What's wrong with Kosi ??

[St DAC]

Exactly what position is that Roger? Wing? Ruckrover?

Kosi is a follower. A no better than handy tap ruckman, but a very fine follower who can drift forward and provide another target. His best games have been in that role. As it stands now with Gardiner and King as ruckmen there's no spot for him there, but he seems ill at ease as a pure forward, and his goal kicking is Roo-esque at present.

Ross Lyon has a quandry on his hands with what to do with Kosi that maximises his output and benefits the team most. I'm not sure what the answer is.

[bigcarl]

Ross Lyon has a quandry on his hands with what to do with Kosi that maximises his output and benefits the team most. I'm not sure what the answer is.

kosi chf, gehrig ff, riewoldt roaming forward (at his own discretion).

why wouldn't that work? it looks like a rock solid structure to me and just gives riewoldt a licence to run riot.

what a luxury.

btw, matching up on our tall forwards is the bulldogs' topic of the week, they seem to have some anxiety about it.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=427738

[rodgerfox]

Exactly what position is that Roger? Wing? Ruckrover?

I don't think those positions even exist anymore.

You're pretty much a defender, an attacker, a defending attacker or an attacking defender - no matter where you stand on the ground.

For mine, Kosi shouldbe used as an attacking defender. He should play the old ruckman role that Jim Stynes and Scott Wynd mastered. Basically playing the loose man across HB. In this day and age, Kosi wouldn't be allowed to stay unmarked so he would at many times be a defender. However he would need to float forward at every suitable time.

He would contest hitouts in defence but not in the centre - although I'd be happy for him to spend short bursts in the guts.

He just isn't a very good traditional forward. He is slow on the lead, and needs to get a clear run at a contest.

Kosi is a follower. A no better than handy tap ruckman, but a very fine follower who can drift forward and provide another target. His best games have been in that role.

I agree. Follower, but starting the defensive half.

[joffaboy]

I tend to agree with RodgerFox on this point.

It is well known that Kosi prefers rucking, but id there is no position for him there (as it sits at present King/Gardiner combo seems to be working fine) I tend to think his best position is the one posted by RF.

Dont forget he won the Rising Star from that type of position (mabye more a traditional CHB in 2001).

With our options with Roo and Gehrig, and the two ruckmen and C.Gardiner as talls in the forward line we have plenty of options. Kosi can also go forward if need be.

The delightful quandary is how do we fit all these in when Goose gets back. Thats the coaches problem and it is his job to best work out how to utilise not just Kosi but all of the options we now have at our disposal.

What a great change.

[St DAC]

Yes JB, a great change. In some ways over-blessed with riches; who goes out for BJ? And Goose when he's available? Both are in our best side. How do we utilise Kosi? (RF's idea has merit, but I'm unclear on the structure to accommodate it).

Perhaps BigCarl has it; Kosi at CFH, Roo as a roaming HFF, and G as FF. Milney and Schnieder as the crumbers.

In the back half, Raph out for BJ, and Geary out for Goose. Goose to HFB, Goddard at BP, Fisher at HBF. That's a pretty attacking back six, although it'd be hard on both Raph and Geary, who've both shown a bit.

Must be tough to be a selector ...

[bigcarl]

kosi is playing forward to stop riewoldt being monstered by two and sometimes three opponents and to break down our, at times, pathetic reliance on him.

kosi's ability to take contested marks (and to bring the ball to ground for milne, schneider etc) is just too important to a forward structure that (without him) netted the lowest score in the competion last year.

he just gives you a target that you can go long and direct to rather than dick around, chipping it sideways, waiting for an opportunity to hit fraser or riewoldt laces up on the lead ... all the while giving the opposition a chance to get numbers back.

forgive me for going on and on like a broken record on this topic, but i feel very strongly about this and believe that not having kosi forward would be just about the biggest mistake we could make.

kosi forward is just vital for us to have a shot at a premiership this year, imo.

for once the forward line last week actually kicked some goals last week (unlike most of 2007) and people are still finding reason to be critical with it.

imo kosi chf, gehrig ff, riewoldt licenced to create havoc anywhere in the front half.

give kosi the responsibilty of a key position rather than continue to ask him to fill in as a bit parts player.

