Fraser Gehrig is he worth it?
Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 4243
- Joined: Thu 25 Mar 2004 2:47pm
- Location: incarnate
- Has thanked: 286 times
- Been thanked: 694 times
Fraser Gehrig is he worth it?
Fraser is a favourite of mine but with the way the game is going I'm really questioning the cost/ benefit ratio.
When Fraser is dominating he is obviously a great asset, he occasionally wins a game of his own boot it is true but I think there are substantial negatives that outweigh the positives.
1. His defensive play is non-existent. He can't turn sideways, no second effort, his man becomes the free man when the defence turns over our inside 50 entry, and he hasn't laid a tackle in the last 3 years.
2. He never breaks a pack open. A guy his size should smash packs to bits, but Fraser almost never does. He gets outmarked overhead more often than not and can be too easily shepherded away from a contest.
3. Kosi operates much better when he is the one nominated full forward, he does crash packs and take contested marks better than anyone in the side. Either he changes his game or gets confused in the fwd line when Fraser and Roo are there and his input drops off.
4. With Gardiner and King in the side we can use them as resting forward pocket to stretch the defence. Both good contested marks themselves and used by their former clubs in this capacity. Kosi and Roo are enough to have as key talls. Add the resting ruckman or Charlie Gardiner as a Ryan O'Keefe style running HFF and it will be much better balanced.
5. He keeps a younger developing player out, whether that is Charlie Gardiner, or another midfield rotation like Armo, Birss, Jones.
A forward line of Roo, Kosi, Schneider, Milne, C. Gardiner and either the Resting ruckman, or a Clarke brother or even Goddard would be a better combo with more flexibility and defence than the current set-up.
Would love to have Fraser on an extended bench where he could come on and be tested, but benched if its not working. With the 4 man bench you can't afford to carry a player that can only play in one postion.
I also recognise his worth when he is firing...he will probably kick 6 on Scarlett next week.
When Fraser is dominating he is obviously a great asset, he occasionally wins a game of his own boot it is true but I think there are substantial negatives that outweigh the positives.
1. His defensive play is non-existent. He can't turn sideways, no second effort, his man becomes the free man when the defence turns over our inside 50 entry, and he hasn't laid a tackle in the last 3 years.
2. He never breaks a pack open. A guy his size should smash packs to bits, but Fraser almost never does. He gets outmarked overhead more often than not and can be too easily shepherded away from a contest.
3. Kosi operates much better when he is the one nominated full forward, he does crash packs and take contested marks better than anyone in the side. Either he changes his game or gets confused in the fwd line when Fraser and Roo are there and his input drops off.
4. With Gardiner and King in the side we can use them as resting forward pocket to stretch the defence. Both good contested marks themselves and used by their former clubs in this capacity. Kosi and Roo are enough to have as key talls. Add the resting ruckman or Charlie Gardiner as a Ryan O'Keefe style running HFF and it will be much better balanced.
5. He keeps a younger developing player out, whether that is Charlie Gardiner, or another midfield rotation like Armo, Birss, Jones.
A forward line of Roo, Kosi, Schneider, Milne, C. Gardiner and either the Resting ruckman, or a Clarke brother or even Goddard would be a better combo with more flexibility and defence than the current set-up.
Would love to have Fraser on an extended bench where he could come on and be tested, but benched if its not working. With the 4 man bench you can't afford to carry a player that can only play in one postion.
I also recognise his worth when he is firing...he will probably kick 6 on Scarlett next week.
Nee!
- Saintschampions08
- Club Player
- Posts: 732
- Joined: Thu 31 Jan 2008 11:04am
Re: Fraser Gehrig is he worth it?
I'll give you my credit card details and expiry date if he doesfugazi wrote:I also recognise his worth when he is firing...he will probably kick 6 on Scarlett next week.
He hasn't beaten a good defender since '04. As much as i loved him, i was glad and positive when i heard he retired.
Did nothing to change my mind this week, neither did kicking 4 against Carlton.
