Grams overhead work stinks!

[yipper]

Gram plays the running half-back role superbly - very much like the NFL's Quarterback!! He sets up the structured forward movement with his run and long, accurate kicking. Vital player in the modern game - but if you want a shut-down defender who can punch and spoil - look elsewhere.

Gram is a very good player. And he is the type of player the opposition will now try and shut down.

[HSVKing]

Do you REALLY want to start this up? I just want to know now if you are prepared for whats coming, thats all.

Hurt your feelings, did he?

Take it on the chin and retort properly, that's just a nothing reply from you.

Thats a bit of the pot calling the kettle black judging by the above.

I'm satisfied with my response, despite a number of posters still playing the man not the ball (I thought this wasn't allowed anymore?)

Since when are we banning constructive criticism?

And if you are worried about the verbal 'attack'... The first 'threat' was actually made by yourself.

Nothing wrong with this thread at all... What I question is though... If it were about another player, would you have come out and defended them as well???

As for my input, I have seen this as his biggest weakness all along. In his defence, he has played on a few players bigger than himself, so not always an easy thing to do. I have seen him go for the mark, instead of punching from behind many times. As a defender, the spoil is the first option unless you're infront. As a backman, defend first, attack from your defence.

[spiral2]

I recall Gram chipping in with some nice spoils at times, but it's when he has a run at a contest and can use his pace to cut off passes or catch opponents on a lead.
when the delivery is better or one on one I agree he struggles

if he works on one on one strength (body wise) will that limit his run & speed?
I'd rather he keeps fast & fit than get slower and slightly better in a contest.
hopefully he can make improvement through technique rather than adding bulk.

[iwantmeseats]

he shouldn't be played as a 'defensive' defender, because to be honest, he's flat out hopeless at it

played as a 'attacking' defender or on the wing, he's one of the best in the league

I agree totally. In a attacking defender come wingman/almost midfielder he shines. Anything else, and he can be suspect.

[saintsRrising]

he shouldn't be played as a 'defensive' defender, because to be honest, he's flat out hopeless at it

played as a 'attacking' defender or on the wing, he's one of the best in the league

I agree totally. In a attacking defender come wingman/almost midfielder he shines. Anything else, and he can be suspect.

That does not mean that when he needs to that he cannot spoli better.

Even as an 'attacking" defender it means that by definition that he is in defence....and therefore there will times each match that he will need to spoil.


He dose not have to be exceptional at it like Max...or be expected to minda "leading" forward.......but he does need to well called for be able to spoli better than he currently can.

[Animal Enclosure]

Gram was great in 06 & IMO our most disappointing player in 07. I know that he had a hip injury for a while but he really went backwards.

08 is a big year for Grammy, he needs to work his butt off & become more than a flashy player off half back. Opposition coaches have worked him out & others have noted, will attempt to drag him deep & make him accountable. That's why he should be in the 'true' midfield location and sweeping back across half back to help out.

He has the athletic ability of a Judd but has got to work on the footy side of things.

Go Grammy, we need you to take the next step (even 2 more steps!)

[Batnoe]

Most people's over head work does stink, have you ever put your mouth accidentally under their arm pit? it really stinks and tastes bad too

[bigcarl]

That's why he should be in the 'true' midfield location and sweeping back across half back to help out.

agree. can be quite a devastating attacking player if used properly

[Teflon]

he shouldn't be played as a 'defensive' defender, because to be honest, he's flat out hopeless at it

played as a 'attacking' defender or on the wing, he's one of the best in the league

I think thats right.

Im surprised no ones mentioned Aussie Jones in this thread - for mine for years he put NO body contact on opponents, had his tackles shrugged off and when he haf to compete in the air looked like he simply threw the arms up for dramatic effect -YET - he was one of the best rebounding defenders in the game (with far better disposal than Gram).

ALL players can get better at aspects of their game - Id love to see R Harvey spear a 40 low burning Buckley pass onto Gehrigs chest - aint gonna happen. Its horses for courses and how you put the "jigsaw" together that makes the team function as one. That doesnt mean you stop trying - and yep Gram could do worse to see Gilbert/Hayes/Ball for some tackle tips.

[saint66au]

despite a number of posters still playing the man not the ball

Exhibit A your honour

Calm down Ric...its all good. Grammy aint the only one who's 1-on-1 skills are lacking. Max is sublime, Goose good but the rest very ordinary. Even Chipper, God love him, can take a great contested mark but is ordinary when he's in a position where he HAS to spoil (That glorious goal against Geelong notwithstanding!)

Raph and Fergs (both towelled up by Pettifer last year), Bakes (ditto Johnson) and Fish all need work on this side of their game.

