Footy Classified/The Australian....Riewoldt to CHB

[rodgerfox]

He makes it sound so simple. Coaching is pretty easy, ey?


What he is basically suggesting, is exactly what we've had in place in the past. 2 big forwards (Roo and G), with Milne and another small at their feet (we've had to use a resting mid in this role until along came a Schneider) with a medium/tall forward leading up - this was Hamill then Brett Voss, this was also why Watts was recruited.

It does work. And I do agree that we are in most games, 1 tall too many. Now that C. Gardiner is at the club along with Schneider, we do now have the tools to revert back to this.

However, Roo wouldn't be the one who I'd remove from the forward line. Opposition fans bag him for getting alot of his marks on the wing - cheap kicks as they say.

However, he doesn't chase cheap kicks - he's forced to play this role. And he is excellent at it. Jonothan Brown used to do this also when they had Lynch. Now that Lynch is gone, Brown stays deep. Barry Hall used to do it also, but then the perfect 'lead-up forward' came along in O'Keefe, and now he stays closer to home whilst O'Keefe creates the link.

What we do need, is someone to play the lead up role and allow Roo to stay closer to goal. Kosi is too slow for it, and not great when it hits the deck. Fraser Gehrig would actually be very good at this, now that his hands have healed and appears to be able to take marks in is hands. His fitness may be an issue? Hard to tell, but he looks pretty fit to me.

Charlie Gardiner is an average footballer - and appears to know this himself. His body language suggests he lacks confidence. Often the difference between an ordinary player and a gun, is simply a matter of their own opinion - if the player thinks he's a gun, then often he will be. If a player thinks he's a plodder deep down, then that's what they are. He needs a spring in his step. He needs to believe he's a gun. I don't think he does right now.


My option?

Robbing Peter to pay Paul here, but Nick Dal Santo should be played in a lead-up role. He's deceptively tall and a very good mark. Certainly can find the ball, and when he gets it uses it well. He's fit and quite fast.

I'd like to see Dal as our 'lead-up forward' for a while. Just like O'Keefe does for Sydney. If the ball hits the deck, I'd back Dal 9 times out of 10. His defensive pressure is fantastic, and his tackling first rate. HE's fit enough to do it all day long too.

Obviously the cons are, we're taking our most creative mid out of the centre. But we do have that extra depth at the moment due to our short injury list (touch wood) so now is a good time to do it.

Here's what our forward structure would look like - Gehrig and Roo in the square, with Milne 15m in front of them. With Dal and Scheider both starting in the true CHF posi. Dal plays the lead-up role with Schneider as his partner.

Kosi starts back as a loose man and pretty much does what he wants. Becomes a defensive follower. Strongly encourage to drift forward at every chance.

[rodgerfox]

Lyon would have thought when Gehrig retired that he had solved a problem no matter how gifted the full-forward was in kicking goals. The big man does not have the mind-set or the aerobic ability to chase down defenders, spook them with unrelenting stalking. Without sustained pestering the opposition defence can move the ball out of the backline in preparation for an attack of their own. So there might just have been a clash of wills between coach and board.

What a bizarre comment.

Elvis might also crash a spaceship into the Lochness Monster one day too.

Pretty long bow being drawn there Patrick.

[ausfatcat]

Nick Riewoldt for cameo roles in the ruck

Says everything about Smith, when has Roo played ruck?


Roo is a accurate kick for Goal as his stats show, and the best contested mark in the AFL. Why would you play someone like that at CHB?

One game our forward line has not played well, isn't it a bit premature to start making changes now?

[st.byron]

[quote="BanGerS"]By patrick....


But what about the coach? Lyon is a staunch believer that the forward line applies absolute pressure on defenders when the ball is loose. Stephen Milne is on notice that if he does not harass, tackle and chase then his position in the side is not guaranteed. No matter if he kicks a goal or two.

Lyon would have thought when Gehrig retired that he had solved a problem no matter how gifted the full-forward was in kicking goals. The big man does not have the mind-set or the aerobic ability to chase down defenders, spook them with unrelenting stalking. (quote)

What a tool this guy is at times. Fraser kicked four goals and was very effective in his role.
As for moving Roo to CHB, I don't think it's a good option. Anoher thread has had quite a bit of discussion about using Kosi across half-back and thats because some feel that Kosi is not shining at FF.
I think we should just leave the big three in the forward 50 for a while at least and give them a chance to gel together. No doubt Roo would make a great CHB, a bit like Chad Cornes, but with Goose and BJ to come back in there's no need to mess with the forward set-up. Even without Goose and BJ Max and Sam Fisher are doing a great job as key defenders.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Nick Riewoldt for cameo roles in the ruck

Says everything about Smith, when has Roo played ruck?


Roo is a accurate kick for Goal as his stats show, and the best contested mark in the AFL. Why would you play someone like that at CHB?

