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jezza wrote:The only name we are talking about changing is the VFL Name from the Casey Scorps to the Frankston Scorps.The AFL NAME WILL NEVER CHANGE.Some people get a bit hot under the collar.Casey good argument but in time your beautiful ground will be great for the Cranbourne FC. Or perhaps the VFL can take control and have the ground as its headquarters.How long is the current alingment deal for.
Cheers
Jezza
Jezza, you are displaying both inconsistency and ignorance. I’m glad you’ve now said that the St Kilda name won’t change, and most people are saying it is a location descriptor rather than a name change. But you previously referred to the Frankston Saints – now you’re saying the Frankston Scorpions. I would be very surprised if:
• the Casey Scorpions moved to Frankston and became the Frankston Scorpions
• the Frankston Dolphins changed their name to the Frankston Scorpions.
It just doesn’t make any sense that any team called the Frankston Scorpions would ever come into existence. And what would happen to the Frankston FC if the Casey Scorpions moved to Frankston? There’s no way they are going anywhere else.
The Casey Fields VFL ground will almost certainly continue to have a VFL team domiciled there. There is no reason why it won’t be the Casey Scorpions. Whether the alignment with St Kilda lasts is another matter. The alignments are only generally year to year propositions.
The Cranbourne FC will obviously continue to use the VFL ground at Casey Fields for their matches, the same as they have done for the past couple of years.
TimeToShineFellas wrote:
riccardo wrote:Question: what happens to the Frankston Dolphins, then? Do they lose thier identity, merge with Casey, what?
Don't forget that Springvale were the original Scorpions, and lost their identity when they went to Cranbourne.
On the matter of identity:
• St Kilda as a nationally recognised entity should never change (and won’t in my opinion)
• the Springvale Scorpions relocated and became the Casey Scorpions as an alternative to dissolution. The once powerful Springvale had lost its supporter base with massive demographic change in the area, and struggled through many years of an itinerant existence moving home grounds between Springvale, Waverley Park, Moorabbin and Shepley Oval in Dandenong. The move to Casey has resurrected the club, and the identity “Caseyâ€
Can I just explain in 1 big post what is going on at the moment.
It frustrates me as a long time follower of the VFA/VFL that, after years of neglect we are all experts on exactly how VFL clubs are run and what is best for them and why isn't this that and the other happening, when it finally interests us! I am not reffering to anyone individually, and not necessarily about posters on saintsational. Just the general lack of knowledge from the public about the VFL competition.
Springvale have a long pround history of over 100 years, unfortunately the demographics of the area meant a struggle financially. Couple that with not as much council support as what is needed, and refusal to assist in facility upgrades and the club was on it's knees. I will tell you now, comparitavely what the Knagaroos are going through now is nothing compared to that of the 'vales. Rather than die, some strong leadership and bold decisions along with a very strong offer from the Casey coucil was too good to be rejected, and the club can live on! VERY VERY similar move to that of the Saints' to Moorabbin in '65 WHICH KILLED ANOTHER VFA CLUB.
Casey work off one of the lowest revenue streams in the VFL.
The City of Casey, has made no secret of pursuing a national brand (i.e sporting team) to the area, and threw everything they could, while still keeping in mind the communities needs.
The Saints rejected it, fair enough, thats water under the bridge. The 1 factor that tipped the scales for the move to Frankston, was that the Saints would own a $1Million block of land, all that crap about Cafe's, lifestyle etc. is Rubbish, the places are 15 minutes away.
Alignments are a 2 way street and IF AFL CLUBS WANT 100% CONTROL OVER PLAYERS THEY HAVE THE OPTION TO STAND ALONE. St. Kilda could not afford it! And the Scorpions, in a league that had the guts ripped out of it couldn't afford it! An alignment suited, and it is reviewed on an annual basis.
The intricacies and fine details of the deal are beyond the knowledge that most of you display on here, how long ago was the Moorabbin Redevelopment announced??? Sounded alot similar to the Frankston one, all it takes is a slight change of mind by the local goverment, or a loophole in the system and it doesn't happen.
