It's not Lyon's fault!!

[rodgerfox]

If you're not a success, you're a failure.

If you don't succeed, then you've failed. It's basic English.

How can you not be a failure, if you don't succeed?

Pretty sure they were your words Mr Fox

Well not really, it's fro the encarta and any dictionary you'll find.

Fail is the antonym to success.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.

Did we finish 8th in the H&A season in 2006?

You can make that season sound more unsuccessful as 8th suggests fewer wins during the year. We finished the H&A 6th with 14 wins with a perentage of 118.4. One win out of the top four.

We were pretty unlucky to lose the first final to Melbourne.

If offered that H&A finish for this year I reckon we'd take it.

It doesn't really matter whether we had finished 6th in the H&A or our true position of 8th, the season didn't give us what all 16 clubs set out for, the premiership cup.
Let me ask you, Would you have been alot more excited had we finished the year on top yet went out in straight sets. Would you be still saying we were the best team in the comp in 2006 even though we had failed to win the flag. Thought not

To do so would be just as misleading as it would be to make a case that the Saints only fell a single place on the ladder between '06 and '07. It's a blatant oversimplification to imply that all teams who don't win the premiership are equally far from the prize, and as dissapoint as both the season and result from the single final were in '06, both were a lot better than simply trying to scrape into September as was the case last year.

[saintsRrising]

You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.

Why look to the Blues for underperforming early draft picks???

Lets have a look at some first round selections that GT was charged to develop...


Beetham
Watts
Brooks

Raph really blitzed...??????

X underachieved under GT

Kosi was never really settled into a role either.

Yes GT did a great job on all the first round Draft Selections did he? you have to be kidding.

Relative to where are first rounders were taken we have actually had a poor return from the picks....nota good one.


GT did well..with the players that would have excelled anyway..


Any player withan "issues' or was hard to deal with sunk or was shown the door. GT's way of manging problem players to make them some one elses problem.


GTrain is about the only exception...and he was a star when he arrived anyway!!!


Most clubs have players emerge??

Where were all our smokies and rookies under GT??? Thank god for Sam Fisher and Gram...otherwise his cupboard would be really bare.

Gram had to be worked....but sam Fisher...the guy is a "natural". One of the few very few Bevo Smokie's that paid off.

[saintsRrising]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

Well no point bringing back GT then

However with Joyce...was he not an assistant at a Premiership side first......like perhaps someone else???

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

Given that since 1981 there have only been something like 14 different premiership coaches and Joyce won 2, I think that it's fair to say there isn't enough data to make the above anything more than an interesting piece of trivia.

[bozza1980]

Why look to the Blues for underperforming early draft picks???

Lets have a look at some first round selections that GT was charged to develop...


Beetham
Watts
Brooks

Raph really blitzed...??????

X underachieved under GT

Kosi was never really settled into a role either.

It's a bit harsh to be rating Beetham as one of GT's failures, GT took over as full time coach at the start of 2002 and Beetham "retired" in 2002.

It's also harsh to be rating Watts as a GT failure came to the club in 2006 broke his ankle in Round 4 and wasn't available for selection again until Rd 17. Please tell me how anyone is supposed to develop someone who's season is crueled like that, there was also the minor thing of GT being sacked at the end of 2006, this made it pretty hard for him to further develop young Fergus.

Brooks and X are fair enough calls.

Raph is still mis-firing after 2 years with Lyon, not necessarily a fault of GT's.

Kosie found it hard to be settled into a position other than in the Grandstand because he kept finding new and more inventinve ways of injuring himself. Unless GT had a voodoo doll out on poor Justin, I'm not sure this is his fault either.

He got the arse, let it go but not everything that is wrong with the club is he's fault.

[SENsei]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

Interesting comment. Did Denis Pagan play in a Grand Final? Not disputing, but thought he would be the only flaw in your theory. Possibly 1973 or 1974?

[saintsRrising]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

Given that since 1981 there have only been something like 14 different premiership coaches and Joyce won 2, I think that it's fair to say there isn't enough data to make the above anything more than an interesting piece of trivia.

