List Management? Tanking? Match Fixing? !!

[Eastern]

I have listened and read quite a bit about all this since Libba came out last Thursday. There has been plenty of vitriol from the likes of Patrick Smith calling for a Royal Commission. There have also been plenty of differing opinions on what should be done with the Priority Pick and the entire Draft system.

I believe that ALL of this is PUTING THE CART IN FRONT OF THE HORSE

I believe that it needs to start with the AFL being definitive with where List Management becomes Tanking and where Tanking becomes Match Fixing. After that, the AFL needs to decide where any sanctions come into place.

A lot of people are pointing the finger at Carlton. I would suggest that EVERY Club in the AFL would have done exactly the same if they were in the same situation. What needs to be determined is whether or not Carlton broke any of the AFL's rules (or any other team/s in the past for that matter).

It is the AFL which has created this situation where the integrity of the game is being brought into question. It is the AFL who needs to act quickly and decisevely to address the problem.

Dimitriou is being paid $1.4Mill pa to run the game and he doesn't appear to have any answers. Where is his off-sider, Anderson? I hear he is in England studying.

The AFL cannot and should not penalise Carlton or any other club for taking full advantage of these rules. THE AFL SHOULD CLARIFY THE RULES ON THIS MATTER AND MAKE WHATEVER CHANGES DEEMED NECESSARY !!

[Dis Believer]

YOu could pay dimwit $1m per day and it eould make no difference - he still couldn't organise a rock fight in a quarry, let alone fix anything in the AFL.............

[bigcarl]

my thoughts exactly, eastern. carlton did exactly what anyone else would have in their position and it is the afl rules, not the club, that is at fault.

imo scrap the priority pick and make the first five picks in the draft a raffle between the bottom five sides.

that ought to take care of tanking

[saintsRrising]

I posted this in another string earlier today...but it is very relevant here..

One of the realities of AFL is that it has never beena game played within the spirit of the rules.

It has always beena game where teams and players attemp to get away with what they can within the rules in order to havea higher chance of winning and in particular in winninga premiership.

Coaches and players are always seeking an edge or loophole to be exploited.

Teams will once out of the race tank not only to achieve lower draft picks but to:

* prepare better for next year (operations, different training, earlier training et...ie did wonders for the Roos in 2007)
* review fring players at AFL to aid in the decision to keep or delist
*to get games into the kids and less experienced.


There is a sematic argument I guess about what is tanking (ie deliberately finishing lower for better draft selectiions (Ie the Pies for thomas and Pendleberry) and what is just preparing for next season (ie Kangaroos at the end of 2006).

ALL clubs including the saints will get away with what they can...it is how AFL is played.

It is up to the AFL to tighten the rules or loopholes if they believe actions get too far away from the desired spirit..


An extra priority pick at the start ofthe draft is a BIG big tempation.

An extra draft pick at the end of the first draft round is a much lesser temptation.

However it is not just the priortit picks that area temptation it is gettinga pick in the first 3 or so players where noramally the amount of talent is appreciably greater.

Drafting is meant to advantage poorer teams....and who could really deny that the Blues were a poor team in 2007?????

The priority pick is meant to advantage very poor teams though...particularly when it is the first selection...and that is where the arguments start.

However the Tiges and Dees could have tanked too...


And so for me that is why I thinka lottery system should come in so that a guaranteed low pick is known.



However clubs out of the race are always now going "prepare for next year" and that is not going to change anytime soon.

Only the fear of relegation would most liekly sway a club from finishing last to grab a No1 pick.

[saint66au]

my thoughts exactly, eastern. carlton did exactly what anyone else would have in their position and it is the afl rules, not the club, that is at fault.

imo scrap the priority pick and make the first five picks in the draft a raffle between the bottom five sides.

that ought to take care of tanking

Agree except thats its gotta be the bottom 8. Sides in 9, 10, 11 could still make a mockery of Rounds 20-22 if one or all of them cant make finals....still worth tanking to get a shot at No 1 rather than #6 - #8

[congorozides]

Im glad we have some sensible consensus on this. So far there has been a witch hunt and people pointing the finger all over the place. People attacking Libba's credibility and so on and so on.

This is not about Libba or any individual. The fault lies with the system. But Demetriou (like Howard on kyoto and the apology) has too big an ego to back-track and admit he got it wrong. He doesn/t want to lose face. Changing the rules would admit he got it wrong last year when he said the system was fine. So instead he choses to play the man and talk about LIbba and Roos and start a witch hunt.

The fact is - whether anyone tanks or not is NOT the issue. The issue is that the system is set up in a way that provides an incentive to do so. What goes in the space between coaches ears is not the issue.

Remember Terry Walace coming out last year and saying he felt he was being put in a position where he was uncertain about winning games??? So its not about the individual coaches. Its about the system..

Demetirou has to be man enough to admit he got it wrong last year. Tanking IS an issue due the the incentive structure of the draft system. Its not the fault of individual clubs or coaching staff. He needs to introduce a ballot or HIRE and independent economist or mathemetician to devise the best system that provides incentives for winning but also helps keep the competetition even in the long run.

I am an economist by trade and demetriou claims to have studied the subject but he has shown here that he didnt really understand the subject at all.

