Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?Hard at it wrote:I think you are the one deluded champ. I dont get overly excited about leading prelims at 3qtr time and losing or 8th place finishes. We all play to win premierships.rodgerfox wrote:What you need to realise, is that many in the football world disagree with you.Hard at it wrote: I think what everyone needs to get their head around, is that you are only successful when you win the premiership, and GT who was gifted with the biggest chance we have had in a long time failed and in doing so sent the list backwards
And there are dozens, possibly hundreds of threads which argue that point.
If you think people are going 'realise' that you are right, and everyone else is wrong, you're deluded.
Some are easily pleased it seems![]()
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It's not Lyon's fault!!
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Robert Harvey is a champion. Individually he has had alot of success but i bet you he wouldn't call himself successful because we played in 3 final series in a rowrodgerfox wrote:Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?Hard at it wrote:I think you are the one deluded champ. I dont get overly excited about leading prelims at 3qtr time and losing or 8th place finishes. We all play to win premierships.rodgerfox wrote:What you need to realise, is that many in the football world disagree with you.Hard at it wrote: I think what everyone needs to get their head around, is that you are only successful when you win the premiership, and GT who was gifted with the biggest chance we have had in a long time failed and in doing so sent the list backwards
And there are dozens, possibly hundreds of threads which argue that point.
If you think people are going 'realise' that you are right, and everyone else is wrong, you're deluded.
Some are easily pleased it seems![]()
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No. I call him a championrodgerfox wrote:Do you call him a successful footballer?Hard at it wrote:Robert Harvey is a champion. Individually he has had alot of success but i bet you he wouldn't call himself successful because we played in 3 final series in a rowrodgerfox wrote:
Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?
He did wonders with Brooks, Watts, Ackland, McGough, Raymond, Ferguson, etc. Anyone could have developed some of the players you mentioned into great footballers. Do you honestly think Riewoldt only became the player he is due to GT's great guidancemeher baba wrote:Absolute garbage. You can make lots of fair criticisms of GT but not this one.st.byron wrote:exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.
Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.
You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.
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- rodgerfox
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Hard at it wrote:No. I call him a championrodgerfox wrote:Do you call him a successful footballer?Hard at it wrote:Robert Harvey is a champion. Individually he has had alot of success but i bet you he wouldn't call himself successful because we played in 3 final series in a rowrodgerfox wrote:
Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?
So he's a failure?
I think that is incredibly harsh and unfair.
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We have 18 regulars from our 2005 team playing today. Only 3 are over the age of 28.
Half our side back in 2005 (when we were a dominant side) was made up of 23 year olds and younger.
Posters who think GT was playing with a seasoned side are IMO deluded. RL however is today.
There used to be a lot of criticism thrown at GT with continually playing youngsters like X, Raph, BJ, Monty, Mini, Fish and Chips in his first half season when these guys were ordinary.
But I believe this show of faith works much better for development than leaving players to mature in the VFL over a number of years which seems to be RL’s preferred choice (i.e. Armo and Allan).
Half our side back in 2005 (when we were a dominant side) was made up of 23 year olds and younger.
Posters who think GT was playing with a seasoned side are IMO deluded. RL however is today.
There used to be a lot of criticism thrown at GT with continually playing youngsters like X, Raph, BJ, Monty, Mini, Fish and Chips in his first half season when these guys were ordinary.
But I believe this show of faith works much better for development than leaving players to mature in the VFL over a number of years which seems to be RL’s preferred choice (i.e. Armo and Allan).
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Cant recall saying he was a failure, but im happy for you to paste up my quote if i did. Pretty sure i called him a championrodgerfox wrote:Hard at it wrote:No. I call him a championrodgerfox wrote:Do you call him a successful footballer?Hard at it wrote:Robert Harvey is a champion. Individually he has had alot of success but i bet you he wouldn't call himself successful because we played in 3 final series in a rowrodgerfox wrote:
Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?
So he's a failure?
I think that is incredibly harsh and unfair.
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Why are people looking at individual players when speaking of development?Washedup wrote:He did wonders with Brooks, Watts, Ackland, McGough, Raymond, Ferguson, etc. Anyone could have developed some of the players you mentioned into great footballers. Do you honestly think Riewoldt only became the player he is due to GT's great guidancemeher baba wrote:Absolute garbage. You can make lots of fair criticisms of GT but not this one.st.byron wrote:exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.
Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.
You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.
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If you're not a success, you're a failure.Hard at it wrote:Cant recall saying he was a failure, but im happy for you to paste up my quote if i did. Pretty sure i called him a championrodgerfox wrote:
So he's a failure?
I think that is incredibly harsh and unfair.
If you don't succeed, then you've failed. It's basic English.
How can you not be a failure, if you don't succeed?
Seeing as Harvey has't won a flag, and that is the only gauge of success, then he is a failure.
I think that is rubbish.