[fonz_#15]

kosi is playing forward to stop riewoldt being monstered by two and sometimes three opponents and to break down our, at times, pathetic reliance on him.

kosi's ability to take contested marks (and to bring the ball to ground for milne, schneider etc) is just too important to a forward structure that (without him) netted the lowest score in the competion last year.

he just gives you a target that you can go long and direct to rather than dick around, chipping it sideways, waiting for an opportunity to hit fraser or riewoldt laces up on the lead ... all the while giving the opposition a chance to get numbers back.

forgive me for going on and on like a broken record on this topic, but i feel very strongly about this and believe that not having kosi forward would be just about the biggest mistake we could make.

for once the forward line last week actually kicked some goals last week (unlike most of 2007) and people are still finding reason to be critical with it.

imo kosi chf, gehrig ff, riewoldt licenced to create havoc anywhere in the front half.

great post bigcarl, it is imperative that we have the three big men up in our front half..

it is natural that 1, maybe even 2 of the big key forwards will misfire each week with this set up but the havoc it creates for the opposition defence is evident.

no team, can stop all 3 on any given day, not 1 team in the comp has 3b defenders good enough to go with the three men.

if lake keeps g-train to 3 possies this week, the dogs still habve to worry about roo and kosi, a force that they simply won't be able to stop.

[bigcarl]

it is natural that 1, maybe even 2 of the big key forwards will misfire each week with this set up but the havoc it creates for the opposition defence is evident.

yes. well said fonz

[n1ck]

Has only ever done well as a forward when he's the primary target. Has never been able to work with two other talls.

And he's lost all condifence in his kicking for goal.

Also never had great results as a forward when against a genuine defender.

Needs to drift down back for mine.

I only read the first page as i can imagine what the rest of this thread holds.

I agree with Everton fully on this. Kosi doesnt need to kick a bag to have an impact.
He had an ordinary game. So what? Fair dinkum, even the great Robert Harvey has had dirty days.
We all know what Kos can do. Sometimes Kosi will get beaten, G or Roo will stand up. Other weeks it will be others who kill their opponent. Fact is, we have SO many options up forward - i cant think of any other team in the league who has 3 quality tall backs to keep all of our forwards quiet.

If the midfield delivery had been better then our forwards would have been better too. Yes Kosi's kicking was average on friday but hes always been a confidence player. You dont drop a player of the quality of a Koschitzke, you just dont.

And Roger... dont you remember Harves' 350th at Subi? Kosi smashed Darren Glass - the best full back in the comp.

[Raven]

kosi is playing forward to stop riewoldt being monstered by two and sometimes three opponents and to break down our, at times, pathetic reliance on him.

kosi's ability to take contested marks (and to bring the ball to ground for milne, schneider etc) is just too important to a forward structure that (without him) netted the lowest score in the competion last year.

he just gives you a target that you can go long and direct to rather than dick around, chipping it sideways, waiting for an opportunity to hit fraser or riewoldt laces up on the lead ... all the while giving the opposition a chance to get numbers back.

forgive me for going on and on like a broken record on this topic, but i feel very strongly about this and believe that not having kosi forward would be just about the biggest mistake we could make.

kosi forward is just vital for us to have a shot at a premiership this year, imo.

for once the forward line last week actually kicked some goals last week (unlike most of 2007) and people are still finding reason to be critical with it.

imo kosi chf, gehrig ff, riewoldt licenced to create havoc anywhere in the front half.

give kosi the responsibilty of a key position rather than continue to ask him to fill in as a bit parts player.

