How good was our drafting and trading in 2006/07 ...

[meher baba]

Honest to goodness, are some people ever going to get over Lord Voldemort........!!

Look, the entire drafting and trading history of St Kilda and all other 15 clubs during the GT era is set out in copious detail here.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts

Any objective assessment of this information can only find that all clubs won some and lost some with their recruitment choices over the period As others have pointed out, we did make some pretty inspired choices with Goose, Dal, Joey, Sam Fisher, Gilbert, Gram and - for a while at least - with Guerra and Ackland. I don't think too many other clubs can come up with as long a list of top line players who were not recruited through the top 10 of the draft.

The other striking thing about the Sainters is that virtually all of our top draft picks and top trades in recent years are still playing regularly in our first team. Many other clubs cannot point to such a retention record, which does say something for player management at the club under GT (and under RL, for that matter).

GT and JB did ok: there was some spilt milk, but some unexpected windfalls as well. We can choose to ruminate endlessly over the spilt milk, or to celebrate the windfalls and the successful development of the Kosis, Riewoldts, Goddards & etc.

And surely that's all that needs to be said now. In the famous words of Christopher Marlowe

"Thou hast committed fornication
but that was in another country
and, besides, the wench is dead"

As the cliche du jour puts it, we all need to "move on"

[saintsRrising]

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts

Any objective assessment of this information can only find that all clubs won some and lost some with their recruitment choices over the period "

It is not the draft picks I have a problem with....it is the trades that GT engineered which as a group had a poor return.



It is also GT not overseeing the list to achieve a balanced list.



PS Games played which is all that site tells you..tell you little.

You can recruit an entire list of duds....but have to play 22 each week regardless racking up 22 games played each week regardless of talent...or not.

[Violent Stool]

PS Games played which is all that site tells you..tell you little.

You can recruit an entire list of duds....but have to play 22 each week regardless racking up 22 games played each week regardless of talent...or not.

Yeah but when your team finishes top 6 they must be doing something right.

It's not as if they were making up numbers in a bottom 4 side.

[Apu]

Meh,
As far as Im concerned trading is a gamble. Your chances improve if the player was a "required" player at their old team but just wanted to leave. But otherwise its 50/50. This got me thinking of actually rating each trade we did during the GT era and ultimately gaugeing whether each was bad luck or bad management. Heres one i did for probably the most maligned trade - Barry Brooks


COST
high (1st and 2nd round pick)

RATIONALE
- young player that should peak at the same time when our existing young guns peak
- loads of ability, 1st round draft pick in "super draft" u18 All Australian
- we were desperate for a decent ruckman (Knobel was a dud, Blake not really a ruckmen, Capuano delisted)

RESULT
big time fail.

OVERVIEW
Definitely paid over the odds for barry probably due to the reasons above, plus the fact that Port werent really keen to give him up. On the other hand the risks were supposedly low given his outstanding u18s career. However at the end of the day as with any 1st round draft pick - despite the players proven junior abilities, and positive metrics testing (fitness level, beep tests etc), some players just dont make it when it comes to the AFL.

BAD LUCK or BAD MANAGEMENT
Bad management, but only just.
The decision to trade for him was based on sound reasoning, but we simply paid too much. A 1st round pick would have been a fair trade. However at the same time we should also be mindful that we were really begging for a half decent ruckman and had GT not addressed this Im sure he would have been roundly critised for list mis-management. So I suppose it was tough position to be in. I would probably liken it to the Brad Ottens trade where Geelong were gutsy enough to give up 2 first rounders for a then out of form Ottens. Luckily for geelong the gamble paid off, In fact I would venture that they would be minus 1 premiership without him.

[Violent Stool]

Meh,
As far as Im concerned trading is a gamble. Your chances improve if the player was a "required" player at their old team but just wanted to leave. But otherwise its 50/50. This got me thinking of actually rating each trade we did during the GT era and ultimately gaugeing whether each was bad luck or bad management. Heres one i did for probably the most maligned trade - Barry Brooks


COST
high (1st and 2nd round pick)

RATIONALE
- young player that should peak at the same time when our existing young guns peak
- loads of ability, 1st round draft pick in "super draft" u18 All Australian
- we were desperate for a decent ruckman (Knobel was a dud, Blake not really a ruckmen, Capuano delisted)

RESULT
big time fail.

OVERVIEW
Definitely paid over the odds for barry probably due to the reasons above, plus the fact that Port werent really keen to give him up. On the other hand the risks were supposedly low given his outstanding u18s career. However at the end of the day as with any 1st round draft pick - despite the players proven junior abilities, and positive metrics testing (fitness level, beep tests etc), some players just dont make it when it comes to the AFL.

BAD LUCK or BAD MANAGEMENT
Bad management, but only just.
The decision to trade for him was based on sound reasoning, but we simply paid too much. A 1st round pick would have been a fair trade. However at the same time we should also be mindful that we were really begging for a half decent ruckman and had GT not addressed this Im sure he would have been roundly critised for list mis-management. So I suppose it was tough position to be in. I would probably liken it to the Brad Ottens trade where Geelong were gutsy enough to give up 2 first rounders for a then out of form Ottens. Luckily for geelong the gamble paid off, In fact I would venture that they would be minus 1 premiership without him.