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- Saints43
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You're right. I never used the word 'like'. I said it was the 'same as'.saintsRrising wrote:Thanks for the bake...Saints43 wrote:I said it was like that. Similar. Using an example, you see.saintsRrising wrote:Well that would be true IF I had said it..which I did not.
What you did say was bollocks.
However if you are going to roast me can you please point out where in fact you said like..as you state?
Saints43 wrote:
To say GT had Hall & Loewe & Burke is the same as saying Alves had Lockett.
True but a skewing of the situation.
GT had some good senior players (Lawrence was NOT one of them) but they were surrounded by some absolute duds.
How much football did Hall & Loewe & Burke play with Riewoldt?
Your historical reminiscences are becoming as outcome dependant as some of the worst on this forum.
Both words in context would mean 'similar'.
Doesn't change the original jist that you were using facts - and they were facts - in a disingenuous manner.
It suits you to argue over this small point while ignoring this part of the post:
GT had some good senior players (Lawrence was NOT one of them) but they were surrounded by some absolute duds.
How much football did Hall & Loewe & Burke play with Riewoldt?
Your historical reminiscences are becoming as outcome dependant as some of the worst on this forum.
Look, I'm quoting myself and bolding points...
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yep, they have all developed in Thomas' time at St.Kilda. And their respective ages are :meher baba wrote:Absolute garbage. You can make lots of fair criticisms of GT but not this one.st.byron wrote:exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.
Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.
You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.
Milne : 29
Roo : 25
Kosi : 25
Ball : 24
Dal : 24
Joey :25
Leigh Fish : 24
Sam Fish : 26
X : 24
Goose : 24
BJ : 23
Gilbert : 21
Gram: 24
With the exception of Gilbert not one player under 23, and only one under 24.. Where are the rest of the 20 -23y.o's that are developing into top flight players?????
Brooks, Watts, McQualter, Gwilt, Cathal Corr, McDonnell, Pfitzner, Raymond, Sweeney??? Every one of these apart from Brooks (25) in the
20 - 23 y.o age bracket. And not one of any long-term value to the club
(Gwilt and McQualter still on the list but not exactly pushing for senior honours).
A yawning gap in this age group. Poor list management and poor management of the relationship with Casey by Thomas.
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Yes HAI, I overlooked this stretching of the Thomas myth by Babble-a-lot. Gilbert has really blossomed under Lyon, but came to the club under Thomas.Hard at it wrote:You said he developed them into first team regulars, i hardly call 2 senior games a first team regular.meher baba wrote:Check your factsHard at it wrote: he never played Gilbert.
Get a clue
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We should recall that the "8th place finish" was the result of losing to Melbourne in a game where the Saints fell away in an upset due to a spate of injuries in a single game.Hard at it wrote:So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.
In the H&A season, they finished 6th, Percentage knocking them down from a 3-way tie for 4th.
If we're going to compare that season to '05 and '06, it's a dissapointment. It was still a much better result than anything Lyon's offered up to date.
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Did we finish 8th in the H&A season in 2006?Hard at it wrote:So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.
You can make that season sound more unsuccessful as 8th suggests fewer wins during the year. We finished the H&A 6th with 14 wins with a perentage of 118.4. One win out of the top four.
We were pretty unlucky to lose the first final to Melbourne.
If offered that H&A finish for this year I reckon we'd take it.
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It doesn't really matter whether we had finished 6th in the H&A or our true position of 8th, the season didn't give us what all 16 clubs set out for, the premiership cup.Saints43 wrote:Did we finish 8th in the H&A season in 2006?Hard at it wrote:So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.
You can make that season sound more unsuccessful as 8th suggests fewer wins during the year. We finished the H&A 6th with 14 wins with a perentage of 118.4. One win out of the top four.
We were pretty unlucky to lose the first final to Melbourne.
If offered that H&A finish for this year I reckon we'd take it.
Let me ask you, Would you have been alot more excited had we finished the year on top yet went out in straight sets. Would you be still saying we were the best team in the comp in 2006 even though we had failed to win the flag. Thought not
All of this arguing is a total waste of time. Does it really matter who developed who? The fact is that while GT was coach, once our team got off the bottom, they played long, direct and exciting football. Irrespective of the result, when St.kilda played, their aim was to kick more goals than their opposition, apart from a couple of games which we are all aware of.
Look at our style now....it is terrible. I've only been to 1 game so far this year and I will not be going to any others. I saw the Carlton game which has been our best win so far. I remember early in the 1st quarter we had 17 of our 18 players in our defensive 50 metre arc. I think the only player not in there was Gehrig. He was in the square on the defensive side of the centre. Mind you, this was early in the first quarter.
I don't want St.kilda to play like that. I don't care whether we won the match. That is a crap style of football...it's boring, it's just plain stupid. This is not how you develop a premiership team. What's the point of Jason Gram winning the ball in the back pocket? When he looks up and takes a couple of bounces he then realises that no one is forward of the centre so he has to kick the ball long and to the boundary.