Extremely well said, IMO. If one of them has an off-week, generally the other two will do much better, not to mention the stress we put on the other team trying to stretch themselves thin in order to cover them all. It'd be a nightmare for any coach, really.

[rodgerfox]

Has only ever done well as a forward when he's the primary target. Has never been able to work with two other talls.

And he's lost all condifence in his kicking for goal.

Also never had great results as a forward when against a genuine defender.

Needs to drift down back for mine.

I only read the first page as i can imagine what the rest of this thread holds.

I agree with Everton fully on this. Kosi doesnt need to kick a bag to have an impact.
He had an ordinary game. So what? Fair dinkum, even the great Robert Harvey has had dirty days.
We all know what Kos can do. Sometimes Kosi will get beaten, G or Roo will stand up. Other weeks it will be others who kill their opponent. Fact is, we have SO many options up forward - i cant think of any other team in the league who has 3 quality tall backs to keep all of our forwards quiet.

If the midfield delivery had been better then our forwards would have been better too. Yes Kosi's kicking was average on friday but hes always been a confidence player. You dont drop a player of the quality of a Koschitzke, you just dont.

And Roger... dont you remember Harves' 350th at Subi? Kosi smashed Darren Glass - the best full back in the comp.

It's actually a decent thread n1ck.

Your questions are covered already.

[SaintBot]

http://finalsiren.com/MatchDetails.asp? ... 71e47eb9bc

to me this game was the best iv ever seen our big three play together, irronically it was against our opponents for this week

koschtizke, while only getting one goal and nine possessions did a fantastic job as a "foil"

he was contesting most marking contests and was a criticle part in Gehrig and Riewoldt dominating the game





now i dont remember this game however these are the kind of stats we should be aiming for from Koschitzke, Riewoldt, Gehrig
and if milne can be anywhere near that handy then thats a huge bonus

http://finalsiren.com/MatchDetails.asp? ... b00b1469c0

it seems as though Riewoldt played further up the ground (pehaps on the wing) - he picked up just under 20 possessions, kicked the one goal
koschitzke kicked 4
gehrig 5
milne 5
guerra 4 (schneider)

i dont at all expect a goal tally like that from milne and schneider and pehaps a few more of our goals to come from midfielders such as dal santo and xavier




just going through the 2004 season weekly "bests" on west of moorabbin it is quite remarkable that nearly every week the bests included 2 of koschitzke, gehrig or riewoldt - however at a quick glance i dont think once all three were in

http://westofmoorabbin.com/scores2004.html


its a very interesting debate on how the forward setup should be and if it only includes gehrig and riewoldt - where koschitzke fits into the side

id love to know the answer

[mad saint guy]

now i dont remember this game however these are the kind of stats we should be aiming for from Koschitzke, Riewoldt, Gehrig
and if milne can be anywhere near that handy then thats a huge bonus

http://finalsiren.com/MatchDetails.asp? ... b00b1469c0

it seems as though Riewoldt played further up the ground (pehaps on the wing) - he picked up just under 20 possessions, kicked the one goal
koschitzke kicked 4
gehrig 5
milne 5
guerra 4 (schneider)

I do remember that game. Kosi kicked his 4 goals in one awsome quarter while Riewoldt was playing mostly midfield/half back. Roo moved deeper into the forward line after that and Kosi couldn't get a touch in the forward line after that, and ended up in a back pocket.

The three talls can definitely work in the same team, but they've never worked well when all in the forward line.

