Lyon - Long Term? Or 'the next step'?

[spert]

The more I think about it, the more I think that a premiership will help Lyon's cause no end - and kicking more goals than the opposition is the key to winning.
I went on holidays to Bonnie Doon once but nothing much changed when I got back, but that was years ago.
Oh yeah, and until Lenny and NDS learn to shake close tags, we will have to find other players in the midfield, and until Gehrig beats Scarlett in one-on-one contests, we won't beat Geelong.
Life is a breeze!

[markp]

I just hope RL reads this... if we're 9 points up with 2 minutes to go in the GF Rossy, don't flood or try to hold the ball up just to improve your win/loss ratio... and if that scenario is reversed, don't deviate from the game plan or recklessly bomb the ball forward... It would be very disappointing... and stay the F*** away from Bonnie Doon.

[saintsRrising]

don't flood .

In the terminology of this thread you mean have your mids work less hard...

[saintsRrising]

I went on holidays to Bonnie Doon once but nothing much changed when I got back, but that was years ago.

For it to work....it is two step process.....Firstly you needed to have gone to watch The Day After Tomorrow....wait a bit and then go to Bonnie Doon.

It is about process..you have to get the process right or it just will not work.

Bonnie Doon without the movie was just never going to work well for you.

[markp]

don't flood .

In the terminology of this thread you mean have your mids work less hard...

No, that would be fine.

[markp]

I think rather than go to Bonnie Doon and watch a movie about New York, they should have gone to New York and watched a film about Bonnie Doon (The Castle, obviously).

We'll never know what could have been....

[rodgerfox]

You have missed the point by so far it's not funny.

By the way, the 'muscle memory' thing is actually one of Leigh Matthews'.

When Lenny gets the ball and looks up, he knows Gehrig will be there. When Gehrig sees Lenny get the ball, he knows exactly where Lenny will turn etc. etc. .

what happens when gehrig is injured does lenny look up and kick it to where Gehrig should be adapting and modifying a game plan is the only way to keep one set ahead through out GT's Reighn we were constantly copying sucessful teams not making out own style hence why we fell over

It's not that Lenny knows Gehrig will be there, it's that whoever is playing that role, will be there.

Based on your posts, in particular this one, I'm going to safely assume you haven't played footy.

If you did, you'd know that when you get the nut you don't think about what the coach has told you.

You do what comes naturally in the heat of the moment. What comes naturally, is where Leigh Matthews' concept of 'muscle memory' comes into it.

It's learning to do the right thing, when the heat is on. Without having to stop and think about it. It becomes second nature.

It's basically what good teams get right, over time. It's called cohesion.

I personally don't like the term 'muscle memory'. I don't think it accurately describes the concept.

[saintsRrising]

I'll help you out Rodg.....

Muscle Memory = - Unconscious Competence


*the skill becomes so practised that it enters the unconscious parts of the brain - it becomes 'second nature'
*common examples are driving, sports activities, typing, manual dexterity tasks, listening and communicating


Hardly a trade secret and anyone that has been involved with educating or training people etc will most likely have been walked through the conscious competence learning matrix.

[rodgerfox]

We didn't 'flood' as such. Our midfield simply worked harder. Therefore, they were sometimes deep in defense. They covered more gound.

Ah ha....now I understand why you say that the Saints only had a Plan A.

Your Plan A is very flexible.

Paul Roos' only has a Plan A.

Leigh Matthew, Mark Thompson and John Worsfold all publicly state they only have a Plan A.

A good Plan A is of course flexible.

Though I don't agree with your interpretation.,,,,,nor why GT prior to that would have been content to have a midfield that was not working hard enough.

I strongly doubt, infact I know for a fact, that GT was not content to have a midfield that wasn't working hard enough. I strongly doubt that Ross Lyon is right now either.

And if muscle memory has the Saints always in set parts of the ground........why does working harder suddenly find them in different parts of the ground??? Or does muscle memory automatically adjust with workrate?

Of course it does.

It's like you walking on to an AFL ground. You know what to do, but can you actually do it?

Can you sprint 120m to a contest, then sprint 120m back to another contest? Then win the contest, and kick to a target?

We all know that's what should be done, but unless we're fit enough and working hard enough - we're not going to be able to do it.