I have not actually anlaysed every coach appointed but would suspect that the data would tend to biased as most coaches appointed most likely have played in Premiership Teams??????????????

[rodgerfox]

Brooks and X are fair enough calls.

Brooks did his knee also.

[bozza1980]

Brooks and X are fair enough calls.

Brooks did his knee also.

I didn't really see him much prior to doing his knee, but you are right, the word was that he wasn't quite the same afterwards.

[saintsRrising]

It's a bit harsh to be rating Beetham as one of GT's failures, GT took over as full time coach at the start of 2002 and Beetham "retired" in 2002.

.

Bit harsh?? LOL...but then I am not the one painting him to be a super-developer of players.

Some of the previous posts would have him asa great developer of players because some players with graat potential went on to make it.

However there would seem to be not many posts about all the under-achievers, problem childs, rough diamonds, rookies etc that GT turned around.


Look at Guerra for example...came to club with known "issues"...blitzed for a bit and was then shown the door.

Over then to the Hawks where they did turn him around.

[tweedaletomanning]

Thanks SEN, yes Denis Pagan played in the Grand Final Loss to Richmond in 1974...I personally think that stat (about the coaches) is quite interesting as well... "Not all grand finalist players make premiership coaches, but all premiership coaches since the "AFL" started are grand finalist players"

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

Given that since 1981 there have only been something like 14 different premiership coaches and Joyce won 2, I think that it's fair to say there isn't enough data to make the above anything more than an interesting piece of trivia.

I have not actually anlaysed every coach appointed but would suspect that the data would tend to biased as most coaches appointed most likely have played in Premiership Teams??????????????

Since posting that I got curious and looked it up. It's actually 13 coaches, with the 4 to Matthews and Sheedy and 3 to Parkin and Jeans accounting for nearly half. Joyce, Malthouse, Pagan and Blight all have 2, and the singles round it out.

I would imagine sRr is correct and the data would be highly biased... I'd be very curious to know over the same period what percentage of coaches have played on Grand Final day, but again, only as a piece of trivia.

[bozza1980]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

Interesting comment. Did Denis Pagan play in a Grand Final? Not disputing, but thought he would be the only flaw in your theory. Possibly 1973 or 1974?

Jeans (premiership coach 83, 86, 89) didn't play in a Grand Final.

[saintsRrising]

*My personal rating of GT was that he was an average match day coach...not good..not bad

*He was a lousy development coach.

*As the Overall Football Manager that he aspired to be = POOR.....long term contracts with injured players biting us on the bum, the Saints playing short of maximum list numbers as our salary cap was maxed out.........trading and drafting of players poor.......managing of conditioning of players= lurching from crisis to crisis

*As part of working as a team member himself (ie the coaching mangement team, realtionship with Board etc) his record at the Saints was dismal with a constant stream of assistant coaches and bad blood. Ditto for his time at the Kangas too. Not sure his stint at The Age went too flash either.

[bozza1980]

It's a bit harsh to be rating Beetham as one of GT's failures, GT took over as full time coach at the start of 2002 and Beetham "retired" in 2002.

.

Bit harsh?? LOL...but then I am not the one painting him to be a super-developer of players.

OK, I'll try and express myself differently.

Beetham played 3 seasons before deciding that AFL footy was too hard for him.

1 under Watson
0.8 under Blight
1.2 under Thomas

Considering that Thomas was his full time coach for 1 season out of his 3, as a reasonable person, I wouldn't apportion the blame for his lack of development at Thomas' feet.

I'm not an expert at developing players but I would suggest 3 coaches in 3 season may not have had a sensational effect.

Or do we want to blame Thomas for the fact that Rod Owen never really realised his potential at Moorabbin or anywhere??

[Saints43]

Bit harsh?? LOL...but then I am not the one painting him to be a super-developer of players.

Who is saying he was a super-developer of players? As far as I can tell people have only responded saying that comments such as these are inaccurate/unfair. There's a difference between saying that he did develop youngsters and that he was brilliant at it.