If our midfield succeed in forcing haphazard delivery into the opposition 50, we MUST be able to get the ball to ground level more often than not, so as to allow the Grams and Chippers to exhibit their skill in quicky and precisely getting it outta there!

[To the top]

This is a bit severe on Gram.

In his "introduction year" when he cemented a half-back flank and confirmed he could really play the game, his closing speed and spoiling were excellent.

The problem last year was that he played injured, as evidenced in the game v. Essendon when they worked on his back at quarter time, he went off and had to return later (to CHB I seem to recall).

He was never "right" physically at any time of the year and was playing to protect his body.

He has the height, he has the speed and he can spoil very effectively.

Hopefully in 2008 we will see him free of injury.

[barneyboyz]

IMO the team structure should be that which allows Gram to do what he is best at, namely run and break lines. Opposition coaches know that and try to make him accountable, which is the weakness in his game. RL has to respond quicker this year to that tactic, as his drive from the half back line is a vital element in our game. He should never have a tagging or key defensive role.

Last year several players were having to play roles which they might not be used to, there was not much of this talk about his defensive work the year before when he was really flying. when the whole team (defense especially) works together these weaknesses are nullified. best he plays the role for which he was meant to and not get too worried; remember Mc geogh (spelling?), if he was allowed to just play the game he was good at, he would still be playing for Collingwood, but no in the end the poor bloke didn't know what he was supposed to do

I would expect Gram would be doing alot of work on all facets of his game and at any rate, if he goes as good as 2006, then we will soon forget about his lack of punching from behind, I'm sure

[GeorgeYoung27]

Perhaps if you were watching the replay of the Essendon game and not the Filth game you might have a different opinion. He played on and beat Lucas (due to Sammy going down injured) in a losing side. On last year's form that is pretty impressive. Maxy is probably our best spoiler and if you look at 2006 game against Neitz, he looked pretty average also. Goose looked hopeless against Lynch in the WCE game. Harves looked slow against the Eagles.

The trick is, don't isolate one game and then make a sweeping statement. AFL is full of generalisations and myths-that-become-facts.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Perhaps if you were watching the replay of the Essendon game and not the Filth game you might have a different opinion. He played on and beat Lucas (due to Sammy going down injured) in a losing side. On last year's form that is pretty impressive. Maxy is probably our best spoiler and if you look at 2006 game against Neitz, he looked pretty average also. Goose looked hopeless against Lynch in the WCE game. Harves looked slow against the Eagles.

The trick is, don't isolate one game and then make a sweeping statement. AFL is full of generalisations and myths-that-become-facts.

i actually thought he got murdered deep inside defensive 50 in the dons game...he isn't a chb though so there is no point in whining about why his spoiling efforts arent as a good as a seasons defensive pro

[LENNY LEADS THE WAY]

Gram on a wing running bouncing loading up from 50 i'd like to see that.

[CURLY]

Perhaps if you were watching the replay of the Essendon game and not the Filth game you might have a different opinion. He played on and beat Lucas (due to Sammy going down injured) in a losing side. On last year's form that is pretty impressive. Maxy is probably our best spoiler and if you look at 2006 game against Neitz, he looked pretty average also. Goose looked hopeless against Lynch in the WCE game. Harves looked slow against the Eagles.

The trick is, don't isolate one game and then make a sweeping statement. AFL is full of generalisations and myths-that-become-facts.

Ryan Lonie played a good game on Lucas once to and hes terrible overhead. Watch any of Grams games were the ball comes in high and you will see he struggles for body position and timing.

[snippa]

Gram's strength isn't man-on-man or spoiling. He makes up for that in speed and delivery.

Exactly. Nobody can be perfect in every single way, name a player and I'll tell you where he sucks.

To open a thread lamping a best 22 player on one aspect of his game (based on flimsy evidence at best, it needs to be said) is a little bit rich. don't you think?

I know the off season is dull, but don't go spoiling for fights, please.

Get over yourself.......

Tell me where Judd sucks..or Jonathon Brown for that matter

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I agree with those who criticise Gram's overhead work from a defensive standpoint, but I'm really not sure why others are getting so defensive about it. As others have point out, Gram certainly isn't playing in the back 6 because of his defensive acumen... therefore the opposition is always going to be trying to make him accountable, and play defense before offense, and teams would take the same approach even if he were great overhead... It's what teams do against Macleod or Gilbee, so it's not like it's an insult to Gram.

What's important about it is to realise that by addressing this Gram could be one of the best rebounding half backs in the competition. He's got speed, ground skills, penetration from his kicking, aggression, and is a fair tackler. His kicking may not be Aussie Jones good, but very few are, if Jones hadn't been his predecessor, I probably wouldn't even think of accuracy. The major area he could improve is his overhead work.

