (is it) not transferring? The pressure of the game makes people do things that they do automatically instead of following the plan," Westaway said. "The board's view is always we are going to back the coach 100% until we have got a reason not to back him and we don't have a reason not to do that at this stage. We are not over the moon because we are three and three; we would like to be better than that. But the sky has not fallen in.

"There's enough happening for us to say, well, maybe we should have another look at how we are going about this and I am sure that is what Ross will do."

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/s ... 61116.html

[asiu]

thought you were having an enforced holiday hawthorn boy ?

[starsign]

Is it possible that the game plan is an attacking one but impossible to implement successfully on a consistent basis?

this may be the key to it and we are missing the crux of the matter by over complicating it.....

maybe the skipper and coach are both telling the truth .....the game plan is an attacking one in principle or the primary objective

what if its REALY simple.....
ie our main objective 1 is to win the ball out of the center and kick it quickly into our forward line get a goal and come back and do it again and to continue to do so

BUT ....objective 2.... is if the opposition gets the ball from the center bounce or any other time thereafter, we all run down their end clog it up , and try and get posesssion then revert to objective 1

simple .... we saw it was working against Dogs and Cats from the 1st bounce .....


again

...

Is it possible that the game plan is an attacking one but impossible to implement successfully on a consistent basis?

then you see everyones telling the truth.... they are just not expanding on the Entire game plan , just giving the prime objective ....
wait for it ....because they dont want to give to much details about the rest of it ....like we would't want the opposition to know too much ....like port last week didnt expext a thing about how we were going to play (Cornes was only joking after the game) , but we just couldnt seem to execute option 1 and were stuck in option 2 most of the game

seems to simple I know but everybodys telling the truth , they're just not telling ALL

[matrix]

Club president Greg Westaway is cautious to remain within his province of knowledge and not tread in football matters beyond his expertise, but he felt the football department would be reviewing how it was that the players had again strayed from instructions.

"It is a coaching thing and they are saying, 'Fellas, did we practise this at training? No, we didn't, so why are we doing this?' It is not a matter of getting used to something because they were playing well in the last half of last year and they should be used to the coach by now.

"They should know what he wants, so why (is it) not transferring? The pressure of the game makes people do things that they do automatically instead of following the plan," Westaway said. "The board's view is always we are going to back the coach 100% until we have got a reason not to back him and we don't have a reason not to do that at this stage. We are not over the moon because we are three and three; we would like to be better than that. But the sky has not fallen in.

"There's enough happening for us to say, well, maybe we should have another look at how we are going about this and I am sure that is what Ross will do."

that actually clears a lot up.
had no idea that was said

[rodgerfox]

But Bolt4Eva, we have examples of the game plan working perfectly this year. So obviously it's not lack of ability to carry it out.

You're wrong. Again.

R U serious dodgyflog

Even teams that do not have the cattle can put together a great quarter and then turn to shyte because they cannot sustain it?

Carlton's first quarter against us, injury riddled Essendon in the third quarter against us.

It happens virtually every week, where a bottom side without the necessary cattle to be a top 4 side, play an inspired quarter where they take it up to the opposition

Even in the saintsational footy game against melbourne, they rocked up with young guns everywhere, while we looked like a rabble missing our better players.
It was obvious we would get absolutely pantsed, but in the first quarter we played with intensity and spirit and were trailing on the scorboard 6 goals to 4 and seemed to be right in it, knowing full well we were not.
After that we got pumped and after having kicked 4 goals in the first quarter we scored only 2 more goals for the rest of the game and lost by over 80 points.

Sides who lack the necessary cattle and certain player types can carry out a game plan, but only fleetingly, they cannot sustain it.

This is simply why we cannot sustain it, because we lack the cattle and certain player types which are now neccessary for the modern game.
Poor recruiting has consigned us to becoming mid table, ordinary, the new Richmond, when apparently it was all about building a decade of success

The only escape from this is to play kids, develop fresh young talent and bring them on quickly to help support the more elite players on our list who simply cannot carry the overabundance we currently have running around in our 22 of slow, unskilled, ineffective gop's.

Now back in your foxhole dodgy

Do you believe the best list wins the flag every year?

I don't.

Do Geelong suddenly have a 20 goal list better than the 2nd best team in the comp?

No.


The difference between the top 10 teams in terms of the physical football talent on their lists is minimal.

The major difference between being one of the top 10 teams and being the best is above the shoulders.

Even in your bizarre comparison between AFL footy and a scratch match at a local park, you backed up the point. When you came out with intensity and spirit you were in the game. When that dropped off, you lost. Lack of skill doesn't cause this. Fitness, concentration and the lack of ability to maintain spirit and intensity under pressure does.

