The gambling addiction of AFL clubs

[Oh When the Saints]

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/f ... ntentSwap2

Cameron Houston | March 3, 2008

VICTORIAN AFL clubs gouged more than $110 million from poker machine players last financial year and are increasingly targeting Melbourne's most vulnerable communities.

Monash University research also reveals massive rorting by clubs of their community benefit obligations, with several claiming player payments and "team maintenance" expenses in return for preferential tax treatment.

Victorian clubs retained in revenue one-third of all losses, or some $36 million, from 1191 poker machines in 18 gaming venues.

Collingwood Football Club comfortably topped the list of Victorian clubs, with pokie players losing an estimated $27.7 million at its five clubs and pubs, of which about $8.6 million was retained as revenue in 2006-07.

Venues operated by Richmond, Western Bulldogs, Carlton, Essendon and Geelong recorded pokie losses of more than $9 million and each received estimated revenue of more than $3 million.

Financially embattled North Melbourne recorded the lowest losses at its Arden Street social club, which were estimated at $3.7 million, with a modest return to the club of $1.2 million. That figure is likely to be significantly lower, however, as North Melbourne claimed a community benefit of just $64,684, which equates to revenue of less than $776,000.

Charles Livingstone, of Monash University's department of health science, used data from the Victorian Commission for Gambling Regulation and community benefit statements from the clubs to calculate their growing stake in the $2.54 billion lost on Victorian pokies last financial year.

Mr Livingstone said his estimates were "relatively conservative" and actual gaming losses at club-owned venues could exceed $150 million.

Collingwood chief executive Gary Pert said the Monash University report had substantially overstated the club's gaming revenue.

"Those figures are far in excess of what is the reality," Mr Pert said.

Mr Livingstone said only five venues still operated at the clubs' traditional home grounds.

Eight venues are located in lower-income suburbs including Laverton, Footscray and Caroline Springs, which all suffer from higher rates of problem gambling.

"It appears likely that Victorian AFL clubs will become increasingly reliant on gaming revenue," Mr Livingstone said.

"In many cases, AFL club-operated venues are located in areas of comparative socio-economic disadvantage and appear to offer only very modest returns in the form of claimed community benefits."

Under state tax rules, all gaming clubs must prove they spend at least 8.3 per cent of their poker machine revenue to benefit the community or risk losing preferential tax treatment.

Last financial year, Victorian club-operated venues claimed more than $13.5 million expenditure as a community benefit. But 94% of claimed community benefits included the venue's wages, fixed assets and expenses such as gas and electricity.

Just $462,000 or 3.4% was spent by Victorian-based clubs on charities and philanthropic organisations.

Collingwood's Caroline Springs venue, The Club, claimed a computer, photocopier and kitchen upgrade as a public benefit, while the Western Bulldogs claimed exercise bikes, gym equipment and legal costs.

And several clubs have claimed football expenses as a community benefit.

Last year's premiers, Geelong, claimed $123,190 for "maintaining football club", the Western Bulldogs justified a $43,122 payment on "football" as a community benefit, while St Kilda claimed a staggering $478,139 on "team maintenance" in return for tax exemptions.

The number of pokies operated by Victorian clubs is set to soar, with Hawthorn, Western Bulldogs, Geelong and St Kilda expected to apply for new machines this year. Maribyrnong residents have slammed a plan by the Western Bulldogs to build a $25 million club in the Edgewater estate with 65 pokies.

Despite its commitment to the south-eastern growth corridor, Hawthorn received planning approval last week for 80 more machines at its proposed $27 million West Waters Hotel development in Caroline Springs.

The club made a $155,000 contribution to the Melton community, which recorded annual pokie losses of almost $600 per adult last financial year.

Hawthorn chief executive Ian Robson defended the expansion of the football clubs' gaming operations into the western suburbs.

"We believe the investment is appropriate and not inconsistent with the position of AFL football," Mr Robson said.

"The challenge for all of us is to continue to find ways to grow our revenue bases and get involved with businesses that help us to do that," he said.

Western metro Greens MP Colleen Hartland said Hawthorn had cynically targeted one of Melbourne's most disadvantaged suburbs. "Do footy fans really want their clubs to be funded by family break down, crime and lost homes?" she said.