Remember he did his knee though just as he was starting to show a bit in the 2's.

[stinger]

is a violent stool an angry turd....or a stiff s*** that rips you a new one......

[stinger]

"Thou hast committed fornication
but that was in another country
and, besides, the wench is dead"

As the cliche du jour puts it, we all need to "move on"

...that might not save fat tony.....

[barks4eva]

I started posting a fair bit back on List Management and how under GT our list was going backwards.

I think it is now very evident what proper list management can do.

The criminal thing is that despite RL's improvements that if our list had not been mismanaged by the last incumbents that our list would now be way in front of every other club by a clear margin.

RL is doing a great job of getting us back on track....but we should never have so quickly squandered the boon we gained from the combination of Watson (finishing low), Blight (attracting players who otherwise would have joined the Saints) and the Blues cheating(BJ).

Thinking we had already a "great" list those in charge frittered away trade picks and failed to mine properly for rookies.

Nobody gets it right all the time and indeeda chief part of the process is to sort through players....but the previous incumbant just mad too many poor calls on players potential.....and paid way way too little attention to actually developing players in terems of their football ability.

My thoughts exactly!

Rendell through his previous association with Port was with Thomas's blessing totally responsible for Brooks, Guerra and Ackland.

To think that Thomas gave away pick 6 and 31 as if pick 6 wasn't enough for Barry Brooks is unbelievable, even if Brooks was rated highly why the need to throw in 31 also, afterall Port picked him up with pick 15 one year earlier.

Thomas made the call 100% to draft McGough.

The svengali snake oil salesman sent the list into decline through piss poor decision making and mismanagement.

It is a credit to how astute Ross Lyon is, that he has managed to turn things around this quickly.

If not for Thomas's many, many blunder's our list would now be so far in front of the rest of the competition, we would be unbackable favourites for the premiership, right here, right now.

To think this pissant has the gall to take out a legal action against the St.Kilda Football Club, with ALL things considered, including the incompetent buffoonery in regards to pathetic recruiting and piss poor list management is the height of how arrogant, this megalomaniacal, machiavelian maestro really is.

We used to give up 6 and 31 for Brooks, we now get King and Gardiner for a pick in the 90's.

[stinger]

care factor????????

[plugger66]

I started posting a fair bit back on List Management and how under GT our list was going backwards.

I think it is now very evident what proper list management can do.

The criminal thing is that despite RL's improvements that if our list had not been mismanaged by the last incumbents that our list would now be way in front of every other club by a clear margin.

RL is doing a great job of getting us back on track....but we should never have so quickly squandered the boon we gained from the combination of Watson (finishing low), Blight (attracting players who otherwise would have joined the Saints) and the Blues cheating(BJ).

Thinking we had already a "great" list those in charge frittered away trade picks and failed to mine properly for rookies.

Nobody gets it right all the time and indeeda chief part of the process is to sort through players....but the previous incumbant just mad too many poor calls on players potential.....and paid way way too little attention to actually developing players in terems of their football ability.

My thoughts exactly!

Rendell through his previous association with Port was with Thomas's blessing totally responsible for Brooks, Guerra and Ackland.

To think that Thomas gave away pick 6 and 31 as if pick 6 wasn't enough for Barry Brooks is unbelievable, even if Brooks was rated highly why the need to throw in 31 also, afterall Port picked him up with pick 15 one year earlier.

Thomas made the call 100% to draft McGough.

The svengali snake oil salesman sent the list into decline through piss poor decision making and mismanagement.

It is a credit to how astute Ross Lyon is, that he has managed to turn things around this quickly.

If not for Thomas's many, many blunder's our list would now be so far in front of the rest of the competition, we would be unbackable favourites for the premiership, right here, right now.

To think this pissant has the gall to take out a legal action against the St.Kilda Football Club, with ALL things considered, including the incompetent buffoonery in regards to pathetic recruiting and piss poor list management is the height of how arrogant, this megalomaniacal, machiavelian maestro really is.

We used to give up 6 and 31 for Brooks, we now get King and Gardiner for a pick in the 90's.

You really lead a sad life.

[Violent Stool]

I started posting a fair bit back on List Management and how under GT our list was going backwards.

I think it is now very evident what proper list management can do.

The criminal thing is that despite RL's improvements that if our list had not been mismanaged by the last incumbents that our list would now be way in front of every other club by a clear margin.

RL is doing a great job of getting us back on track....but we should never have so quickly squandered the boon we gained from the combination of Watson (finishing low), Blight (attracting players who otherwise would have joined the Saints) and the Blues cheating(BJ).

Thinking we had already a "great" list those in charge frittered away trade picks and failed to mine properly for rookies.

Nobody gets it right all the time and indeeda chief part of the process is to sort through players....but the previous incumbant just mad too many poor calls on players potential.....and paid way way too little attention to actually developing players in terems of their football ability.

My thoughts exactly!