If you guys sit down and read Caseyscorp's posts, his knowledge of the situation is well beyond anybody,and on top of this he has simply been pointing out hurdles that have popped up, and problems that we will no doubt face. For ignorent one eyed posters to make comments such as 'get over it' or time to move on etc. etc. shows a severe lack of understanding for what it is worth, and an easy dig at someone who is on the ball.
It frustrates me as a St. Kilda supporter the way so many of us just assume it's all gung-ho and the everything is fine and dandy. Caseyscorp wants the best outcome for the Saints just as anyone one else.
On the alignment situation, I am a 4th or 5th generation St, Kilda supporter, I am also a Casey supporter, to be honest the best possible outcome for both clubs to stand alone if they were both financially viable, the saints may be able to do it now, the Scorpions are a couple of years away. The alignment has suited me fine, however for the sake of the VFL they a crap, pointless and demeaning.but the AFL teams need them just as much as the VFL.
The Frankston situation raises an interesting topic, the Dolphins have never wanted an alignment, they have always been financially sound. They were very nearly forced to take up an alignment with the Kangaroos this year and fought tooth and nail to reject it. The Sanits moving to Frankston Park can potentially have long term damaging effects on a proud strong club, I would not be at all suprised to see them align, however the VFL changes so much every year, who knows in 5 years there may not even be alignments. Something else that has been floated is the possibility for the 2 clubs share the alignment.
And for those people who think that it's crap for the Saints to have an Alignment with Casey because look where they are etc. The reason the saints ever got accepted into the VFL was because they were to represent the Southern Suburbs, has nothing to do with bayside whatever, we are very very lucky they we got in over say a Port Melbourne, because in the early days we really were rabble. look where Casey is, right in the middle of the southern Growth Corridor, fits in fine i think.
And Jezza, I really don't know what you have been on about, just because your son is now a Frankston boy, it didn't take to long to jump on the Casey Frankston rivalry did it. The council support and AFLVIC and AFL support for Casey is well beyond what you would imagine, they now are very safe and will have another 100 years of success! I don't know hwere you are pulling this Frankston Scorps stuff from.
St Fidelius wrote:
Just a question to you Casey, and I have no doubt you must have followed both the Saints and Springvale/Casey Scorps for a long time...
I believe that you must have loved it when the two clubs formed an alliance and it must have been what you have been hoping for...
Actually I haven't followed the Scorps for that long. I was a young kid in Elwood and have supported the Saints all my life. I didn't go to Springvale matches until the alignment, and initially only sporadically. As a Casey resident, I took a far greater interest in Springvale when the move to Casey was first mooted and I started going to their matches more regularly. I've been a Casey Scorpions member since the move to Casey Fields.
St Fidelius wrote:
But what do you say that the Saints have at least requested on two occasions to join up with Frankston...
Does that mean they are not happy with the alliance ???
The alignments have been around for a while so it wouldn't surprise me if the Saints had sought an alignment with Frankston at some stage. It would be interesting to know, if that is the case, when the last time was. The relationship seems to have been considerably stronger over the past 12 months, but that may have been driven by an expectation by the Saints that they were headed to Casey Fields until the Frankston option appeared.
St Fidelius wrote:
Would you follow another VFL club if St Kilda chose another club??
That is the most interesting question of all, and makes me look deep into myself. Over the last few years I have gone to most of the Saints and Scorpions matches. When the Saints and Scorpions matches clash there is no question - I go to Saints matches (unless they're in Perth). If the current alignment fractured, I would definitely maintain my membership of the Scorpions (as they are now my local team and I have now formed the emotional bond that links supporters to a club) and I would still go to the Casey H&A matches.
Assuming it was Frankston that had the Saints listed players, I'd go to the home Frankston matches when St Kilda or the Scorpions were not playing (because it's close to home). I wouldn't take out a membership of Frankston. When the Scorpions played Frankston, I would support Casey over the Dolphins. It would be an interesting ethical dilemma for me, but I've thought it through over the past few months and tried to place my heart in the position of having to choose in a close finish, and reckon I just couldn't support the Dolphins who are now Casey's greatest rivals.