$111,034,930 - estimated gambler losses for 2006/07 calculated by Charles Livingstone.

CARLTON
Machines 108
Gambler losses $10m
Community Benefit $1m

COLLINGWOOD
Machines 298
Gambler losses $28m
Community Benefit $2.5m

ESSENDON
Machines 100
Gambler losses $9m
Community benefit $1.5m

WESTERN BULLDOGS
Machines 138
Gambler losses $13m
Community benefit $1.8m


GEELONG
Machines 100
Gambler losses $9m
Community benefit $1m

HAWTHORN
Machines 75
Gambler losses $7m
Community benefit $1.8m


MELBOURNE
Machines 92
Gambler losses $9m
Community benefit $1m


NORTH MELBOURNE
Machines 40
Gambler losses $4m
Community benefit $0.1m

RICHMOND
Machines 157 Gambler losses $15m
Community benefit $1.8m

ST KILDA
Machines 83
Gambler losses $8m
Community benefit $1.1m

For help or information visit beyondblue.org.au, call Suicide Helpline Victoria on 1300 651 251 or Lifeline on 131 114.


Is it ethical for AFL clubs to derive so much of their revenue from gambling losses?

How many people would be willing to boycott a club activity or even membership to protest about any proposed increase in revenue from gambling?

[rexy]

Alchohol, Gambling, The sex industry or any other means of making a quid that are seen to be unethical or immoral are only made that way by the people who choose to allow themselves to become addicted. Whilst i beleive that the people who operate these industries have a responsibility to educate and support people with problems I do not beleive that stopping these industries is the answer. We must all be responsible for our own actions IMO.

[Saintschampions08]

Alchohol, Gambling, The sex industry or any other means of making a quid that are seen to be unethical or immoral are only made that way by the people who choose to allow themselves to become addicted. Whilst i beleive that the people who operate these industries have a responsibility to educate and support people with problems I do not beleive that stopping these industries is the answer. We must all be responsible for our own actions IMO.

Agree.

It is not the responsibility of the gambling entities to tell you what and what not to do.

[ausfatcat]

this is the interesting part


"St Kilda expected to apply for new machines this year"

[The_Dud]

its a fact that pokies take money, they are programmed to, theres no debating it, theres no chance involved

if you're too simple to see that, then you deserve to be taken to the cleaners....

[Solar]

this is the interesting part


"St Kilda expected to apply for new machines this year"

thats the thing that took my eye, maybe there is more to this move to frankston than we expect. Or perhaps this is the moorabin info still out in the public domain?

[Oh When the Saints]

Any of you who support the club providing gaming machines, let me ask you this?

Have you ever had a family member who was addicted to pokies, or have you ever walked through a casino or a gaming venue at 2pm in the afternoon?

It's sickening. It's heart-wrenching. It's immoral.

Football clubs are supposed to be community organisations.

Yet they actively encourage and indeed run themselves from the money leeched from the most vulnerable in our society.

We have a duty of care to protect those who are vulnerable. It's why we have banned drinking and smoking for those under the age of 18. It's why we put warnings on cigarette packets. It's why advertising of cigarettes is banned.

This duty of care should extend from the government to those addicted to pokies machines, and every single machine in Victoria should be banned IMO.


However, that is an unrealistic expectation from a state government that is addicted to the cash it collects from the addicts ...


But at the very least, surely football clubs - community organisations of recreation and entertainment - should show an understanding of the needs of the vulnerable in the community?


Surely AFL football clubs can derive revenue from sources other than pokies?


Or are we happy to continue to see society's most vulnerable hurt themselves and their families? Whilst we go and buy some new footballs and gym equipment with the money they should be spending on food and clothing?

We live in a society. A community. The very premise of this concept is that we support each other.


The AFL and AFL clubs are failing in their duty of care.

If St Kilda increase the number of pokie machines they control, I'm not buying a membership again.

[TimeToShineFellas]

It's sickening. It's heart-wrenching. It's immoral.

Absolutey OWTS. Agree with you there.

Unfortunately, one thing you can't control is human nature. People will get addicted to everything and anything - smoking, grog, illicit drugs, gambling, sex - you name it, people who are looking to leech off people will put it out there for those who aren't strong to shy away from these things.