One game our forward line has not played well, isn't it a bit premature to start making changes now?

i think the last time roo played ruck was...against freo at tassie...might have been sirengate...if not the game before that at tassie

i remember thinking that gt had lost his marbles...so did the commentators

[Saints94]

Are they trying to be funny we have goose returning from injury and max and samy are doing great

[aussiejones]

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"carey played chb" ... also played the fool !!!!!!

[Saints94]

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"carey played chb" ... also played the fool !!!!!!

So did Neitz

[bigcarl]

People seem to forget a game in the pre-season ... it was against Geelong ... the first half featured Roo, G and Kosi up forward ... all three were playing great football ...

It can work. It didn't against the Blues, but don't write it off after one week.

people seem to be overlooking the fact that, for once, our forward line kicked goals (albiet against carlton).

we kicked 125 points and had eight separate goal-kickers.

so obsessed were carlton with minding the "big 3" that guys like milne, schneider and x-man were able to completely fly under the radar.

i'm not sure what people expect. riewoldt, gehrig and kosi to kick 5 plus each every week?

that won't happen and we don't need it to happen. all we need is one of them to break free and kick a bag and get reasonable contributions from everyone else.

despite fatpryk smith saying in the australian this morning that our forward line is too top heavy and cannot work, i feel strongly that RL should stick to his guns on this one.

the bulldog fans main concern this week is how to cover all of roo, gehrig and kosi and if i was them i'd have anxieties about it as well.

btw owts i think against geelong it was kosi, gehrig and allen (though i could be wrong).

doesn't matter. the principle is the same. three good talls can and will be made to work in the same forward line.

it is all about the team kicking a winning score ... something we didn't do often enough in 2007.

this week i'd have gram and bj on opposing wings pumping the ball forward long and direct to kosi at chf, fraser at ff and free roo up to roam the forward line at will using his enormous tank to burn off opponents.

it's a dangerous and potent mix given quick and direct delivery. that is the crucial thing. quick and direct delivery

[St George]

Not so crazy - Neil Roberts started his career at full forward but to quote Neil (page 226 Heroes With Halos) "I was kicking 1.11 and that sort of thing". He switched to centre half back and won the 1958 Brownlow.

[maverick]

Only problem is, Roo's vision in traffic is not great and turns the ball over a fair bit when he has the ball further up the ground....

Watch him closely, fantastic forward, cannot play as a mid and IMO would struggle down back because he would turn the ball over too much

Leave him where he is...

This year aside, I reckon he's an excellent field kick.

A bit like Harvey - just doesn't quite have the some confidence around goals.

I think his kicking is fine, its more his decision making.
Someone like BJ or Dal kick the ball hard to position and hits blokes on the chest, where Roo kicks floaters and sells blokes into trouble.
Maybe its because he doesn't spend enough time in the middle, but I cringe when he's passing the ball as much as CJ and Blake.

[rodgerfox]

I think his kicking is fine, its more his decision making.
Someone like BJ or Dal kick the ball hard to position and hits blokes on the chest, where Roo kicks floaters and sells blokes into trouble.
Maybe its because he doesn't spend enough time in the middle, but I cringe when he's passing the ball as much as CJ and Blake.

Notice how often Roo (almost every time) gets the ball up the ground, and gives a short kick sideways into the corridor?

He does it too much. On most occasions, it either holds us up (which may be the intention to give him time to run forward) or results in 'setting a bloke up'.

[evertonfc]

Ostracised by St Kilda a long time ago, Patrick Smith has no understanding of this football club on or off field, and his opinions cannot be given any greater weight than that afforded to internet posters.

[mad saint guy]

That's not too bad an idea. It would basically mean that we're playing with the same setup as in 2004, except with a quicker midfield and more rebounding defence.

B: S.Fisher, Hudghton, R.Clarke
HB: Gram, Riewoldt, Goddard
C: Fiora, Hayes, Montagna
HF: C.Gardiner, Koschitzke, X.Clarke
F: Milne, Gehrig, Schneider

Foll: M.Gardiner, Ball, Dal Santo
Int: Blake, L.Fisher, Harvey, King

Gardiner to be the lead up player coming out of defence/midfield, Kosi as the long target with any of X, Milne, or Schneider at his feet and Gehrig playing his usual role as the quick leading option deep forward. Roo wouldn't necessarily have to play on the opposition's best forward either. Max will take the most dangerous goalkicker and Chips and Raph would usually be able to handle the opposition's second tall forward.

Hamill - C.Gardiner
Maguire - Riewoldt
Penny - S.Fisher
Voss - R.Clarke
Jones - Gram
Black - Montagna
Guerra - Schneider
Powell - L.Fisher
Peckett - Fiora
Knobel - M.Gardiner
Blake (ruck) - King
Thompson - Blake (mid)

[saintwill66]

I am completely 100%, totally in favour of Roo playing CHB and I regard Patrick Smith's analysis absolutely correct. Against the Blues the Saints forward structure was dysfunctional, as is evident from Kosi's failure to be involved in the game. It has to be horses for courses, and the coaching panel has to be far more responsive and creative in adapting the team's line and KP structures against the opposition on the day, and situating Riewoldt at CHB, with King and (M) Gardiner drifting forward as required gives far greater balance to this supremely talented team.