As I said above, the term 'muscle memory' I don't like. I prefer the term 'instinct'.

It's a matter of changing your own natural instinct over time, to that of what the coach wants you to do. It's a matter of all 21 of your teammates understanding what it is you will do when the adrenalin is pumping.

It's actually one reaosn why AFL is very boring compared to what it was. Too many players have their natural instincts coached out of them.

Lyon is coaching certain things our of certain payers right now. And coaching certain things into certain players. They can practice it on the track as much as they like, but when you have milli seconds to make a decision, you'll more ofthen than not revert back t your natural instincts unless you've practised it over and over as team under match conditions.

See Stephen Milne for example.

It's not a new philosphy at all.

[rodgerfox]

I'll help you out Rodg.....

Muscle Memory = - Unconscious Competence


*the skill becomes so practised that it enters the unconscious parts of the brain - it becomes 'second nature'
*common examples are driving, sports activities, typing, manual dexterity tasks, listening and communicating


Hardly a trade secret and anyone that has been involved with educating or training people etc will most likely have been walked through the conscious competence learning matrix.

If you're familiar with the concept, why would you post what you did above?

You would also understand that it can't be practised effectively on the training track, and match conditions are the only real way to get it ingrained.

Michael Diamond the shooter, says that he doesn't really train at all.

He finds it of no benefit, because during the heat of competition he simply relies on his instinct - something he can't get or duplicate in training.

Lyon will be doing the same thing. And I certainly hope he sticks to it.

[saintsRrising]

If you're familiar with the concept,
.

I am more than a tad familar and have been involved with educational and training programs for kids..to industrial and construction workers..to uni students to post graduate education.....with a smattering of overseas aid program as well...

why would you post what you did above?

Because I think they were told to flood and did not merely work harder.

Working harder would have them just doing what they were trained to do and not branching out in a different role....one that they would have had to have been trained for rather than independtly launched into by working harder.

Michael Diamond the shooter, says that he doesn't really train at all.

He finds it of no benefit, because during the heat of competition he simply relies on his instinct - something he can't get or duplicate in training.

Lyon will be doing the same thing. And I certainly hope he sticks to it.

I think you will find that he is just one of the freaks that comes along that can doing things naturally.....like Gary Ablett.


Most people have to work at it....amd most sporting elite while blessed with a natural head start and are "better than the average bear'....have to work at it or be surpassed bya competitor.

[markp]

I just hope RL reads this... if we're 9 points up with 2 minutes to go in the GF Rossy, don't flood or try to hold the ball up just to improve your win/loss ratio... and if that scenario is reversed, don't deviate from the game plan or recklessly bomb the ball forward... It would be very disappointing... and stay the F*** away from Bonnie Doon.

Another who hasn't played footy. And if you have, I'm tipping you weren't one of your coaches favourites.

If Lyon doesn't have a plan that him and team have been working on for situations like the one you mention above, we need a new coach. Fast.

What a stupid thing to suggest.

The key is, that the team know this plan for that exact scenario and all know exactly what do to. They don't just wing it on the day. They will have practised it in training, and executed it on game day. Executed it consistently so if we are in a GF and in front with 2 minutes to go, we'd be confident of carrying out the plan with 100% success.

That is the whole point.

The whole point is you have no point. My point is simply that this is the most meaningless and inane thread I think I have ever read.

You can keep dining out on your 'glory days' playing for the Shytesville 3rd's and your intimate one-on-one fireside chats with the great GT till the cows come home... but people are free to take the piss out of you when you do.

You either take yourself waaay too seriously, or you are completely ripping the piss.

[rodgerfox]

Most people have to work at it....amd most sporting elite while blessed with a natural head start and are "better than the average bear'....have to work at it or be surpassed bya competitor.

Sure.

All I'm saying is that I believe Lyon isn't stupid, and is simply sticking to his plan. This is why he appears to not react and respond with changes to our style.

I believe he is planning for long term, and sometimes this means short term pain.

[rodgerfox]

I just hope RL reads this... if we're 9 points up with 2 minutes to go in the GF Rossy, don't flood or try to hold the ball up just to improve your win/loss ratio... and if that scenario is reversed, don't deviate from the game plan or recklessly bomb the ball forward... It would be very disappointing... and stay the F*** away from Bonnie Doon.

