Game on the move again?

[Teflon]

Does anyon else think their is a subtle change occuring in the game again with forward set ups and goals appearing to be coming from the smaller brigade???

Collingwood look to use their smallish set up a lot - Dudak, Thomas, Davis supported by lumbering Rocca and Choke. Nth's set up looks small but very efficient - cant even name all them but they work incredibly hard to keep the footy in there...I know Franklin kicked 8 but he plays small, tall, fast , slow whatever you want...Geelong play 2 talls - rest is smallish Chapmans, Johson (kicked 4 again today..), Wocjinski..

To me we need to find some HFF's and quick to become less predictable but also to give us time to bed this down this season - it would also force us to pressure more and lower the eyes bringing the footy into the fwd line as opposed to just bombing long to a hopelessly outnumbered Roo/Kos/Gehrig?

To me we are more than capable in the middle and at stoppages - we tackle very well and have workhorses like Hayes/Ball who win enough of their own footy to get it moving our way - we just dont look slick at all coming into fwd 50 and if we could just get some poise and structure to this I reckon wed see the current 4 cylinder saints move up to an 8 in no time. We really do remind me of a spluttering car at present that every now and again winds it out for some speed/class and then all of a sudden turns into this grinding old lorry putting down the road...

ahh....its frustrating isnt it.

[bigcarl]

Does anyon else think their is a subtle change occuring in the game again with forward set ups and goals appearing to be coming from the smaller brigade?

like buddy franklin?

i thought the forward structure worked a lot better WITHOUT riewoldt at chf.

having him closer to goal meant our mids had the option of going straight over his head and kicking one themselves rather than always looking for the big blond superstar.

it was noticeable that we weren't smashed on the rebound across half back nearly as often as we usually are.

[saintsRrising]

Bigcarl..it was not where Roo was so much as that we did not have a cumbersome 3 tall forward set up any more...and in particular we did not have two big slow forwards in Kosi and GTrain that could not apply enough forward pressure whenever the opposion won the ball...or the ball spilled.

[Otiman]

The ability for defenders to peel off their opponent and block holes for leading forwards, and to be third man up in contests has negated the usefulness of the spearhead forward.

If we can get all of our guys working together to create space and good one on one contests, then it won't matter if our guys are 4'3" or 8'2", pace and footy smarts are the key factors.

[bigcarl]

Bigcarl ... it was not where Roo was so much as that we did not have a cumbersome 3 tall forward set up any more ... and in particular we did not have two big slow forwards in Kosi and GTrain that could not apply enough forward pressure whenever the opposion won the ball ... or the ball spilled.

the only reason we tried a 3-man tall set up in the first place was to try to break down our crippling reliance on riewoldt at chf.

this has been a significant structural problem for some years and has confounded more than one coach.

riewoldt playing deeper is one solution and it worked very well on friday night with us looking more potent in attack than at any time since 2004.

for once our midfielders kicked at the goals rather than always at the big blond guy and we ended with a good spread of goal-kickers. we would have won by 10 goals had it not been for essendon's arsey kicking.

another possible solution would be riewoldt to wing, kosi to chf, fraser to ff, and who is to say that wouldn't have been equally as effective.

perhaps G is finished, but i'm sort of loathe to discard a guy who has kicked more than 500 goals and been our most productive avenue to goal for the past 5 seasons.

importantly he is a reliable kick.

i'm like a broken record on this issue but don't for one minute think that i don't rate riewoldt. the guy is a magnificent player, but he can't do it all himself.

we need many avenues to goal like geelong has for us to be a chance this season.

[plugger66]

Does anyon else think their is a subtle change occuring in the game again with forward set ups and goals appearing to be coming from the smaller brigade?

like buddy franklin?

i thought the forward structure worked a lot better WITHOUT riewoldt at chf.

having him closer to goal meant our mids had the option of going straight over his head and kicking one themselves rather than always looking for the big blond superstar.

it was noticeable that we weren't smashed on the rebound across half back nearly as often as we usually are.

I am completely lost with what the forwards have to do with the half backs and IMO we still kicked it to Rooy just as much as normal when we couldnt score goals but they were closer to goal because we didnt flood as much.