- FraserGehrig
- Club Player
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Fri 04 Apr 2008 9:37pm
- Location: Tasmania
frase
i love watching frase when hes on fire. but he has struggle a fair bit over the past year, but the one thing he does do is take away the opponents 1st or 2nd best defender, leaving kosi or roo with a 3rd defender. eg he took brian lake who is the dogs number 1 defender. against geelong he'll probably take scarlett.
Hi
Because you said he hadn't laid a tackle in years, I looked it up.
I wasn't sure if this was accurate or not.
I looked at the following stats website:
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-s ... ser-gehrig
It says that he laid 14 tackles last year, and 12 in the year before that.
So far this year, it has him at 11kicks, 6 marks, 5 goals 2 behinds.
So it seems to me that his ratio of possessions to goals is still pretty good - near 50%, but he needs to get the ball more.
Cheers
Mark
Because you said he hadn't laid a tackle in years, I looked it up.
I wasn't sure if this was accurate or not.
I looked at the following stats website:
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-s ... ser-gehrig
It says that he laid 14 tackles last year, and 12 in the year before that.
So far this year, it has him at 11kicks, 6 marks, 5 goals 2 behinds.
So it seems to me that his ratio of possessions to goals is still pretty good - near 50%, but he needs to get the ball more.
Cheers
Mark
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 18605
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
- Has thanked: 1950 times
- Been thanked: 853 times
is fraser still worth it? yes.
he's a reliable avenue to goal in a team that has struggled to put a score on the board this season and last.
if you're judging him on friday night, then don't.
the ball hardly got down there after quarter time and when it did delivery was haphazard and under extreme pressure.
my concern about the forward line is not fraser, nor is it kosi. it is our extreme reliance and dependence on riewoldt.
personally i'd give roo a run on the wing for a while with kosi chf, gilbert hff and fraser ff.
this might stop our players having eyes only for the big blond superstar and they might discover there are other ways to put a score on the board, including kicking one themselves.
roo would play wing differently to anyone else and would still be able to go forward and kick goals.
but, as i've said in other posts, the forward set up wasn't the culprit on friday night.
we were smashed and obliterated in the middle and i can't remember anyone getting a clean possession anywhere after quarter time.
to put it simply, we couldn't get the ball because the bulldogs had it.
i'd say that cj and armitage are walk-up starts this week
he's a reliable avenue to goal in a team that has struggled to put a score on the board this season and last.
if you're judging him on friday night, then don't.
the ball hardly got down there after quarter time and when it did delivery was haphazard and under extreme pressure.
my concern about the forward line is not fraser, nor is it kosi. it is our extreme reliance and dependence on riewoldt.
personally i'd give roo a run on the wing for a while with kosi chf, gilbert hff and fraser ff.
this might stop our players having eyes only for the big blond superstar and they might discover there are other ways to put a score on the board, including kicking one themselves.
roo would play wing differently to anyone else and would still be able to go forward and kick goals.
but, as i've said in other posts, the forward set up wasn't the culprit on friday night.
we were smashed and obliterated in the middle and i can't remember anyone getting a clean possession anywhere after quarter time.
to put it simply, we couldn't get the ball because the bulldogs had it.
i'd say that cj and armitage are walk-up starts this week
Hes Worth it he kicked 59 goals last year Kosi i dont think can do that
(yet) kosi is not the best kick for kick and if the Midfield kick it down to him he can kick a bag but they dont get it to him enough...
Big Cark im with you Let Riewoldt on the Wing and Kosi HB and Frase Right in the goal square. Look at 2004 when he stayed in the qoal Square alot he kick 103 goals
(yet) kosi is not the best kick for kick and if the Midfield kick it down to him he can kick a bag but they dont get it to him enough...
