Having to Coach a Team that can't Coach Themselves

[rodgerfox]

On-Field Leadership.

Severely lacking.


To hear Lyon say consistently that 'we don't train like that' and 'that wasn't what I asked them to do' etc. etc. makes me wonder about two things.

He almost passes off the blame that he's done his bit. He told them what to do. We practised it. If it doesn't happen, then it's not his fault.

It's almost as if he's completely baffled by the fact that on-field, we don't have any driving the message on game day.

Sydney clearly have a brilliant list, and have for years. They flew under the radar of being honest battlers. Garbage.

Goodes, Hall, O'Loughlin, Kirk, Barry, Bolton, O'Keefe, Williams, Ball etc. were all senior and very mature players. Not only very good footballers who could win games by acts of skill - they'd also pretty much coach themselves such was their maturity.

When things got tough, they gelled. They led.

Paul Roos has always said that coaching is overrated and that his role is greatly over inflated by the football world.

Perhaps it is when you're lucky enough to have such a good squad. Even better when they're all healthy for you every week.

Do you think Lyon assumed it was going to be the same when he arrived here? Simply give the instruction to the leaders on the track, and they'll go out and do exactly what you say?

Unfortunately for him, and for us, that isn't the case. We've been mentally fragile for years. We appeared to break that shackle in 2005, but 2006 we reverted back.

The question is I suppose, does Lyon have the ability to actually instill on-field leadership into the group? And if not, is he capable of holding their hands for 4 quarters each week?

It took a savage article from Voss to get us up last week. And still we only got 3 quarters out of it.

Perhaps this week, the Max spray to Goose might be the spur we need?

Sheedy used to have to conjur up some 'ammunition' for his group every single week. I used to think this wasn't sustainable. Buit perhaps Sheedy simply knew that Hird aside, he didn't have the on-field leadership tp simply send them out there and let them do their thing.

I never thought we'd become a club that needs firing up each week to perform, but it appears that is where we're at.

Does Lyon have the personality to conjur something up each week?

[fingers]

Interesting question and one that I have pondered recently. Especially after hearing Riciutto talk about Neil Craig's ability to "get" to the players.

I don't know if Ross has it. But then again we never know what it's like in the rooms or at training. We only draw conclusions from what we see.

I still think it comes down to the attitude of the players. If we had 22 guys that applied themselves like 7, 35, 8, 14 we would be unbeatable. I don't think this is something you can teach. I think the players need to want this.

Ross has an ok list to work with. No game breakers. No superstars. But with 22 contributors you will beat most teams most weeks. That's the challenge.

What I don't see is an ability to create a team that is well drilled. A team that just does what the coach wants. I can't and will not believe that the way we play is what Ross Lyon wants.

The 22 on the field need to want it.

[Mr Magic]

Goodness gracious me - some thoughtful and thought provoking posts on this Board this week!

Be careful you may get banned for not posting hysterical rants!

Other than the Michael Voss (maybe fueled by info from his brother) have we seen anything publicly that the players (any of them) are having a problem with RL's 'gameplan'?

Not even an inkling.
And not even any journalists hinting/stating that a player (let alone a group of players) thinks that there is a problem with RL's coaching.

No the only criticism we seem to have is coming from the august luminaries on here, who with their combined knowledge and insight in coaching/playing AFL footy have simple solutions to our perceived problems. Sack the Coach and bring on an 'all-out attack gameplan'.

Well that is what Essendon did last year and if these same august luminaries bothered to listen to their 'cousins' from Bomberland (equally as knowledgeable) they would hear them all calling for action to be taken because their 'all out attack gameplan' is no good.

Here's a novel idea.
Why don't we install a link in the coaches box to an 'Indian Call Centre' and we can vote during the game as to what moves we want the Coach to make?

Attack now - call 1300goforward
Defend now - call 1300runback
Man up now - call 1300manup
Interchange now - call 1300getDaloff

! step further.
You know how the Club sells the right to toss the coin at games. why not get them to sell teh right to tell the Coach what to do during a game?

[saintsRrising]

One of your better posts I think RF...and good points too Fingers.

I have long considered that post-streak that we are a mentally fragile team....and one that consitently manages to not deliver a high enough workrate and concentration rate.

We remain like the girl with the curl....at our best we are very good, at our worst we are dreadful....and you never know which will turn up to play on any given day....or even any quarter.

I posted at the start of last year that getting the players committed to delivera high enough workrate would be Lyon's biggest challenge and it remains so.

As coach it sits squarlely with him to motivate players. However like many of late I still give him till the end of this season to show if he is good enough.


I think many think RL inherited the "streak team".

He did not....he inherited a mentally fragile team...and so far it remains so.

It almost seems like that when Hamill went down....so did the competitive spirit of the Saints....and so far no new Hamill has emerged.



Roo, Max and Banger, and probably the less talented Baker who works his but off, all shine out like beacons for their weekly competitive spirit.....sadly they are the exceptions and not the rule.