The other aspect of this is from Lyon's perspective it needs to be dealt with when other teams do engineer a matchup of a strong overhead player on Gram. If a 3rd tall can cut off a lot of the ball, there's no issue, so he can drop a man back. If Gram can expose that player regularly on the rebound, then he can win the matchup while losing marking contests, and there's no issue, With the return of a lot of players, Lyon can also move Gram up the ground, be it on the ming or in the middle, taking a forward out of circulation.

Saying Gram is weak overhead is not saying Gram's a bad player, but for him to be a complete one, or be considered elite in his position, he needs to address it. Should the Saints actually lose because of it, it really goes back to coaching though.

[SENsei]

how you put the "jigsaw" together that makes the team function as one.

Excellent line.

[barks4eva]

IMHO Gram is a wingman, NOT a defender and should be played there accordingly

Gram is as other's have pointed out exposed overhead and a liabilty as such in the backline, however, Gram has the potential to be one of the most damaging wingmen in the competition, and I believe structually that this is the best for position for not only him, but for the team also.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

IMHO Gram is a wingman, NOT a defender and should be played there accordingly

Gram is as other's have pointed out exposed overhead and a liabilty as such in the backline, however, Gram has the potential to be one of the most damaging wingmen in the competition, and I believe structually that this is the best for position for not only him, but for the team also.

You use the word liability very loosely. It only fits Gram under certain circumstances, where he's held accountable (i.e. no spare man, and we've got a few players who do that very well), where he's forced into one on one encounters, and where his own contribution is neutralised.

It's possible to expose Gram, but any game where he's a "liability", you'll tend to see either a very depleted St. K lineup, or an opposition that has played and been coached well.

I'm a bigtime proponent of Gram on the wing, I think it suits his skills better and we've got the options to try it now, but pure game experience makes it likely he'd be beaten on the wings as often as he'd be beaten in the backline... so for pure potential, he'd be better off fixing the hole in his game than hoping the coach gives him an easier task.

[bigcarl]

I'm a bigtime proponent of Gram on the wing, I think it suits his skills better and we've got the options to try it now, but pure game experience makes it likely he'd be beaten on the wings as often as he'd be beaten in the backline... so for pure potential, he'd be better off fixing the hole in his game than hoping the coach gives him an easier task.

he should fix the hole in his game and play on the wing where he'd be a devastating weapon

[fonz_#15]

I agree with those who criticise Gram's overhead work from a defensive standpoint, but I'm really not sure why others are getting so defensive about it. As others have point out, Gram certainly isn't playing in the back 6 because of his defensive acumen... therefore the opposition is always going to be trying to make him accountable, and play defense before offense, and teams would take the same approach even if he were great overhead... It's what teams do against Macleod or Gilbee, so it's not like it's an insult to Gram.

What's important about it is to realise that by addressing this Gram could be one of the best rebounding half backs in the competition. He's got speed, ground skills, penetration from his kicking, aggression, and is a fair tackler. His kicking may not be Aussie Jones good, but very few are, if Jones hadn't been his predecessor, I probably wouldn't even think of accuracy. The major area he could improve is his overhead work.

The other aspect of this is from Lyon's perspective it needs to be dealt with when other teams do engineer a matchup of a strong overhead player on Gram. If a 3rd tall can cut off a lot of the ball, there's no issue, so he can drop a man back. If Gram can expose that player regularly on the rebound, then he can win the matchup while losing marking contests, and there's no issue, With the return of a lot of players, Lyon can also move Gram up the ground, be it on the ming or in the middle, taking a forward out of circulation.

Saying Gram is weak overhead is not saying Gram's a bad player, but for him to be a complete one, or be considered elite in his position, he needs to address it. Should the Saints actually lose because of it, it really goes back to coaching though.

spot on as usual bam.

i will always be the first to talk grammy up, he is by far my favourite player, but i will always be the first to see flaws in his game as i watch him more than i do others.

he is well below average overhead and unless the issue is addressed he must not play in the back 6.

opposition teams are aware of the flaw in his game, and are also aware of his strong rebounding game, and this is why he was dragged to the goal square in the second half of the season last year, it is a double positive for the opposition (exposes weakness, takes away greatest strength being rebound 50's).

Gram must be used as a winger for these reasons as he was nowhere near as impressive in the 2nd half of last season.

[vacuous space]

I've got to disagree with most people in this thread. I think Gram is quite good defensively and times his runs well. He does a really good job of being accountable for his opponent. He's been beaten, as have the best defenders in the game. Before anybody starts throwing the word 'liability' around I want to see more than two games picked at random as evidence.