Big Cark im with you Let Riewoldt on the Wing and Kosi HB and Frase Right in the goal square. Look at 2004 when he stayed in the qoal Square alot he kick 103 goals
Follow me for my expert opinions on Twitter @DanielClark93
-
- Club Player
- Posts: 1404
- Joined: Fri 26 May 2006 4:29pm
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 132 times
Roo is not the problem. He is the only player presenting at half forward.bigcarl wrote:
my concern about the forward line is not fraser, nor is it kosi. it is our extreme reliance and dependence on riewoldt.
personally i'd give roo a run on the wing for a while with kosi chf, gilbert hff and fraser ff.
this might stop our players having eyes only for the big blond superstar and they might discover there are other ways to put a score on the board, including kicking one themselves.
roo would play wing differently to anyone else and would still be able to go forward and kick goals.
Our reliance on Roo is due IMO to the game plan. Our flankers are all up the ground.
The game plan doesn’t work.
Roo has exceptional aerobic ability. Our flankers don’t. Our flankers are invariably on the wing or back line when Roo presents at HF (with 2 or 3 opponents). There is no-one else to kick to.
Our forward line solution lies in our flankers kicking goals.
Our flankers should not only be accountable for their man but also kicking goals.
RL needs to change his game plan so our flankers become dangerous. They are rarely there when the ball is kicked down. Its not enough. Obviously the big guys will struggle without support. Its very easy to take out a big man when you out number him. Just get the ball to the ground.
IMO our smalls, mids, flankers cannot handle the basket ball game plan that RL wants from them. But our bigs do a reasonably good job given the lack of support the game plan gives them – regardless Kosi is now looking an ordinary footballer due to the complete stupidity of playing a gun out of position.
Kosi is not a KPP forward. He doesn’t know where to lead and he doesn't have the pace off the lead. 2 years running it has been proved.
But our real problem in the forward line is the smalls ... not the talls.
I'd like to remind all of you that the Big G rarely puts in two shockers in a row.
Last years retirement was really not a retirement, he was back training in as good a shape as any other year so I'll ask you this.
If Fraser did not "retire" last season and simply played on and got beaten this week by the Doggies, would any of you be asking this question?
Or would you be saying" Sh!t eh, the big fella got beat by Lake/Harris/2dads or whatever his name is, look out next week"!!!
Thats what i am saying.
When he meanders out onto the park, he will demand the best backman going round in any team and it will have to be a gorilla, how many teams have one these days?
Ignore him at your own peril
195cm/105kg forwards who are capable of kicking 60 odd ayear dont grow on tree's and they dont come much better than our G Train.
And cost your side a lazy 150k for that matter!!!
All the best for a crap week Sainters
Roll on Saturday Arvo!!
Last years retirement was really not a retirement, he was back training in as good a shape as any other year so I'll ask you this.
If Fraser did not "retire" last season and simply played on and got beaten this week by the Doggies, would any of you be asking this question?
Or would you be saying" Sh!t eh, the big fella got beat by Lake/Harris/2dads or whatever his name is, look out next week"!!!
Thats what i am saying.
When he meanders out onto the park, he will demand the best backman going round in any team and it will have to be a gorilla, how many teams have one these days?
Ignore him at your own peril
195cm/105kg forwards who are capable of kicking 60 odd ayear dont grow on tree's and they dont come much better than our G Train.
And cost your side a lazy 150k for that matter!!!
All the best for a crap week Sainters
Roll on Saturday Arvo!!
Followed Saints since '71
Sir Robert Harvey was my favorite player
Stewie Lowe and Plugger before that.
Loved watching Rooey and Jack Steven
Now looking forward to the future
Some people make things happen, some people watch things happen, but most just say " What the f#&k happened!".
Sir Robert Harvey was my favorite player
Stewie Lowe and Plugger before that.
Loved watching Rooey and Jack Steven
Now looking forward to the future
Some people make things happen, some people watch things happen, but most just say " What the f#&k happened!".
- bigred
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 11463
- Joined: Tue 09 Mar 2004 7:39am
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 609 times
Of course not...Goody wrote:I'd like to remind all of you that the Big G rarely puts in two shockers in a row.
Last years retirement was really not a retirement, he was back training in as good a shape as any other year so I'll ask you this.
If Fraser did not "retire" last season and simply played on and got beaten this week by the Doggies, would any of you be asking this question?