[mischa]

Didn't that moron Walls say "you don't put a thoroughbread in the ruck" and putting Kosi there was a mortal sin On the replay could've sworn I heard that repulsive bastard say just that

[st.byron]

kosi is playing forward to stop riewoldt being monstered by two and sometimes three opponents and to break down our, at times, pathetic reliance on him.

kosi's ability to take contested marks (and to bring the ball to ground for milne, schneider etc) is just too important to a forward structure that (without him) netted the lowest score in the competion last year.

he just gives you a target that you can go long and direct to rather than dick around, chipping it sideways, waiting for an opportunity to hit fraser or riewoldt laces up on the lead ... all the while giving the opposition a chance to get numbers back.

forgive me for going on and on like a broken record on this topic, but i feel very strongly about this and believe that not having kosi forward would be just about the biggest mistake we could make.

kosi forward is just vital for us to have a shot at a premiership this year, imo.

for once the forward line last week actually kicked some goals last week (unlike most of 2007) and people are still finding reason to be critical with it.

imo kosi chf, gehrig ff, riewoldt licenced to create havoc anywhere in the front half.

give kosi the responsibilty of a key position rather than continue to ask him to fill in as a bit parts player.

Fair enough Carl to keep making your point. I think there's merit in considering the sum of the whole forward structure as just as important as Kosi's individual output. Even though he had a dog of a night, he was there providing a target. It was refreshing to see our guys coming off half-back and through the middle and kicking long into the forward 50. I so prefer this style of attacking footy over the chip it around crap.
Interesting debate this one. On one hand the idea that Kosi is a follower who could play from half-back and on the other the current set-up where he adds a third tall marking target. I'm sitting on the fence about this one, but am still strong in my opinion that he's over-rated and if he's going to play FF, he needs to kick reliably and learn to present more than just a contested mark option.

[iwantmeseats]

I dont see what all the BS fuss is about people. He had a off night. He is a quality player. Its as simple as that. I like look of the foward line with him in it. He isnt needed in the ruck at the moment, and besides maybe rotating there occassionally, is wasted there.


I agree with a post here somewhere, you just dont drop guys of his quality.


Its not like there has been QUICK accurate delivery into the fowards at any stage during the first two games, so I dont think think the fault lies with Kosi so much.

[Oh When the Saints]

Agree with your views rodgerfox on how he can be played, although Kosi in the ruck give us nothing like the physical presence of King and Gardiner, and we are seeing how valuable that is ATM.

Gardiner at his fittest was (is?!) a ruckman who ran around amok around the ground ... he was mobile as well as aggressive. If he continues to improve on where he is at the moment, and we see some of that form, then even the role you are talking about for Kosi could become redundant.

Unfortunately Kosi's physical presence/tap work isn't as good as Gardiner and King IMO, so he's not gunna be #1 or #2 ruck.

Can he afford to just float around? He's 2-3cm and 10-12kg heavier now than in 2001 when he won the Rising Star playing CHB.


No doubt he had an off night as a forward ... he will usually be good for 2 goals even with Rooey and G there.


But his best footy has been as a ruckman drifting forward ... a position IMO he can't really play anymore because of Gardiner and King ...

[evertonfc]

This is probably the one week we can offered to go with two talls instead of three up forward....but why would you?

Seriously, with King/Gardiner in the ruck + Maguire and Goddard coming back into our backline, the best place for Kosi is up forward.

Personally, I quite liked how he tore Darren Glass apart last year. There can be no doubts he can play FF.

I heartily encourage a thorough cross-analysis of all our players, but I feel the fantastic talent and ability of Kosi gives him a little breathing space. One week is not that.

If he's coughing and spluttering after round 5-6, it might be a time to change.

[To the top]

In putting together the side I would ideally like to see on the ground, I list Koschitzke at CHF and Riewoldt notionally on a wing.

Gehrig at Full Forward and Gardiner on a HFF.

However, I view that Gardiner and Milne are in competition for a spot in the forward line. So take your pick because Milne brings the unexpected and Gardiner brings the work ethic as an optional marking target, but he needs to match Milne's goal output (2 a game?).