Another who hasn't played footy. And if you have, I'm tipping you weren't one of your coaches favourites.

If Lyon doesn't have a plan that him and team have been working on for situations like the one you mention above, we need a new coach. Fast.

What a stupid thing to suggest.

The key is, that the team know this plan for that exact scenario and all know exactly what do to. They don't just wing it on the day. They will have practised it in training, and executed it on game day. Executed it consistently so if we are in a GF and in front with 2 minutes to go, we'd be confident of carrying out the plan with 100% success.

That is the whole point.

[saintsRrising]

Most people have to work at it....amd most sporting elite while blessed with a natural head start and are "better than the average bear'....have to work at it or be surpassed bya competitor.

Sure.

All I'm saying is that I believe Lyon isn't stupid, and is simply sticking to his plan. This is why he appears to not react and respond with changes to our style.

I believe he is planning for long term, and sometimes this means short term pain.

Well that I agree with.....

I think Lyon is also still sorting through the players to get what he wants...

He is patient and is waiting for some to click into pace......such as Goose and possibly Dempster.


However I think some will also test his patience and he will move to another option. I think Raph is an example here.

[rodgerfox]

Most people have to work at it....amd most sporting elite while blessed with a natural head start and are "better than the average bear'....have to work at it or be surpassed bya competitor.

Sure.

All I'm saying is that I believe Lyon isn't stupid, and is simply sticking to his plan. This is why he appears to not react and respond with changes to our style.

I believe he is planning for long term, and sometimes this means short term pain.

Well that I agree with.....

I think Lyon is also still sorting through the players to get what he wants...

He is patient and is waiting for some to click into pace......such as Goose and possibly Dempster.


However I think some will also test his patience and he will move to another option. I think Raph is an example here.

I said changing coach meant a rebuild when GT was sacked.

Many strongly disagreed.

The problem with the timing of the sacking, was that the incumbent effectively missed one trade period.

Delayed the inevitable another year.


As for Raph, we need him. He's not dominating right now, but realistically he shouldn't be expected to.

He's the type of player you draft and spend 3-4 years devloping. We have him, why start all over again? We've got to be patient. Losing Goose tragically in the way we did, has proven that you simply must persevere with certain types of players.

BJ is one that required time. Sam Fisher another. I remember the outrage when he was playing on Lloyd and Richo and the likes. People wanted him dropped and hog tied. The facts were we simply needed him to come good, and we had to invest the time in him. Even if it meant potentially dropping a game by playing him in 'learning roles'.

I think we need to do the same with Raph.

[rodgerfox]

I should just add, that 'learning roles' go far smoother when your mature and experienced guys are on the park with the young guys.

It's why injuries hurt so much. Playing Raph in a key role when Max and Goose are also missing is very different to giving him a key role with Max and Goose on either side of him.

That's the tough posi we're in now, and to be frank have been for years. Trying to blood and develop guys whilst having key players in the grandstand.

Geelong were able to slide a guy like Selwood whilst Bartel, Ablett, Enright etc. were flying. Makes the development and transition so much easier.

Raph has played most of his games in a decimated defence. That cannot be underestimated.

[meher baba]

I just don't get this thread.

Face facts: Lyon's "Plan A" isn't any bloody good. It is derived from Lyon's total lack of confidence and his resulting tendency mostly to copy what the Swans have done for the last umpteen years: flooding, retreating, coralling, chipping, etc. Every now and then he has a rush of blood to the head and permits long balls to the forward line.

What he has not done is to develop a game plan based upon attacking the ball. If he develops a plan A that includes that element, I'll feel far more comfortable.

[rodgerfox]

I just don't get this thread.

Face facts: Lyon's "Plan A" isn't any bloody good. It is derived from Lyon's total lack of confidence and his resulting tendency mostly to copy what the Swans have done for the last umpteen years: flooding, retreating, coralling, chipping, etc. Every now and then he has a rush of blood to the head and permits long balls to the forward line.

What he has not done is to develop a game plan based upon attacking the ball. If he develops a plan A that includes that element, I'll feel far more comfortable.

Remember though Meher Baba, that when GT took over he was chastised by all football circles for the type of footy we were playing.