I despise the fact that community groups such as football clubs look to profit from these things. But you know what - if it wasn't gambling it would be something else - as long as people can make a quick buck or two inevitably they will suck someone in to make a profit.

[savatage]

If St Kilda increase the number of pokie machines they control, I'm not buying a membership again.

I'd say the loss of one membership won't really be an issue if they're pulling in hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue from new machines.

I personally couldn't care less. It's sad when people get addicted but it's a personal choice, some people take it as amusement & some take it too far, that's something they themselves need to address.

[Oh When the Saints]

I despise the fact that community groups such as football clubs look to profit from these things. But you know what - if it wasn't gambling it would be something else - as long as people can make a quick buck or two inevitably they will suck someone in to make a profit.

If it wasn't gambling, the club could make a profit from something that didn't affect the vulnerable members of our community.

Someone else would probably run the same gaming machines ... but at least it wouldn't be a football club which purports to be a community organisation ...

[Oh When the Saints]

I'd say the loss of one membership won't really be an issue if they're pulling in hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue from new machines.

Of course it won't.

Never know, might get a few people to join me. I reckon I could get 10-15 of my family members to stop buying their memberships.

Perhaps some sort of organisation, where members of AFL clubs refuse to join their particular club until efforts are made to reduce the number of gaming machines ...

Might get a few hundred people across the Melbourne clubs ...

There are other means of protest available. That's just one.

[TimeToShineFellas]

Can I throw a spanner in the works OWTS?

What about Tattersalls? Do you buy a lottery ticket?

If so, and you won Division 1 would you give it back based on the fact that Tattersalls (through its gaming operations) cause people irreparable damage through addiction?

Not trying to be a smart-arse, just wondering on your thoughts (and FWIW I come from the same school of thought you do on pokies).......

[savatage]

I'd say the loss of one membership won't really be an issue if they're pulling in hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue from new machines.

Of course it won't.

Never know, might get a few people to join me. I reckon I could get 10-15 of my family members to stop buying their memberships.

Perhaps some sort of organisation, where members of AFL clubs refuse to join their particular club until efforts are made to reduce the number of gaming machines ...

Might get a few hundred people across the Melbourne clubs ...

There are other means of protest available. That's just one.

I just can't follow your logic at all. You'd boycott the football club you fanatically support by protesting pokie machines.

I've played Pokie machines, I'm not addicted. I know the risks. Why can't other people?

[The_Dud]

they don't hold a gun to your head and force you to play.....

its a personal choice, i myself can't see the point, and frankly can't understand the whole appeal behind them

[Otiman]

every single machine in Victoria should be banned IMO.

Moralistically i'm totally opposed to this, from a freedom of choice point of view. I do not gamble, have not had anyone close suffer from gambling "addiction", and would hate for any one of my family members to do so.

However, people wish to gamble, they have done for centuries, and will continue to do so, be it legally, or underground. I am flat out against gambling, will never gamble myself, and frown upon people who waste their money to fuel gambling.

I'm going to go out on a limb and compare gambling to drugs, but not in the manner you suspect. Drug addiction is a huge problem for society, and people get in to it with their best interests at heart (good, short term fun), but ultimately can be (are?) exploited from any long term benefit. I don't believe in strict policing of drug use. Large scale distribution I agree must be curbed (or at least appear to be curbed, from a political perspective).

There is no short or long term solution to the problems of gambling and drugs, and whilst they are not linked, these two potentially destructive facets of society will continue to exist, either above ground (TAB/Pokies/Casino/Alcohol/Cigarettes) or underground (Cockfights/Dodgy bookies/Illicit Drugs).

I got extremely sidetracked here, but I will post this anyway. Furthermore to the issue of banning of pokies in victoria, this reliance of AFL clubs on their revenue will see a slight public backlash to the banning of them. "If you ban pokies, you will kill the Western Bulldogs". It's this hold of gambling venues on our AFL clubs (and not vice versa) that is the problem here.

[Otiman]

they don't hold a gun to your head and force you to play.

The issue is that they use specific psychological tactics to entice you to play (pretty lights, chinking of coins, touting the magnificent prizes that can be won). Whilst return ratios are set by government at 93% return (i believe), and 97% for Crown Casino pokies, the rates of winning are set that players are strung along and there is massive amounts of research done by corporations on the psychology of winning, losing, and greed.