Is that the style or game plan you want to see? It's not what I want to see that's for sure. I want to see our half back line win the ball one on one then Gram streams out with 3 bounces handballs to Goddard who then pin points a long 55 metre pass to Montagna. He then plays on with a long kick to the square where Reiwoldt is surrounded by 3 defenders who do really well to spoil but the crumbs are brilliantly gathered by Schnieder who snaps truly off his wrong foot for a goal.
That's the type of footy I want to see. Not this stupid Sydney s*** that we have been playing now for 1 year and 4 rounds. The commentators call it accountable footy but I call it CRAP.![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
Look at our style now....it is terrible. I've only been to 1 game so far this year and I will not be going to any others. I saw the Carlton game which has been our best win so far. I remember early in the 1st quarter we had 17 of our 18 players in our defensive 50 metre arc. I think the only player not in there was Gehrig. He was in the square on the defensive side of the centre. Mind you, this was early in the first quarter.
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
I don't want St.kilda to play like that. I don't care whether we won the match. That is a crap style of football...it's boring, it's just plain stupid. This is not how you develop a premiership team. What's the point of Jason Gram winning the ball in the back pocket? When he looks up and takes a couple of bounces he then realises that no one is forward of the centre so he has to kick the ball long and to the boundary.
Is that the style or game plan you want to see? It's not what I want to see that's for sure. I want to see our half back line win the ball one on one then Gram streams out with 3 bounces handballs to Goddard who then pin points a long 55 metre pass to Montagna. He then plays on with a long kick to the square where Reiwoldt is surrounded by 3 defenders who do really well to spoil but the crumbs are brilliantly gathered by Schnieder who snaps truly off his wrong foot for a goal.
That's the type of footy I want to see. Not this stupid Sydney s*** that we have been playing now for 1 year and 4 rounds. The commentators call it accountable footy but I call it CRAP.
![Evil or Very Mad :evil:](./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif)
- rodgerfox
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Hard at it wrote:So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.
For a start, the concept that we finished 8th is just moronic.
We won 14 games for the year, finished off the top 4 by % then 'hosted' a final at our opponents home ground. Lost 4 crucial players during the game, which added to the several underdone and hampered players we already had.
Yet nearly held on and pinched it.
I thought our 2006 was a very, very good effort. A fantastic effort.
All this considering we had such a terible list that had been butchered and mutilated by a derelect coach.
There is an in between. You are the one who declared that you only succeed if you win a flag. This means Harvey, Bob Skilton, Nathan Burke and so on, are all failures as footballers.
I competely disagree.
In a game that has so many variables, and so many uncontrollables, you cannot be simply judged on your number of premierships.
To declare Robert Harvey a failure simply because the only measure of success - a premiership, has alluded him is rubbish. Did he do everything within his power to be in the best possible position for his team to win a flag? Yes. Therefore I think he is a successful footballer.
To declare Grant Thomas a failure simply because he didn't win a flag, is also rubbish.
If he didn't do everything within his power to put us in the best possible position to win a flag, then sure, he failed in that regard.
If he got the best out of what was available to him, then for mine he was successful.
I believe, as a club, 2004, 2005 and 2006 were successful years considering where our list was at and how many of those actual players we had available.
There are so many, many things that you can't control that need to go right for you to win a flag.
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For a start, the concept that we finished 8th is just moronic.
We won 14 games for the year, finished off the top 4 by % then 'hosted' a final at our opponents home ground. Lost 4 crucial players during the game, which added to the several underdone and hampered players we already had.
Yet nearly held on and pinched it.
I thought our 2006 was a very, very good effort. A fantastic effort.
Oh come on rodger give it a rest...GT is GONE, he had some qualities, but he had significant failings as well. Why do you think two successive administrations want nothing to do with him?
Unless you are stupid enough to believe everything he says, then you must accept that he had his chance over 5 years, and ultimately failed. He is damaged goods and he is done with coaching.
Btw, we fell over the line against port and essendon in 2006. We were very lucky. We should have finished with 12 wins...
Last edited by kaos theory on Thu 17 Apr 2008 2:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- rodgerfox
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Give it a rest???kaos theory wrote:For a start, the concept that we finished 8th is just moronic.
We won 14 games for the year, finished off the top 4 by % then 'hosted' a final at our opponents home ground. Lost 4 crucial players during the game, which added to the several underdone and hampered players we already had.
Yet nearly held on and pinched it.
I thought our 2006 was a very, very good effort. A fantastic effort.
Oh come on rodger give it a rest...GT is GONE, he had some qualities, but he had significant failings as well. Why do you think two successive administrations want nothing to do with him?
Unless you are stupid enough to believe everything he says, then you must accept that he had his chance over 5 years, and ultimately failed. He is damaged goods and he is done with coaching.
Btw, we fell over the line against port and essendon in 2006. We were very lucky. We should have finished with 12 wins...
I was responding to a direct question. A direct question about my thoughts on the 2006 season. And you ask me to give it a rest??
You don't think I should have replied?