Rendell through his previous association with Port was with Thomas's blessing totally responsible for Brooks, Guerra and Ackland.

To think that Thomas gave away pick 6 and 31 as if pick 6 wasn't enough for Barry Brooks is unbelievable, even if Brooks was rated highly why the need to throw in 31 also, afterall Port picked him up with pick 15 one year earlier.

Thomas made the call 100% to draft McGough.

The svengali snake oil salesman sent the list into decline through piss poor decision making and mismanagement.

It is a credit to how astute Ross Lyon is, that he has managed to turn things around this quickly.

If not for Thomas's many, many blunder's our list would now be so far in front of the rest of the competition, we would be unbackable favourites for the premiership, right here, right now.

To think this pissant has the gall to take out a legal action against the St.Kilda Football Club, with ALL things considered, including the incompetent buffoonery in regards to pathetic recruiting and piss poor list management is the height of how arrogant, this megalomaniacal, machiavelian maestro really is.

We used to give up 6 and 31 for Brooks, we now get King and Gardiner for a pick in the 90's.

I don't see how pick 6 and pick 31 would put us so far in front of everyone else though?

[plugger66]

Dont use logic with him. He doesnt know the meaning of it when it comes to GT. I think his hatred of him gets him sexually aroused.

[saintsRrising]

Meh,
As far as Im concerned trading is a gamble. Your chances improve if the player was a "required" player at their old team but just wanted to leave. But otherwise its 50/50. This got me thinking of actually rating each trade we did during the GT era and ultimately gaugeing whether each was bad luck or bad management. Heres one i did for probably the most maligned trade - Barry Brooks


COST
high (1st and 2nd round pick)

RATIONALE
- young player that should peak at the same time when our existing young guns peak
- loads of ability, 1st round draft pick in "super draft" u18 All Australian
- we were desperate for a decent ruckman (Knobel was a dud, Blake not really a ruckmen, Capuano delisted)

RESULT
big time fail.

OVERVIEW
Definitely paid over the odds for barry probably due to the reasons above, plus the fact that Port werent really keen to give him up. On the other hand the risks were supposedly low given his outstanding u18s career. However at the end of the day as with any 1st round draft pick - despite the players proven junior abilities, and positive metrics testing (fitness level, beep tests etc), some players just dont make it when it comes to the AFL.

BAD LUCK or BAD MANAGEMENT
Bad management, but only just.
The decision to trade for him was based on sound reasoning, but we simply paid too much. A 1st round pick would have been a fair trade. However at the same time we should also be mindful that we were really begging for a half decent ruckman and had GT not addressed this Im sure he would have been roundly critised for list mis-management. So I suppose it was tough position to be in. I would probably liken it to the Brad Ottens trade where Geelong were gutsy enough to give up 2 first rounders for a then out of form Ottens. Luckily for geelong the gamble paid off, In fact I would venture that they would be minus 1 premiership without him.

Trouble is that while Barry had heaps of talent......he did not have the desire.


His injury is of little long term consequence...if he had the desire he would have come back.

PA realised he was not going to make it due to poor desire IMO....and were fortunate to find a sucker to not only take him off their hands...but to pay way over the odds for.

Now was this a one off???????

PA unloads 3 players with poor attitudes.....and were did they go????


Brooks
Ackland
Guerra...

Anyone spot a pattern???????

But that was only from one club???

Remember Lawrence...now yes he was a hard player...and could play......but the Lions were keen to offload him due to his attitude......

Did GT ever turn around player with a poor attitude?

Certainly Hall and Guerra propspered once they left.

But hey GT is lauded by some as great people manager = not!

[mischa]

Any objective assessment of this information can only find that all clubs won some and lost some with their recruitment choices over the period As others have pointed out, we did make some pretty inspired choices with Goose, Dal, Joey, Sam Fisher, Gilbert, Gram and - for a while at least - with Guerra and Ackland. I don't think too many other clubs can come up with as long a list of top line players who were not recruited through the top 10 of the draft.

The other striking thing about the Sainters is that virtually all of our top draft picks and top trades in recent years are still playing regularly in our first team. Many other clubs cannot point to such a retention record, which does say something for player management at the club under GT (and under RL, for that matter).

GT and JB did ok: there was some spilt milk, but some unexpected windfalls as well. We can choose to ruminate endlessly over the spilt milk, or to celebrate the windfalls and the successful development of the Kosis, Riewoldts, Goddards & etc.

Great post MB. But I disagree bout the did OK. GT and co did an outstanding job with little money and no funding for rookies. Perhaps these einsteins think we should've given away Roo to get King or Gardiner eralier (when there careers weren't on the ropes)!

Did GT ever turn around player with a poor attitude?

Certainly Hall and Guerra propspered once they left.

But hey GT is lauded by some as great people manager = not!

You stupid old fool. Anyone who thinks Guerra is playing better at whorethawn than he did for us, has rocks in their head. Of course Hall turned around it was his last chance and he wanted out of Melbourne. It's always amused me this-some scumbag wants out, but ppl fail to take notice of the ones who want to stay!