That's the difference between us being back in the top 4 and being out of the 8 again.

Talent wise, we're fine. Better than alot. But it doesn't mean shiit unless your head is right.

This is why I've said our list is overrated. Not because we're not physical capable, but because we're mentally fragile. We've got all the skill required, just not the tough heads.

That's the difference between a good list and a great list. And the difference between and good team and a great team.

[saintsRrising]

Do you believe the best list wins the flag every year?

I don't.

Do Geelong suddenly have a 20 goal list better than the 2nd best team in the comp?

No.


The difference between the top 10 teams in terms of the physical football talent on their lists is minimal.

The major difference between being one of the top 10 teams and being the best is above the shoulders.

That's the difference between us being back in the top 4 and being out of the 8 again.

Talent wise, we're fine. Better than alot. But it doesn't mean shiit unless your head is right.

This is why I've said our list is overrated. Not because we're not physical capable, but because we're mentally fragile. We've got all the skill required, just not the tough heads.

That's the difference between a good list and a great list. And the difference between and good team and a great team.

I actually agree with most of that....


While we all might bitch and moan about other clubs...if you look at say the Cat's, Roos, Pies and Swnas for example you will see 4 contrasting game styles.

So there is not one path to winning games in tems of tactics or game plans, or even personelle...though you need at least a ok list as a given to make the 8...and a good list to win a GF.

But one aspect that each in common have is their workrate and committment to team football.

It is this which is currently most lacking in the players.


If this can be notched up we will still have a good year.....but if it continues to ebb and flow we will not.


We know it...and the club knows it....the players and coach know it. One of Roos comments that Roo mentioned on the Voss article was that the Saints had basically been talking about a lot of what Vos's article was on over the couple of weeks prior.

Roo's B&F bus has left..but no everyone is on it yet. Will they clamber on board??????

[markp]

The talent and the resources are there... it comes down to a lack of confidence and cohesion.

Hopefully the causes of this are fairly benign and can be addressed... soonish.

[clobba]

well what else is he gonna say?

is it just a coincidence that we were the lowest scoring team last year?

is it just a coincidence that we are about the 4th lowest scoring team this year?

i

Ok...have it your way...RL's gameplan is an ultra defensive chipping one.

The Captain of the club has just come out and said that our game plan is an attacking one.

So if you are right I guess the s*** will hit the fan tomorrow when RL confronts the Captain for mistating what our gameplan is??????????????????

Well fair enough hell I am willing even wanting to be convinced, because if I can be convinced its all the players fault and we really are playing an attacking game then I can just ignore all those inconvenient stats trying to convince me my team wont attack for crap.
Thats it I can now hold my head up high because my teams Captain has said they are really trying to play attacking footy.....unfortunately they seem to keep getting confused about which end exactly they are supposed to be attacking?

[clobba]

and lastly, no player in the entire AFL says what the really, they ALL tow the company line (except for Aker, and we all saw how long he lasted after critisising the coach) so i never take much notice of what they say on some subjects

So if every player comes out and tells you that the 'gameplan' is an attacking one, you are going to disbelieve them all.
They will all be lying becuae you know better?
Just wanted to be sure I'm not mistaken on your position?

Our Club Captain just went on national TV and said what you (and many others on here) have been saying about our 'gameplan' is inaccurate and your response is, you know you're correct and no player will tell you what is really going on?

That would make Roo's comments part of the conspiracy by all involved at the Club?

Forget about sacking the Coach, We should sack everyone at the Club from the President on down because they are obviously all part of this conspiracy and we members are entitled to have our wishes adhered to.

I've read some hysterical nonsense in the past couple of days on here but this one just about takes the cake.

Dud, you're posts are normally much better than this. Please just sit back and think about what you have posted.

You have just intimated that our Captain is a liar and that all players will lie rather than tell us the truth.

Lier might be a bit harsh...maybe propaganda minister but from an outside perspective I see no factual observable evidence to show that we are playing an "Attacking" brand of footy, though as many people have said its only his second year I am sure after we watch it 44 times the players will have finally grasped it...and then be able to start working on their skills for next season now that they have finally absorbed the intricacies of "The Plan"

[clobba]

I still think GT knows exactly whats going on,he's not going to repeat what he learns verbatim ,not when he can be more subtle than that and still get a reaction.....

He can see the difference in the way they are playing now in comparison to the way they played when he was coach,he didn't have them all running from one end of the ground to the other............

He had forwards who stayed forward and kicked goals,sure he made his mistakes but he did a lot right at least for a couple of years,i'm sure he learnt how to analyse a game in his time as coach...

Somebody talks to him...for sure.....