Again:-

L. Fisher Hudgden Gilbert
S. Fisher Maguire Gram
Riewoldt Goddard Hayes
X. Clarke Koschitzke Gardiner
Montagna Gehrig Schnieder
King Dal Santo Ball
Harvey M. Gardiner R. Clarke Geary

The tall forwards compliment each other with Kosi as a contested overhead (when closer to goal) and leading target (but, to me, he needs to get match conditioning into his legs to really perform this role), Gehrig a leading come push and shove target (no matter his grab from behind last Saturday night), Gardiner a leading target to unsettle the match ups and Riewoldt to cause mayhem by dropping forward and leading up at his discretion - including if Gardiner goes to the bench because mid-field run is wanted.

Plus you have King and M. Gardiner to drop forward.

The opportunistic come defensive pressure comes from X. Clarke, Montagna (or the other mid-fielder going forward like Ball/Harvey) and Schnieder - with Gardiner (or Milne).

The real strength is the options available.

[rodgerfox]

Personally, I quite liked how he tore Darren Glass apart last year. There can be no doubts he can play FF.

People keep referring to this match. But he only kicked 4. Not exactly Coleman Medal material.

[joffaboy]

Personally, I quite liked how he tore Darren Glass apart last year. There can be no doubts he can play FF.

People keep referring to this match. But he only kicked 4. Not exactly Coleman Medal material.

I dont know, four by 22 would probably win the Coleman nowdays.

He also took apart the comp for a month in 2005 whe Reiwoldt again injured his shoulder so he can play up forward.

I still think he would be best in the backline, moving forward occasionally and rotating between the two off the bench with Goose and Roo.

Lets see over the next couple of games.

[bigcarl]

from another thread, but it probably has a place here

FRASER GEHRIG ON OUR FORWARD LINE:
"I don't have to be the big pea. I'm past that now. I see myself as the third key forward behind Rooey and Kosi. We've got four or five players who can kick 40 or 50 goals, which will keep the opposition guessing as to where the ball's going and they'll have to respect every player. That is the aim. We'll be blocking and creating space for each other to try to make it happen"

in other words, many avenues to goal. no over-reliance on riewoldt or fraser or milne to kick us a winning score.

[maverick]

Its funny how see things, I see Kosi as a big burly CHF who can drift up the ground providing contests. I think Kosi roaming around CHB will be too slow.

I like Roo close to goal personally.

As others have said, its a terrible problem to have....

[st.byron]

Agree with your views rodgerfox on how he can be played, although Kosi in the ruck give us nothing like the physical presence of King and Gardiner, and we are seeing how valuable that is ATM.

Gardiner at his fittest was (is?!) a ruckman who ran around amok around the ground ... he was mobile as well as aggressive. If he continues to improve on where he is at the moment, and we see some of that form, then even the role you are talking about for Kosi could become redundant.

Unfortunately Kosi's physical presence/tap work isn't as good as Gardiner and King IMO, so he's not gunna be #1 or #2 ruck.

Can he afford to just float around? He's 2-3cm and 10-12kg heavier now than in 2001 when he won the Rising Star playing CHB.


No doubt he had an off night as a forward ... he will usually be good for 2 goals even with Rooey and G there.


But his best footy has been as a ruckman drifting forward ... a position IMO he can't really play anymore because of Gardiner and King ...

Agree with you OWTS. Kosi may be useful in some ruck contests but he just doesn't have the physical presence that King and Gardiner have.
Leave him at FF for now and see how he goes in coming weeks.

[vacuous space]

I may be alone, but I didn't think Kosi did anything wrong on the weekend. He was pretty smart when the ball was coming his way. If Carlton had two or three guys around him, he'd just try and get a fist to the ball and bring it to ground for the small guys. Even if his stats weren't very good, I think he's team oriented enough that he won't hurt us. He's another talented tall that the other side has to worry about. That has to help out the other two big guys.

So far I haven't seen anything to worry about in terms of opposition players running off our talls. Thornton got a bucket load of ball on the weekend, but wasn't really damaging with it. I think a club should play to its strengths and we've got good talls front, middle and back. We should be able to work out a way to use our height as an advantage.