[bigcarl]

I am completely lost with what the forwards have to do with the half backs.

sorry. i didn't phrase that correctly.

what i meant is that usually we are killed on the rebound across our half forward line ... their half back line ... under the kick-it-to-roo gameplan.

[saintsRrising]

Bigcarl ... it was not where Roo was so much as that we did not have a cumbersome 3 tall forward set up any more ... and in particular we did not have two big slow forwards in Kosi and GTrain that could not apply enough forward pressure whenever the opposion won the ball ... or the ball spilled.

the only reason we tried a 3-man tall set up in the first place was to try to break down our crippling reliance on riewoldt at chf.

100% disagree.

You were strongly pushing the 3 tall set up for ages.....and never mentioned that it would lead to us over using Roo.

I argued against the structure in preferance to a 2 tall set up for reasons which were on display againts the Dons. Football t me is % game and this structure to me has the higher likliehood of success.

Also importnatly when the opostion are playing well it also helps to negate teir drive out of their defence.

A 3 tall structure can look all well and good when you are flying..........but will bite you badly on the bum when the opposition are at the top of their game.

this has been a significant structural problem for some years and has confounded more than one coach.

riewoldt playing deeper is one solution and it worked very well on friday night with us looking more potent in attack than at any time since 2004.

for once our midfielders kicked at the goals rather than always at the big blond guy and we ended with a good spread of goal-kickers. we would have won by 10 goals had it not been for essendon's arsey kicking.

another possible solution would be riewoldt to wing, kosi to chf, fraser to ff, and who is to say that wouldn't have been equally as effective.

perhaps G is finished, but i'm sort of loathe to discard a guy who has kicked more than 500 goals and been our most productive avenue to goal for the past 5 seasons.

importantly he is a reliable kick.

i'm like a broken record on this issue but don't for one minute think that i don't rate riewoldt. the guy is a magnificent player, but he can't do it all himself.

we need many avenues to goal like geelong has for us to be a chance this season.

I can't follow your logic at all.

According to your theory we used to kick it to Roo too often.

Well for most of this time in previous seasons this was as part of a two man tall set up...Roo and GTrain...

Yet now you say that we will somehow kick it to Roo less....where is part ofa two man tall structure of Roo and GTrain...rather thana 3 man kick it Roo, GTrain and Kosi structure???????


Having an outstanding ket forward has not hurt..

The Hawks with Buddy

The Lions with Brown
The Swans with hall..

The key is that you need the whole forward line to be functional and in particular in todays game you need forward pressue frm your forwards when they lose the ball or rebounding defenders will cut you to ribbons.

The key is using your key tall well...
having Roo and Kosi running to the same spot as in previous weeks due the crowd is not using them wel at all.



Not playing BOTH cumbesome forwards in GTrain and Kosi achieves:
* better defensive pressure in the forward line
* more players running through your midfield due to greaer mobility
poor forward pressure wil also see kickins cut you up too.
*more space in your forward line which helps to free up space for more players to have shots on goals.


Playing 2 talls rather than 3 works better for these reasons and not because Roo becomes less of a target.

[saintsRrising]

PS...by the way I have not said that the GTrain is finished..

I just do not like a 3 tall forward set up where 2 are cumbersome.

I personally do not think that against good opposition that there is room for both GTrain and Kosi in the team.

It is not Roo vs kois..or Roo vs GTrain.

It is GTrain vs Kosi.

For mine at present this should be Kosi (if he does not have to play ruck with King and Gardi both being out).


Unless the Gtrain can somehow learn to appply much greater forward pressure then it will remain to me a choice of Kosi vs Gtrain.



Roo on the wing....???

Well yes he can play wing......but we have quite a number of players that can play wing. (and I would play Charlie as our mobile midfield roaming marking target)

BUT Roo is clearly our BEST tall forward by a clear margin.



Opposition coaches in the main try and limit his effectiveness.

Whereas opposition coaches try and stop both of Kosi and Gtrain....and they really look to greatly exploit their weaknesses.



Roo on a wing has many possible matchups.

Roo asa key forward is always a struggle for opposition coaches.