[bigcarl]

my thoughts exactly, eastern. carlton did exactly what anyone else would have in their position and it is the afl rules, not the club, that is at fault.

imo scrap the priority pick and make the first five picks in the draft a raffle between the bottom five sides.

that ought to take care of tanking

Agree except thats its gotta be the bottom 8. Sides in 9, 10, 11 could still make a mockery of Rounds 20-22 if one or all of them cant make finals....still worth tanking to get a shot at No 1 rather than #6 - #8

yep. that makes sense. the bottom 8 sides should go in the lottery, that way you would always be striving to win. priority pick could be part of the raffle as well (though this might mean that a team that just missed the finals benefits from the luck of the draw).

unfortunately dimwit is too dim and stubborn to concede there is a problem with the system and we're stuck with it for 2008 at least

[saintspremiers]

my thoughts exactly, eastern. carlton did exactly what anyone else would have in their position and it is the afl rules, not the club, that is at fault.

imo scrap the priority pick and make the first five picks in the draft a raffle between the bottom five sides.

that ought to take care of tanking

Agree except thats its gotta be the bottom 8. Sides in 9, 10, 11 could still make a mockery of Rounds 20-22 if one or all of them cant make finals....still worth tanking to get a shot at No 1 rather than #6 - #8

IMO the bigger issue is not so much getting Pick number 1 over pick numbers 5 to 8 as you're outlining, more that both Carlton and Richmond could be eligible for an EXTRA pick before Round 1 of the draft if they successfully tank 2008.

This the biggie....imagine if there was no priority pick before Round 1 - Carlton would've still got Judd but not Kreuzer as well!

[Go Sretnias Go]

As a problem solver, I would suggest to the AFL that -

THE BOTTOM SIX CLUBS after ROUND 11 have the first SIX picks in the draft at the end of the year in order 16 to 11 inclusive, cut the Priority pick altogether and thus completely eliminate any TANKING possibilities.

[bigcarl]

my thoughts exactly, eastern. carlton did exactly what anyone else would have in their position and it is the afl rules, not the club, that is at fault.

imo scrap the priority pick and make the first five picks in the draft a raffle between the bottom five sides.

that ought to take care of tanking

Agree except thats its gotta be the bottom 8. Sides in 9, 10, 11 could still make a mockery of Rounds 20-22 if one or all of them cant make finals....still worth tanking to get a shot at No 1 rather than #6 - #8

IMO the bigger issue is not so much getting Pick number 1 over pick numbers 5 to 8 as you're outlining, more that both Carlton and Richmond could be eligible for an EXTRA pick before Round 1 of the draft if they successfully tank 2008.

This the biggie....imagine if there was no priority pick before Round 1 - Carlton would've still got Judd but not Kreuzer as well!

they should also scrap the priority pick or make it part of the bottom eight lottery as well

[Solar]

not sure which age "expert" suggested it in the paper the other day but its the closest solution I have found to the situation....

Keep the PP, but change it to

A team will get a PP if they have only won 2 games by round 11 and have won 4 or less the season before....

Put the bottom 4 into the lottery system. There is not usually a big difference between the bottom team and 13th. Means there is no point in a round 22 game between the bottom two teams being such an issue... (make it bottom 6 when the extra two teams come into the comp).

I think this will work very well because teams would not be tanking games early in the season as all clubs still harbour views of making the finals (remember the saints came from bottom 2 to top of the ladder in '97). Two wins from 11 games means you are struggling, especially since they would have had to be coming off a bad season (less then 4 wins). This stops teams having a bad injury year and gaining extra advantage.

thoughts?

[saintsRrising]

. There is not usually a big difference between the bottom team and 13th. Means there is no point in a round 22 game between the bottom two teams being such an issue... (make it bottom 6 when the extra two teams come into the comp).

DRAFTING ORDER

The 12 team may then tank then to get a 1 in 4 chance ofa better player...


which is why I favour the looto fot all bottom 8 but with less marbles the higher you finish.

That way there is still a fair difference between say 9 and last, but not to much by dropping onlya rung or two...


It also means that most can tank (though 9 and 10 ish may still be aiming for 8) and so the clubs "resting" players etc will even out.

PRIORITY PICK AT START OF FIRST ROUND

Now the priority pick is a different issue.

I think the byRound 11 is not a bad one on top of the previous tear.

If a team is truly dreadful it can still qualify..as after all that is it's purpose....and that way it has to be fora year and a half.

By being thereabouts teams are unlikely to start tanking at say Round 6 as there is still two thirds of the year to go.


There is still the priorty pick at end of the first round of selction, but that is a lot less tempatation than Pick No 1

[saintsRrising]

And not forget the Pre-season Draft

A benefit overlooked for "tankers: is the No1 pick in the pre-season draft.


While the PSD itself does not always contain very good players, it does also have a value in that it can give the club who has first pick very good bargaining power as it can threaten to take a targetted player via it if the player's current club does not do a "reasonable" deal to that club.


How much value is quite variable....but it is very good Ace to have.

[congorozides]

Plenty of excellent suggestions here.

More brains here than down at AFL house. Despite Demetrious ego and large $$$ account , his intellect is deplorable.

[borderbarry]

The only point I would like to make is that a Priority pick should only go to the bottom team,. If you have teams that finish 11 or 12 getting the priority pick and the bottom teams miss out, where is the sense in that! But the system must change. Carlton has received the last 3 No.1 picks, and the 2nd pick before that. They should have been on the way up last year. Yet they still got Judd? The system must change.