I dont. Media whore.

LOL yeah but I rarely read and post even less so here and even from those brief occassions I would have to say that your views re: GT are possibly somewhat "fervent"?

[saintsRrising]

and we really are playing an attacking game then I can just ignore all those inconvenient stats trying to convince me my team wont attack for crap.
:

Not need to ignore the stats...as they do yes reflect what has occurred.

....but maybe this is pedantic of me...

But we are meant to be playing a more attacking game plan....but are not always executing it that way..


This is why the stats you refer to.....not to mention what we can see.....show that we are not attacking enough, nor directly enough for we are not.

The coach and captain have both acknowledged that the team is not playing attacking enough football....but they want it to be.

From this I take heart.

[borderbarry]

I have to agree with Barks4eva's comments on the prvious page about team selection. Our yungsters should be given a go (not all at once though).
It looks like Raph Clarke may be findinga bit of orm at last, but not as a defender.
I am worried this week that our selectors will drop Armo after him having less than half a game and still doing better than the likes of L.Fisher and co. We need to make about five changes, but I am sure they will only make as many as returning players warrant.

[barks4eva]

I have to agree with Barks4eva's comments on the prvious page about team selection. Our yungsters should be given a go (not all at once though).
It looks like Raph Clarke may be findinga bit of orm at last, but not as a defender.
I am worried this week that our selectors will drop Armo after him having less than half a game and still doing better than the likes of L.Fisher and co. We need to make about five changes, but I am sure they will only make as many as returning players warrant.

that's the biscuit

seriously we do not have the players capable of taking us the next step at the minute, they are just the facts

you cannot carry an overabundance of gop's who are slow, unskilled, mentally soft and dumb decision maker's and we have them by the truckload

It's time to bring in some kids and develop new talent, this is the quickest way forward

Continually selecting players like Blake, Birss and even L.Fisher is consigning us to being a mid table team for years to come

Delist Gehrig, promote Eddy

borderbarry, I agree with your comments regarding Armitage

Providing his effort is there, I would play him all season, fastest way for him to learn

McEvoy just play the kid and give him a taste, even if he's raw

Geary, Eddy, Allen, Ferguson, give them a taste also, perhaps not all at once as bb said but just do it

Considering though imho there are at least three changes I'd make before even blinking, I'd be weighing up who are the three most ready for selection this week and fair dinkum be giving them a go

Your Blake's, Birss's, Fiora's, L.Fisher's are taking the bus nowhere fast and as a result of positions being occupied by these types of players it is hindering the development of the team as a whole

I havn't given up on R.Clarke, throw him into the forward line and give him a chance to rediscover himself in a totally different role, sometimes this can be the making of players

but continuing on with the same old, same old, players and structures is only going to keep this mid table combination , mid table for the THIRD YEAR running

what more evidence do people need, we are ordinary

comparing the 2008 team to the 2004 model is like comparing Paris Hilton with Mother Theresa

[The_Dud]

comparing the 2008 team to the 2004 model is like comparing Paris Hilton with Mother Theresa

exactly, Mother Theresa was more evil and caused more suffering than Paris ever will....

[LENNY LEADS THE WAY]

comparing the 2008 team to the 2004 model is like comparing Paris Hilton with Mother Theresa

exactly, Mother Theresa was more evil and caused more suffering than Paris ever will....

Obviously u haven't seen Paris's tape now watching that is suffering

[Badlands]

It's time to bring in some kids and develop new talent, this is the quickest way forward

Continually selecting players like Blake, Birss and even L.Fisher is consigning us to being a mid table team for years to come

Delist Gehrig, promote Eddy

borderbarry, I agree with your comments regarding Armitage

Providing his effort is there, I would play him all season, fastest way for him to learn

McEvoy just play the kid and give him a taste, even if he's raw

Geary, Eddy, Allen, Ferguson, give them a taste also, perhaps not all at once as bb said but just do it

Considering though imho there are at least three changes I'd make before even blinking, I'd be weighing up who are the three most ready for selection this week and fair dinkum be giving them a go

Your Blake's, Birss's, Fiora's, L.Fisher's are taking the bus nowhere fast and as a result of positions being occupied by these types of players it is hindering the development of the team as a whole

I havn't given up on R.Clarke, throw him into the forward line and give him a chance to rediscover himself in a totally different role, sometimes this can be the making of players

I fully support the sentiment of those comments but I'm not prepared to write off the season just yet at 3-3 and frankly, I'm just not sure there's enough potential in the 2nds to warrant promotion to the top flight yet. I know there's always the "you'll never know till you throw them in the deep end" argument, but blooding kids who aren't ready for to make the jump yet is almost raising the white flag isn't it? At 3-3?

