It's not Lyon's fault!!

[rodgerfox]

I think what everyone needs to get their head around, is that you are only successful when you win the premiership, and GT who was gifted with the biggest chance we have had in a long time failed and in doing so sent the list backwards

What you need to realise, is that many in the football world disagree with you.

And there are dozens, possibly hundreds of threads which argue that point.

If you think people are going 'realise' that you are right, and everyone else is wrong, you're deluded.

I think you are the one deluded champ. I dont get overly excited about leading prelims at 3qtr time and losing or 8th place finishes. We all play to win premierships.
Some are easily pleased it seems

Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?

[Hard at it]

he never played Gilbert.

Check your facts

You said he developed them into first team regulars, i hardly call 2 senior games a first team regular.
Get a clue

[Hard at it]

I think what everyone needs to get their head around, is that you are only successful when you win the premiership, and GT who was gifted with the biggest chance we have had in a long time failed and in doing so sent the list backwards

What you need to realise, is that many in the football world disagree with you.

And there are dozens, possibly hundreds of threads which argue that point.

If you think people are going 'realise' that you are right, and everyone else is wrong, you're deluded.

I think you are the one deluded champ. I dont get overly excited about leading prelims at 3qtr time and losing or 8th place finishes. We all play to win premierships.
Some are easily pleased it seems

Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?

Robert Harvey is a champion. Individually he has had alot of success but i bet you he wouldn't call himself successful because we played in 3 final series in a row

[rodgerfox]

Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?

Robert Harvey is a champion. Individually he has had alot of success but i bet you he wouldn't call himself successful because we played in 3 final series in a row

Do you call him a successful footballer?

[Hard at it]

Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?

Robert Harvey is a champion. Individually he has had alot of success but i bet you he wouldn't call himself successful because we played in 3 final series in a row

Do you call him a successful footballer?

No. I call him a champion

[Washedup]

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

Absolute garbage. You can make lots of fair criticisms of GT but not this one.

Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.

You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.

He did wonders with Brooks, Watts, Ackland, McGough, Raymond, Ferguson, etc. Anyone could have developed some of the players you mentioned into great footballers. Do you honestly think Riewoldt only became the player he is due to GT's great guidance

[rodgerfox]

Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?

Robert Harvey is a champion. Individually he has had alot of success but i bet you he wouldn't call himself successful because we played in 3 final series in a row

Do you call him a successful footballer?

No. I call him a champion

So he's a failure?

I think that is incredibly harsh and unfair.

[Shaggy]

We have 18 regulars from our 2005 team playing today. Only 3 are over the age of 28.

Half our side back in 2005 (when we were a dominant side) was made up of 23 year olds and younger.

Posters who think GT was playing with a seasoned side are IMO deluded. RL however is today.

There used to be a lot of criticism thrown at GT with continually playing youngsters like X, Raph, BJ, Monty, Mini, Fish and Chips in his first half season when these guys were ordinary.

But I believe this show of faith works much better for development than leaving players to mature in the VFL over a number of years which seems to be RL’s preferred choice (i.e. Armo and Allan).

[Hard at it]

Do you think Robert Harvey is a successful footballer?

Robert Harvey is a champion. Individually he has had alot of success but i bet you he wouldn't call himself successful because we played in 3 final series in a row

Do you call him a successful footballer?

No. I call him a champion

So he's a failure?

I think that is incredibly harsh and unfair.

Cant recall saying he was a failure, but im happy for you to paste up my quote if i did. Pretty sure i called him a champion

[rodgerfox]

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

Absolute garbage. You can make lots of fair criticisms of GT but not this one.

Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.

You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.

He did wonders with Brooks, Watts, Ackland, McGough, Raymond, Ferguson, etc. Anyone could have developed some of the players you mentioned into great footballers. Do you honestly think Riewoldt only became the player he is due to GT's great guidance

Why are people looking at individual players when speaking of development?

[rodgerfox]

So he's a failure?

I think that is incredibly harsh and unfair.

Cant recall saying he was a failure, but im happy for you to paste up my quote if i did. Pretty sure i called him a champion

If you're not a success, you're a failure.

If you don't succeed, then you've failed. It's basic English.

How can you not be a failure, if you don't succeed?

Seeing as Harvey has't won a flag, and that is the only gauge of success, then he is a failure.


I think that is rubbish.

[Hard at it]

So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.

[Saints43]

Well that would be true IF I had said it..which I did not.

I said it was like that. Similar. Using an example, you see.

What you did say was bollocks.

Thanks for the bake...

However if you are going to roast me can you please point out where in fact you said like..as you state?