Or would you be saying" Sh!t eh, the big fella got beat by Lake/Harris/2dads or whatever his name is, look out next week"!!!
Thats what i am saying.
When he meanders out onto the park, he will demand the best backman going round in any team and it will have to be a gorilla, how many teams have one these days?
Ignore him at your own peril
195cm/105kg forwards who are capable of kicking 60 odd ayear dont grow on tree's and they dont come much better than our G Train.
And cost your side a lazy 150k for that matter!!!
All the best for a crap week Sainters
Roll on Saturday Arvo!!
This place is just one great big jerking knee after a loss.
nice and rosy after a win...
"Now the ball is loose, it gives St. Kilda a rough chance. Black. Good handpass. Voss. Schwarze now, the defender, can run and from a long way".....
- The_Dud
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 13905
- Joined: Sun 27 May 2007 9:53pm
- Location: Bendigo
- Has thanked: 1314 times
- Been thanked: 2077 times
-
- Saintsational Legend
- Posts: 18605
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
- Has thanked: 1950 times
- Been thanked: 853 times
you make some valid points about the gameplan and are right that the basketball style we now play often means no-one at home in our forward line.Shaggy wrote:Our flankers are invariably on the wing or back line when Roo presents at HF (with 2 or 3 opponents). There is no-one else to kick to.
it is painful and frustrating to watch as to me a forward's main function is to get it and kick a goal rather than traipse all over telstra dome worrying about an opponent.
RL should re-define the role of a forward from "be accountable for your man" to "make your man accountable for you".
this might not be tactically sound and will outrage the purists but it wouldn't worry me too much if our forwards don't always follow their opponents up the field. they can just take advantage of having a stuffed opponent or no-one on them at all once the ball comes back in.
having said all that i think we are still too reliant on riewoldt.
i know this because the problem was just as bad under another coach and using a different gameplan.
i'd give him a run on the wing for a while and try to develop more than the one avenue to goal. us looking for him every time we go forward just makes us so predictable and easy to counter.
how about a front half looking something like this:
HF: Dal Santo, Kosi, Gilbert
F: Milne, Gehrig, Schneider
roo, superstar that he is, would still be able to kick a few from the wing anyway.
in any case, against geelong what do we have to lose? might as well shake things up a bit and try a few things they might not expect.
end rant
Last edited by bigcarl on Mon 07 Apr 2008 3:06am, edited 2 times in total.
- robsaint
- Club Player
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:41pm
- Location: the cage
- Been thanked: 3 times
Observation I have made over the pst few years about KOSI and G-Train. KOSI does not play that well in the forward line when ROO is in the side. Remember when ROO was injured and KOSI had his return he was close to best on ground 3 weeks in a row. Also in the NAB cup played well when ROO was not there. G-Train allows KOSI to take the marks in front of the pack. He uses his strength to keep the other defenders out of the contest so KOSI is able to compete one on one or come in from the side. G-Train legally sheparrds the other defenders out of the contest.
May be we should try ROO on the wing( he has the running capacity) or CHB just for some new remeber he played there for a while and did reasonably well.
Not telling anyone anything they don't already know.
May be we should try ROO on the wing( he has the running capacity) or CHB just for some new remeber he played there for a while and did reasonably well.
Not telling anyone anything they don't already know.
This is spot on... Sure defensive pressure and sacrificing ones game etc are all very popular at the monent, but at the end of the day, he is a key forward, and his main job is to kick goals.. everything else is secondary...The_Dud wrote:Gehrig is still our best genuine forward, he is vital to our team
give him some decent delivery and you'll see the goals come, it ain't rocket science
Yes, he is still of great value to the team..
Additionally, he is our only forward who is a consistantly wonderful kick for goal.. At set shots, Roo, Kosi and Milne (increasingly so) are dreadful shots at goal.. Fraser has a great conversion rate anywhere from 55m..
Cant expect him to do much when our mids get smashed and are lazy, as was with the weekend.. I expected Fraser to get slagged this week, but he was not/is not the problem... If Dal, Joey, Lenny et al fire this week, Fraser will bounce back..