[Solar]

they don't hold a gun to your head and force you to play.

The issue is that they use specific psychological tactics to entice you to play (pretty lights, chinking of coins, touting the magnificent prizes that can be won). Whilst return ratios are set by government at 93% return (i believe), and 97% for Crown Casino pokies, the rates of winning are set that players are strung along and there is massive amounts of research done by corporations on the psychology of winning, losing, and greed.

it's actually 87 cents in every dollar you gamble. Worst odds in all gambling

[saintspremiers]

I envy Collingwood.

They have nearly 300 pokies, get $28M revenue, split over about 5 clubs throughout Melbourne.

We need more than just Moorabbin with 83 machines.

We need another big venue with 50+ machines.

Our revenue base is too small, we all know that.

Pokies are a reliable quick fix for that.

Footy is very competitive off the field - no point in us being all moralistic if all the other Melbourne based clubs have pokies.....can't beat 'em, so may as well join them and rake in as much as we can!

[The_Dud]

they don't hold a gun to your head and force you to play.

The issue is that they use specific psychological tactics to entice you to play (pretty lights, chinking of coins, touting the magnificent prizes that can be won). Whilst return ratios are set by government at 93% return (i believe), and 97% for Crown Casino pokies, the rates of winning are set that players are strung along and there is massive amounts of research done by corporations on the psychology of winning, losing, and greed.

still, they don't hold a gun to your head.....

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Aren't pokie machines the key point of contention with Kingston that led to the Frankston move in the first place? Hasn't this information been around, including being debated on this board since well before Butterss was ousted?

Pokie venues are some of the saddest dumping grounds of common sense I've ever come across... but it's not like St. KFC and footy clubs using them is new... so to wax moral over their increase is a very interesting place to choose to draw the line.

[savatage]

Pokie venues are some of the saddest dumping grounds of common sense I've ever come across... but it's not like St. KFC and footy clubs using them is new... so to wax moral over their increase is a very interesting place to choose to draw the line.

Exactly my thoughts.

[cowboy18]

They're a tax on the poor and the stupid.

The ethics and morals are something we can all wave our arms around on - I dislike them immensely for the way they impact upon people who haven't chosen to use them.

I think they are a poor and unsustainable funding model too - the tide of public opinion will see a greater proportion of gambling revenue taken by governments/put back into the community if current trajectories of change continue. Becoming reliant on gambling income makes the club(s) susceptible to things they can't control.

[saintbrat]

I wondered about this guys information base- seems a little flawed-
the saints have stated all along they are NOT moving the social club area to Frankston, he stated on radio that as almost fact
now it may be the ASSUMPTION by many that they will but it's not the fact - at this point in time!!

clubs scramble for the corporate dollar
if it's not the pokies its food and drink- the biggest money making drink is usually alcoholic- I am sure you would find just a strong opposition to more pubs and bars being opened in certain areas.
food- now for some of us that's an addiction too and the countries obesity levels are rising-

where and what else is there ?

the addiction debate can go on for many things ( internet)
and as with most things for some it is controllable - for others it's not and they need greater outside boundaries.

[ausfatcat]

they don't hold a gun to your head and force you to play.

The issue is that they use specific psychological tactics to entice you to play (pretty lights, chinking of coins, touting the magnificent prizes that can be won). Whilst return ratios are set by government at 93% return (i believe), and 97% for Crown Casino pokies, the rates of winning are set that players are strung along and there is massive amounts of research done by corporations on the psychology of winning, losing, and greed.

still, they don't hold a gun to your head.....

Don't they payout out 87 cents in the dollar not keep 87 cents in the dollar.

[nicola69]

poker machines - I don't like 'em either and would prefer that AFL clubs weren't making money from them.

The reason that the machines tend to be located in the poorer parts of town (and I live about 1 km from the poorest postcode in Melbourne - Braybrook - & no doubt there are many close seconds) is that poorer people, because of their straightened circumstances, see gambling as a way out of their situation. It is part of the desparation of life for them.

Social justice is the answer. If people have opportunities to improve their lot and steady incomes they don't gamble like that.