To say GT had Hall & Loewe & Burke is the same as saying Alves had Lockett.
True but a skewing of the situation.
GT had some good senior players (Lawrence was NOT one of them) but they were surrounded by some absolute duds.
How much football did Hall & Loewe & Burke play with Riewoldt?
Your historical reminiscences are becoming as outcome dependant as some of the worst on this forum.

You're right. I never used the word 'like'. I said it was the 'same as'.

Both words in context would mean 'similar'.

Doesn't change the original jist that you were using facts - and they were facts - in a disingenuous manner.

It suits you to argue over this small point while ignoring this part of the post:

GT had some good senior players (Lawrence was NOT one of them) but they were surrounded by some absolute duds.
How much football did Hall & Loewe & Burke play with Riewoldt?
Your historical reminiscences are becoming as outcome dependant as some of the worst on this forum.

Look, I'm quoting myself and bolding points...

[st.byron]

exactly sRr. He did sfa to develop and nurture young talent through the club.

Absolute garbage. You can make lots of fair criticisms of GT but not this one.

Under GT's guidance, Milne, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Dal, Joey, Fish, Chips, X, Goose, BJ, Gilbert and Gram all devloped into regular first team players.

You've only got to think about the Luke Livingstons and other young players of great potential mentioned in another thread - or even the bunch of underperforming early draft picks running around in the old navy blue to realise that these potential young champions don't simply turn themselves into top flight players.

yep, they have all developed in Thomas' time at St.Kilda. And their respective ages are :
Milne : 29
Roo : 25
Kosi : 25
Ball : 24
Dal : 24
Joey :25
Leigh Fish : 24
Sam Fish : 26
X : 24
Goose : 24
BJ : 23
Gilbert : 21
Gram: 24

With the exception of Gilbert not one player under 23, and only one under 24.. Where are the rest of the 20 -23y.o's that are developing into top flight players?????
Brooks, Watts, McQualter, Gwilt, Cathal Corr, McDonnell, Pfitzner, Raymond, Sweeney??? Every one of these apart from Brooks (25) in the
20 - 23 y.o age bracket. And not one of any long-term value to the club
(Gwilt and McQualter still on the list but not exactly pushing for senior honours).
A yawning gap in this age group. Poor list management and poor management of the relationship with Casey by Thomas.

[st.byron]

he never played Gilbert.

Check your facts

You said he developed them into first team regulars, i hardly call 2 senior games a first team regular.
Get a clue

Yes HAI, I overlooked this stretching of the Thomas myth by Babble-a-lot. Gilbert has really blossomed under Lyon, but came to the club under Thomas.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.

We should recall that the "8th place finish" was the result of losing to Melbourne in a game where the Saints fell away in an upset due to a spate of injuries in a single game.

In the H&A season, they finished 6th, Percentage knocking them down from a 3-way tie for 4th.

If we're going to compare that season to '05 and '06, it's a dissapointment. It was still a much better result than anything Lyon's offered up to date.

[Saints43]

So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.

Did we finish 8th in the H&A season in 2006?

You can make that season sound more unsuccessful as 8th suggests fewer wins during the year. We finished the H&A 6th with 14 wins with a perentage of 118.4. One win out of the top four.

We were pretty unlucky to lose the first final to Melbourne.

If offered that H&A finish for this year I reckon we'd take it.

[Hard at it]

So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.

Did we finish 8th in the H&A season in 2006?

You can make that season sound more unsuccessful as 8th suggests fewer wins during the year. We finished the H&A 6th with 14 wins with a perentage of 118.4. One win out of the top four.

We were pretty unlucky to lose the first final to Melbourne.

If offered that H&A finish for this year I reckon we'd take it.

It doesn't really matter whether we had finished 6th in the H&A or our true position of 8th, the season didn't give us what all 16 clubs set out for, the premiership cup.
Let me ask you, Would you have been alot more excited had we finished the year on top yet went out in straight sets. Would you be still saying we were the best team in the comp in 2006 even though we had failed to win the flag. Thought not

[NeXuss]

All of this arguing is a total waste of time. Does it really matter who developed who? The fact is that while GT was coach, once our team got off the bottom, they played long, direct and exciting football. Irrespective of the result, when St.kilda played, their aim was to kick more goals than their opposition, apart from a couple of games which we are all aware of.

Look at our style now....it is terrible. I've only been to 1 game so far this year and I will not be going to any others. I saw the Carlton game which has been our best win so far. I remember early in the 1st quarter we had 17 of our 18 players in our defensive 50 metre arc. I think the only player not in there was Gehrig. He was in the square on the defensive side of the centre. Mind you, this was early in the first quarter.