The important thing to note in this debate is that having all 3 of Gehrig, Riewoldt and Koschitske failed miserably against Carlton, a game that the Saints should have won by 100 points, and I'm sure that Matthews, Malthouse or Williams would not have hesitated to put Riewoldt at CHB under those circumstance on the night ; against quality opposition the Saints cannot get the structures wrong or they'll get flogged.

[ausfatcat]

I am completely 100%, totally in favour of Roo playing CHB and I regard Patrick Smith's analysis absolutely correct. Against the Blues the Saints forward structure was dysfunctional, as is evident from Kosi's failure to be involved in the game. It has to be horses for courses, and the coaching panel has to be far more responsive and creative in adapting the team's line and KP structures against the opposition on the day, and situating Riewoldt at CHB, with King and (M) Gardiner drifting forward as required gives far greater balance to this supremely talented team.

The important thing to note in this debate is that having all 3 of Gehrig, Riewoldt and Koschitske failed miserably against Carlton, a game that the Saints should have won by 100 points, and I'm sure that Matthews, Malthouse or Williams would not have hesitated to put Riewoldt at CHB under those circumstance on the night ; against quality opposition the Saints cannot get the structures wrong or they'll get flogged.

ONE GAME FFS you change the whole team plan based on one game!!!! and take one of if not the best CHF out of that position? come on sit back and think about it for a little while.

[Spinner]

Dumbest of dumb idea....

Not the strongest contested mark, he would be just drawn back to the goalsquare by direct opponent......

How would he go one on one with monsters such as Brown, Pav, Hall, Tredders....

Could work against the dogs/adelaide....but

Take him from the fwd line we lose potency.....he isn't playing well and taking 11 marks....

I sort of envisioned him playing quite loose.....aka Chad Cornes and Leppetich of past.

[n1ck]

And what, when Goose finally comes back?

[midas_touch]

Indeed, it is rather foolish to dismiss our current forward setup after just one match. I'm sure Riewoldt would make a very decent CHB, but you cannot simply just start making changes after one moderate performance.

[Mr X from the West]

Anybody would think Sat night was the first time we've had the G, Roo and Kosi all playing together in the forward line.

In reality, they've played togther several times and the structure has worked very well.

I didn't see the game (or even hear it), thanks to media outlets here in WA, but I think Sat night's effort can be summed up as...Kosi had a bad night.

Big deal. Move on.

[TwoTowers]

It has concerned me that Ross hasn't seemed willing to play Roo at CHB. Up forward his decision-making frequently lets him down and his leads are often poor. I'm not saying never play him up forward and I wouldn't expect us to change things around this week against the Bulldogs who have height problems down back, but if we were looking down the barrel at the end of the 1st qtr against a team like Geelong then I would applaud moving Roo down back.

[ausfatcat]

It has concerned me that Ross hasn't seemed willing to play Roo at CHB. Up forward his decision-making frequently lets him down and his leads are often poor. I'm not saying never play him up forward and I wouldn't expect us to change things around this week against the Bulldogs who have height problems down back, but if we were looking down the barrel at the end of the 1st qtr against a team like Geelong then I would applaud moving Roo down back.

Are you on something? It is a concern that RL hasn't moved one of the best CHF in game down back? It would be a concern if he did move him down back.

Roo had a bad game on Saturday still got a heap of possessions and klicked two goals IN A BAD GAME. Poor leading??? What seriously have you ever watched Roo play?

[Mr Magic]

It has concerned me that Ross hasn't seemed willing to play Roo at CHB. Up forward his decision-making frequently lets him down and his leads are often poor.

That's why Roo is considered in the top 10 players in the AFL (if not top 5).

Can you imagine how good he would be if his leads weren't poor and his decision-making didn't frequently let him down.

Seriously guys, this is an article from Patrick Smith who I have been told many times by posters on this forum is to be totally ignored at all times.

[maverick]

I think his kicking is fine, its more his decision making.
Someone like BJ or Dal kick the ball hard to position and hits blokes on the chest, where Roo kicks floaters and sells blokes into trouble.
Maybe its because he doesn't spend enough time in the middle, but I cringe when he's passing the ball as much as CJ and Blake.

Notice how often Roo (almost every time) gets the ball up the ground, and gives a short kick sideways into the corridor?

He does it too much. On most occasions, it either holds us up (which may be the intention to give him time to run forward) or results in 'setting a bloke up'.

Yep agree, he kicks those short floaters, he might be good enough to mark them, the rest of them aren't

[TwoTowers]

And what, when Goose finally comes back?

What about when Goose finally comes back? He has done nothing yet to earn a spot at CHB. Had one year where he showed lots of promise then took two steps backwards the following year. He is a great clubman and I hope for our sake he succeeds but you need to do more to become a star than grow up in the same town as Jonathan Brown.