When we played the nil all draw against Sydney by massive flooding, which we tried to emulate the following week against Collingwood, the football world was cursing Thomas for the demise of footy as we knew it.

The problem is, that we were lied to. We were duped into thinking that we were chaning coach simply to 'take the next step'. This was never the case.

Thomas was sacked for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time.

Now due to that, we nee to rebuild under a new coach. New players, new plan, new style. It takes time.

Whether we agree with the change or not, it's happened. Now, we all start the long road back.

[markp]

I just don't get this thread.

Face facts: Lyon's "Plan A" isn't any bloody good. It is derived from Lyon's total lack of confidence and his resulting tendency mostly to copy what the Swans have done for the last umpteen years: flooding, retreating, coralling, chipping, etc. Every now and then he has a rush of blood to the head and permits long balls to the forward line.

What he has not done is to develop a game plan based upon attacking the ball. If he develops a plan A that includes that element, I'll feel far more comfortable.

Remember though Meher Baba, that when GT took over he was chastised by all football circles for the type of footy we were playing.

When we played the nil all draw against Sydney by massive flooding, which we tried to emulate the following week against Collingwood, the football world was cursing Thomas for the demise of footy as we knew it.

The problem is, that we were lied to. We were duped into thinking that we were chaning coach simply to 'take the next step'. This was never the case.

Thomas was sacked for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time.

Now due to that, we nee to rebuild under a new coach. New players, new plan, new style. It takes time.

Whether we agree with the change or not, it's happened. Now, we all start the long road back.

Yep, you are ripping the piss completely... if he was sacked at the wrong time it was probably too late, and not to 'take the next step' obviously, but because he was a divisive control freak who couldn't deliver.

You vacillate from stating the bleeding obvious (it all takes time?? Wow!) to absolute bollocks, and waffle on and on and on ("oh, I was in the shower with GT the other day, talking about when I played for the shytesville 3rd's...") ...zzzzzzz.

Remember though Meher Baba, that when GT took over he was chastised by all football circles for the type of footy we were playing.

When we played the nil all draw against Sydney by massive flooding, which we tried to emulate the following week against Collingwood, the football world was cursing Thomas for the demise of footy as we knew it.

Yes! Let's all discuss the 'nil all draw' with Sydney and its wider ramifications for GT, the Saints and football in general!... But personally I'd rather put my tackle in a vice if you don't mind.... We have a massive game on Saturday to look forward to and you just twaddle on and on with revisionist crap and the bleeding obvious. Crikey.

[rodgerfox]

Yes! Let's all discuss the 'nil all draw' with Sydney and its wider ramifications for GT, the Saints and football in general!... But personally I'd rather put my tackle in a vice if you don't mind.... We have a massive game on Saturday to look forward to and you just twaddle on and on with revisionist crap and the bleeding obvious. Crikey.

Yet you respond?

[barks4eva]

Yes! Let's all discuss the 'nil all draw' with Sydney and its wider ramifications for GT, the Saints and football in general!... But personally I'd rather put my tackle in a vice if you don't mind.... We have a massive game on Saturday to look forward to and you just twaddle on and on with revisionist crap and the bleeding obvious. Crikey.

Yet you respond?

and a very appropriate response at that


twaddle on

[JohnMac]

I do not think there is any need to make wholesale changes.

But there does need to be some tightening up on the oppostion running out of their defence; the St Kilda Team is letting them run out fairly easily which means the ball is coming into our 50 far too easily and giving our defenders more work than they would want

[brown-coat]

Lyon is the backward sttep.

No not really...

It's just unfortunate that he has inherited such a useless slow ineffective plodding midfield. There's not much he can do when they're all terrified of kicking goals and get run around by their faster opponents.

[rodgerfox]

Interesting quote form Lyon during the press conference last night.....

"Going forward, there is a spot for Fraser in our team, but it's about team defence and then once we get all the other mechanics right and they are a given, that will allow the three key forwards.

"We are working on that to get it to a level where it will allow Fraser to play, and the three talls, (but) it will take a little bit of time."


So it seems that we are effectively learning from scratch, and perhaps sacrificing short term gain to really get things right in prep for the long term.

Very, very pleased to hear what Lyon said.

Long term. Get it right, get it down pat then start to use some creative thinking.