I don't want St.kilda to play like that. I don't care whether we won the match. That is a crap style of football...it's boring, it's just plain stupid. This is not how you develop a premiership team. What's the point of Jason Gram winning the ball in the back pocket? When he looks up and takes a couple of bounces he then realises that no one is forward of the centre so he has to kick the ball long and to the boundary.

Is that the style or game plan you want to see? It's not what I want to see that's for sure. I want to see our half back line win the ball one on one then Gram streams out with 3 bounces handballs to Goddard who then pin points a long 55 metre pass to Montagna. He then plays on with a long kick to the square where Reiwoldt is surrounded by 3 defenders who do really well to spoil but the crumbs are brilliantly gathered by Schnieder who snaps truly off his wrong foot for a goal.

That's the type of footy I want to see. Not this stupid Sydney s*** that we have been playing now for 1 year and 4 rounds. The commentators call it accountable footy but I call it CRAP.

[rodgerfox]

So do you classify our 8th place finish in 2006 a success or failure? Because as you say there is no in between.

For a start, the concept that we finished 8th is just moronic.

We won 14 games for the year, finished off the top 4 by % then 'hosted' a final at our opponents home ground. Lost 4 crucial players during the game, which added to the several underdone and hampered players we already had.

Yet nearly held on and pinched it.

I thought our 2006 was a very, very good effort. A fantastic effort.

All this considering we had such a terible list that had been butchered and mutilated by a derelect coach.


There is an in between. You are the one who declared that you only succeed if you win a flag. This means Harvey, Bob Skilton, Nathan Burke and so on, are all failures as footballers.

I competely disagree.


In a game that has so many variables, and so many uncontrollables, you cannot be simply judged on your number of premierships.

To declare Robert Harvey a failure simply because the only measure of success - a premiership, has alluded him is rubbish. Did he do everything within his power to be in the best possible position for his team to win a flag? Yes. Therefore I think he is a successful footballer.

To declare Grant Thomas a failure simply because he didn't win a flag, is also rubbish.
If he didn't do everything within his power to put us in the best possible position to win a flag, then sure, he failed in that regard.

If he got the best out of what was available to him, then for mine he was successful.

I believe, as a club, 2004, 2005 and 2006 were successful years considering where our list was at and how many of those actual players we had available.

There are so many, many things that you can't control that need to go right for you to win a flag.

[rodgerfox]

Gilbert has really blossomed under Lyon

Has he??

[tweedaletomanning]

Unfortunately, statistics are against him...there has been NO coach in the last 25 years (besides Joyce) that has taken his side to a premiership, that hasn't played in a GF side himself...

[kaos theory]

For a start, the concept that we finished 8th is just moronic.

We won 14 games for the year, finished off the top 4 by % then 'hosted' a final at our opponents home ground. Lost 4 crucial players during the game, which added to the several underdone and hampered players we already had.

Yet nearly held on and pinched it.

I thought our 2006 was a very, very good effort. A fantastic effort.

Oh come on rodger give it a rest...GT is GONE, he had some qualities, but he had significant failings as well. Why do you think two successive administrations want nothing to do with him?

Unless you are stupid enough to believe everything he says, then you must accept that he had his chance over 5 years, and ultimately failed. He is damaged goods and he is done with coaching.

Btw, we fell over the line against port and essendon in 2006. We were very lucky. We should have finished with 12 wins...

[Hard at it]

If you're not a success, you're a failure.

If you don't succeed, then you've failed. It's basic English.

How can you not be a failure, if you don't succeed?

Pretty sure they were your words Mr Fox

[rodgerfox]

For a start, the concept that we finished 8th is just moronic.

We won 14 games for the year, finished off the top 4 by % then 'hosted' a final at our opponents home ground. Lost 4 crucial players during the game, which added to the several underdone and hampered players we already had.

Yet nearly held on and pinched it.

I thought our 2006 was a very, very good effort. A fantastic effort.

Oh come on rodger give it a rest...GT is GONE, he had some qualities, but he had significant failings as well. Why do you think two successive administrations want nothing to do with him?

Unless you are stupid enough to believe everything he says, then you must accept that he had his chance over 5 years, and ultimately failed. He is damaged goods and he is done with coaching.

Btw, we fell over the line against port and essendon in 2006. We were very lucky. We should have finished with 12 wins...

Give it a rest???

I was responding to a direct question. A direct question about my thoughts on the 2006 season. And you ask me to give it a rest??

You don't think I should have replied?