I said in another thread that we need people in the seconds to be exerting more pressure on those who aren't playing up to scratch so they have to fight for their positions each week, but at the end of the day I'm just not convinced some of these guys are up to it just yet. I think we should persevere for another fortnight, if we get to 3-5 then yep, virtually no position (including that of coach) should be considered safe.

I hope Raph makes it back too, but he had to drop back for a while. His confidence was absolutely shot, as someone alluded to in another thread his first movement when he gained possession (assuming he didn't double fist it away) was one of hesitation. Just needs to get some belief back and trust his instincts.

Anyway I'm praying for (and expecting) a vast improvement this week.
I hope I'm right.

[Teflon]

WE ARE INSTRUCTED TO GO OUT AND PLAY AN ATTACKING STYLE OF GAME WHICH WE ARE NOR EXECUTING"

Could it be as simple as Lyon cant get the best out of these players?

Say what you like about GT...he had them playing as a team.

A good coach will always get the best out of his players.

I hear the word 'confidence' is down a lot...why?

Why arent our players confident?

I see hesitation and confusion out there...i see frustration and anger...i dont see a unified team...now who's to blame for this?

This team knows how to win games...its something else thats stuffing their heads up IMO.

Im not sure in 2006 GT got the best out of our players - we were sliding then for mine and everytime a team flooded we were knackered.

I think its easy to look back at GT as the "messiah" who could communicate with all and sundry and actually forget the teams performances especially in the later part of his coaching (by which time Ball, Maguire were shot, Gehrig/Harvs older and what was really being brought through like Malthouse is consistently doing at Collingwood AND extracting the best from a supposed inferior list?)

Lyons not blameless for sure but these problems go further than Ross Lyons 1.5yrs of coaching to me.

[Teflon]

This is so funny. And SS at it's finest.

Under Thomas, he had no Plan B. A weak game plan that revolved around 'kick it to Roo'. When that plan was challenged, he had nothing. The best list in the comp but no nous to utilise it.

Under Lyon, his plan is fine. It's good. It works for 2 quarters a week. But it's the players that ignore it. The players are the problem.


To me, the exact same issues exist that existed under Thomas. We have a mentally fragile list that lacks on-field leadership.

All game plans work when you have your best players available to carry them out, and they give 100% effort all the time.

That, I'm afraid to say, is a fact. There are no tricks or rabbits out of the hat.

I hope now, finally, those who argued this point with me now get it.

Thomas' game plan and style was unbeatable when our players gave 100%. Even with injury, 100% effort meant we won. And won well.

When we didn't give the effort - we lost and looked slow and one dimensional.

Sound familiar??

The only difference now, is that the list under Thomas took 2 years to learn his plan. There were glimpses in 02, and there were steep learning periods too (remember the uber flood game against Sydney?).

This list has only had 1.25 years to learn Lyon's plan. There are glimpses of it, and we look good. There are also glimpses of learning weeks.


Once the group learns the plan, and can consistently give 100% effort as a group, we'll be fine.


The biggest irony is the people in here who are defending the coach based on the fact that it's players who are aren't listening to him.

The irony is fantastic.

Dodg your not sure if your Arthur or Martha..

You were bleating on here not so long ago that we needed a restructure, complete clean out, we were doomed which was all very chicken little....now suddenly you are saying its just all "effort" and with "effort" any game plan will work and we'll be fine?

You also simplify the departure of Thomas as ALL game plan - it wasnt. He left for much the same reason Butters did - EGO.

Your all over the place...
Who am I talking to at the minute may be a pertinent question?

[Shaggy]

WE ARE INSTRUCTED TO GO OUT AND PLAY AN ATTACKING STYLE OF GAME WHICH WE ARE NOR EXECUTING"

Could it be as simple as Lyon cant get the best out of these players?

Say what you like about GT...he had them playing as a team.

A good coach will always get the best out of his players.

I hear the word 'confidence' is down a lot...why?

Why arent our players confident?

I see hesitation and confusion out there...i see frustration and anger...i dont see a unified team...now who's to blame for this?

This team knows how to win games...its something else thats stuffing their heads up IMO.

Im not sure in 2006 GT got the best out of our players - we were sliding then for mine and everytime a team flooded we were knackered.

In 2006 our players had the lightest pre-season ever and it showed. At the end of the year we were only just running into form whilst carrying X, Raph, Sammy and Kos with the vague hope that they may come good despite missing most of the year. It was a Carp year and losing 4 players by half time against Melbourne capped it off.

But were we really on a downward spiral? Maybe ... maybe not. It was IMO extremely foolish to go in with such a light pre-season and it cost GT his job.