[rodgerfox]

I think many think RL inherited the "streak team".

He did not....he inherited a mentally fragile team...and so far it remains so.

I think 'the streak' team was the mentally fragile one - it was just playing above itself.

We fooled alot of people in the first half of 04 - our supporters and I think some of our players included.

[matrix]

Other than the Michael Voss (maybe fueled by info from his brother) have we seen anything publicly that the players (any of them) are having a problem with RL's 'gameplan'?
Not even an inkling.
And not even any journalists hinting/stating that a player (let alone a group of players) thinks that there is a problem with RL's coaching.

what u think that if a few players had a problem with the game plan they are going to come out and say it publicly?
not going to happen is it.
probability would suggest there would be a few who didnt like it.

christ even acker wouldnt come out and say "i have a problem with our game plan and think the coach has it wrong, we need to change our style of play"

no one has said they are experts on here...just saints fans giving their opinions, which quite frankly get shouted down and the poster gets bloody abused for said opinions.


im sure the boys love chipping it around and playing keepsy offs.
take that as u will.....because im sick of that style of play.
if we had the foot and disposal skills it might actually work, but we dont and it isnt.

i look forwrd to follow up posts calling me a cabbage and an armchair supporter

[Mr Magic]

i look forwrd to follow up posts calling me a cabbage and an armchair supporter

Wouldn't want to disappoint!

Without wishing to start a personal war with you over this issue, why is my opinion any more valid than yours and vice-a-versa?

It just seems to me that a lot of posters on here think that they know what the gameplan actually is and therefore they feel they can publicly abuse the coaching staff because they (the posters) know it is a crap 'gameplan'.

Well, unlike those posters I don't actually know what the 'gameplan' is. I have seen our team struggling at times and successful at other times during games.

Does that mean that when we are playing well/succesfully that it is:-

despite the crap 'gameplan'
or
because the other team is no good?

and when we seem to struggle/play badly it is only because
of the crap gameplan

and not because
the other team is any good?

Lots of hysterical posts on here Saturday night and yesterday displaying, IMHO, very little to do with reasoned debate and a lot to do with pent-up frustration over (dare i say it) the sacking of GT.

If I thought that the criticism of RL was actually based on facts instead of this 'anti RL because he replaced GT' garbage maybe I and a few others posting 'not to over-react' might take those critics more seriously?

But then again, too many on here have absolutely no desire to possibly think that there is an alternate view to their own, so this post/rant of mine will most probably be disregarded by those who it was intended for the most.

[matrix]

Without wishing to start a personal war with you over this issue, why is my opinion any more valid than yours and vice-a-versa?

its not and i never said it was.
what i (thought i) said was that probability would say that not EVERY player would be happy with the game plan/style whatever u want to call it.

i dont rate port this year,( even at the end of last year )
i just feel that if we had played attacking football and moved it on quick and got it in there instead of chip chip back back across across, allowing defenders to get back into our forward 50 then the result might have been a bit different.

matrix u are a cabbage

[starsign]

Roo, Max and Banger, and probably the less talented Baker who works his but off, all shine out like beacons for their weekly competitive spirit.....sadly they are the exceptions and not the rule.

tough call on Lennie and possibly Ball sRr !

[saintsRrising]

Roo, Max and Banger, and probably the less talented Baker who works his but off, all shine out like beacons for their weekly competitive spirit.....sadly they are the exceptions and not the rule.

tough call on Lennie and possibly Ball sRr !

Yes you are right..they should have been included as well.

[Solar]

Was reading about the leadership group that the cats and dogs have used that look at developing those type of skills you mention at a player group level (away from the coaches). Could be something that needs developing.

[NoMore]

To say we have no leaders is not true. We have 2 of the best leaders in the AFL. Lenny Hayes is the person who should be captain of our club and has been since the moment GT gave him the captaincy in 04. The other is Luke Ball who even though he pulled out of the race this year is the guy that should have been given the vice captaincy and told that he would take over when Lenny retires or has had enough. Nick is not a leader. He never has been and before you all shout me down this is my opinion and that of alot of saints supporters and general football supporters i know.

On the topic of Ross Lyon and the game plan. If they are not playing the way they train who's fault is that. As Tim Watson said "the fish rots at the head" and currently Ross is the head. I don't want to play all out attack i know that is not feasable. What i do want to do is go to work on monday and not have to defend that crap that we play each week. Today i got told that we should recruit Christiano Rinaldo as he has scored more goals than our team.

I have been a member for 17 years and a social club member 6 of those years but on the way they play football at the moment i can't see that continuing. Why should i fork out nearly $300 and not be entertained. Richmond and Carlton are hopless yet they entertain there fans because they have a crack. Can we honestly say that we are entertained by the style of play we are playing.

So it it is not entertaining and not winning then can anyone here see Ross having his contract extended because it is up for renewal. If we finish the year at 11-11 playing football no one wants to watch is there any hope of a renewal.

I hope not