[bigcarl]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/h ... 55883.html

"I think we've struggled a little bit with the three up there … I think it just needs a bit of tinkering there, whether (Nick Riewoldt) pushes up the ground a bit more."

interesting that lenny hints at riewoldt pushing up the ground a bit (wing?).

that would be one way of getting three very good players into the same line-up.

i think riewoldt/kosi forward can work or gehrig/kosi.

but if it is gehrig/riewoldt we lack someone with the ability to take contested marks. it is also the predictable structure that hasn't been good enough in the past.

[bigcarl]

the only reason we tried a 3-man tall set up in the first place was to try to break down our crippling reliance on riewoldt at chf.

this has been a significant structural problem for some years and has confounded more than one coach.

riewoldt playing deeper is one solution and it worked very well on friday night with us looking more potent in attack than at any time since 2004.

for once our midfielders kicked at the goals rather than always at the big blond guy and we ended with a good spread of goal-kickers. we would have won by 10 goals had it not been for essendon's arsey kicking.

another possible solution would be riewoldt to wing, kosi to chf, fraser to ff, and who is to say that wouldn't have been equally as effective.

perhaps G is finished, but i'm sort of loathe to discard a guy who has kicked more than 500 goals and been our most productive avenue to goal for the past 5 seasons.

importantly he is a reliable kick.

i'm like a broken record on this issue but don't for one minute think that i don't rate riewoldt. the guy is a magnificent player, but he can't do it all himself.

we need many avenues to goal like geelong has for us to be a chance this season.

I can't follow your logic at all.

i'll run it by you again.

playing riewoldt at ff rather than chf meant that instead of falling down at half forward as we usually do our mids were forced to go deeper and more direct in their quest to kick-it-to-roo.

some of them even got so close to goal that they were able to disregard him all together and go for goal themselves ... a step forward for st kilda in my opinion.

in a nutshell, we look a far more dangerous outfit with riewoldt away from half forward, whether he plays ff or wing.

[saintsRrising]

i'll run it by you again.

ta. Nice for you to explain to me a concept that I was advocating pre-game

( see http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... hp?t=41751)

.....whereas after originally plumping for 3 forward talls you had moved Roo to the wing in your pre-game posts....

playing riewoldt at ff rather than chf meant that instead of falling down at half forward as we usually do our mids were forced to go deeper and more direct in their quest to kick-it-to-roo.

ta again...but in my post of 15 April advocating Roo at FF I said amongst other things..
“He will also then draw the ball to where it should be drawn. “

so the improved way that our midfield and forward line worked is hardly a surprise to me. It was my expectation and the logic behind my posy of April 15.

some of them even got so close to goal that they were able to disregard him all together and go for goal themselves ... a step forward for st kilda in my opinion.

remember against the Cats we did not actually lack for players kicking at goal...more than half our team kicked goals and /or points. Their accuracy was crap though.

in a nutshell, we look a far more dangerous outfit with riewoldt away from half forward.

?????since I have been advocating that he play at FF from BEFORE the game...why post game are you seeking to try and convince me that it is good idea??? I already believe that it is good idea.


remember too that it was not just Roo being at FF.....it was not having 3 talls clogging up the forward line.

Not having two lumberers failing to exert forwaward pressure and thereby limiting the attacks of the dons.

Plus having a much more Charlie and others running around supporting the mids.

[saintsRrising]

Does anyon else think their is a subtle change occuring in the game again with forward set ups and goals appearing to be coming from the smaller brigade???

.

Well so far this round Buddy ahs 8, Bradshaw 7 and Fev 7...all talls.

Roo should have hada few more.

However having said that with pace and run more common these days it is perhaps not surprisng that goals are often shared around more these days.


I think another factor is that there are quite a few very good fullbacks playing at present and so the task of full forwards is not an easy one.

Flooding too can clog up the holes that good full forwards want to run into.

Whena FF run is clogged it makesense for mids and HFs to have shots at goal if the FF and his options are well covered.

[bigcarl]

yes, credit where it is due srr. you did advocate riewoldt at ff and it worked well.

i'm all for ANYTHING that lessens our complete reliance on riewoldt as an avenue to goal, including possibly playing him on the wing at some stage.

[saintsRrising]

We do need more players kicking goals more often that is for sure...and it was good to see this occur againts the Dons.