GT was given a great bag of players to do something with.....and then could not add value to it..

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

[tweedaletomanning]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

Interesting comment. Did Denis Pagan play in a Grand Final? Not disputing, but thought he would be the only flaw in your theory. Possibly 1973 or 1974?

Jeans (premiership coach 83, 86, 89) didn't play in a Grand Final either.

True, but had already a track record of coaching us to a flag in 66. Anyway i thought it was an interesting stat..

[bozza1980]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

Interesting comment. Did Denis Pagan play in a Grand Final? Not disputing, but thought he would be the only flaw in your theory. Possibly 1973 or 1974?

Jeans (premiership coach 83, 86, 89) didn't play in a Grand Final either.

True, but had already a track record of coaching us to a flag in 66. Anyway i thought it was an interesting stat..

It is.

[rodgerfox]

However there would seem to be not many posts about all the under-achievers, problem childs, rough diamonds, rookies etc that GT turned around.

HAHAHAHahahahaaHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Good one.

[saintsRrising]

OK, I'll try and express myself differently.

Beetham played 3 seasons before deciding that AFL footy was too hard for him.

Hi..I don't necassarily disagree on Bettham...but to put it in context my list was a list of all the first round draft picks that did not make it while GT was coach.

If I was only talking about Beetham..then fair enough...but it wasa list conteracting the "Livingstone Argument".

[saintsRrising]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

Interesting comment. Did Denis Pagan play in a Grand Final? Not disputing, but thought he would be the only flaw in your theory. Possibly 1973 or 1974?

Jeans (premiership coach 83, 86, 89) didn't play in a Grand Final either.

True, but had already a track record of coaching us to a flag in 66. Anyway i thought it was an interesting stat..

And did Joyce not havea track record as apremiersgip assitant??? I am a bit hazy about which years he was an assistant in.

[saintsRrising]

However there would seem to be not many posts about all the under-achievers, problem childs, rough diamonds, rookies etc that GT turned around.

HAHAHAHahahahaaHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Good one.

Matthews had his Pike..


Which St Kilda player can say....there but for the grace of GT go I????

[NeXuss]

All of this arguing is a total waste of time. Does it really matter who developed who? The fact is that while GT was coach, once our team got off the bottom, they played long, direct and exciting football. Irrespective of the result, when St.kilda played, their aim was to kick more goals than their opposition, apart from a couple of games which we are all aware of.

Look at our style now....it is terrible. I've only been to 1 game so far this year and I will not be going to any others. I saw the Carlton game which has been our best win so far. I remember early in the 1st quarter we had 17 of our 18 players in our defensive 50 metre arc. I think the only player not in there was Gehrig. He was in the square on the defensive side of the centre. Mind you, this was early in the first quarter.

I don't want St.kilda to play like that. I don't care whether we won the match. That is a crap style of football...it's boring, it's just plain stupid. This is not how you develop a premiership team. What's the point of Jason Gram winning the ball in the back pocket? When he looks up and takes a couple of bounces he then realises that no one is forward of the centre so he has to kick the ball long and to the boundary.

Is that the style or game plan you want to see? It's not what I want to see that's for sure. I want to see our half back line win the ball one on one then Gram streams out with 3 bounces handballs to Goddard who then pin points a long 55 metre pass to Montagna. He then plays on with a long kick to the square where Reiwoldt is surrounded by 3 defenders who do really well to spoil but the crumbs are brilliantly gathered by Schnieder who snaps truly off his wrong foot for a goal.

That's the type of footy I want to see. Not this stupid Sydney s*** that we have been playing now for 1 year and 4 rounds. The commentators call it accountable footy but I call it CRAP.

Since everyone has ignored my reply, I will post it as a new thread!!!!

[Dan Warna]

bloody hell

crying over GT is pointless.

we had GT, I thought he was great, others thought he was the best, some thought he was satan incarnate and everything in between.

he's gone

he's subsequently made an ass of himself in my opinion with legal action and comments in teh press, and frankly I am not sure I'd want him back at the club.

move on FFS.