RBnW wrote:
, Frankston Dolphins still playing at Frankston Oval happy to stand alone in the VFL as they have for over 100 years...
Good post, but just one correction: Frankston only entered the VFA in the 1960's, so hardly 100 years of tradition there. They were in the metropolitan leagues prior to that, but I'm not sure how long they've been around.
1966 - Frankston joins VFA Second Division after being part of the Mornington Peninsula Football League since the club was formed in 1887. Lose to Mordialloc by 10 points in the first game at Frankston Oval.
thanks to casey scorps and iceman for some great reading. Just a couple of thoughts from me.
I totally agree with both when they say that the VFL is a ever changing environment, so like picking the top 8 in three years time, it's next to impossible to guess what the alignments will be after the development.
The one thing that pricked my ears up was the idea of splitting players between the two clubs, which could create a very good outcome for all three clubs as it would spread out the talent/positions of AFL listed players while still allowing both clubs to keep the majority of their team as VFL players. Works well in SA and WA and since both places are very close it could be very workable. Would also perhaps releave the tensions of tryibg to fit 3-4 AFL listed ruckman or midfielders into one VFL team which either means VFL players don't get a chance or not enough game time for the AFL players.
On the move to frankston, it sounds like the club really needs to work hard to get this through. Beware who you get into bed with, it might not take much to turn the dolphins or the locals against us. At least currently all parties are working towards a goal, which is completely different to the moorabin development. But I would recommend this analysus needs to continue until 2010/11 to make sure we get these facilities.
Personally I don't care which area we go to as long as we get the facilties we need to compete with the other AFL clubs. As everyone on here, I just want the best for the saints.
But great commentary and I look forward to reading more
FQF
loyal in the good times and bad
In richo I trust
2013 trade/draft best ever?
Billings - future brownlow medallist Longer - future best ruck
Dunstan - future captain Eli - future cult hero
Acres - future norm smith
I was always refering to the VFL.Yes i made a typo error.Of course the Saints will never change their name and yes the casey scorps are new regig of the old springvale fc. We all have our own thoughts on the subject but it is amazing what can happen when you share a training facitity.It just becomes common sense as far as training goes.Can you ever see Frankston F/C allowing the Casey players to train with the saints players at their home ground before a game ,i don' think so.And as far as i know the amount of Saints players who train at Casey before a game is almost non existent. Perhaps if we all add a bit of common sense to this topic we may in time understand the logic of Casey and the Saints sticking it out. If the saints want to continue with Casey then perhaps some long term committment would stop this type of topic.
I’ve mentioned before about hurdles which will pop up in respect of the Frankston development. There’ll be quite a few, but this is one I hadn’t expected.
Got the goss during the week that heritage issues had arisen, and did a bit of research.
Seems that the block of land that the Council is going to give the Saints has some heritage significance – “high local historical and archaeological significanceâ€
wow casey thats a very interesting pot hole to bring up, maybe this is why we have heard nothing since the announcement. Suprised it was not removed from listing if the council was positive about this development. Heritage overlays are very hard to get around.
FQF
loyal in the good times and bad
In richo I trust
2013 trade/draft best ever?
Billings - future brownlow medallist Longer - future best ruck
Dunstan - future captain Eli - future cult hero
Acres - future norm smith
Solar wrote:wow casey thats a very interesting pot hole to bring up, maybe this is why we have heard nothing since the announcement. Suprised it was not removed from listing if the council was positive about this development. Heritage overlays are very hard to get around.
heritage overlays are generally to do with the council only...... Who is giving us the land?
and besides that YOU THE HELL SAYS A BLOCK OF LAND IN THE MIDDLE OF A TWON HAS GERITAGE VALUE FFS
Solar wrote:wow casey thats a very interesting pot hole to bring up, maybe this is why we have heard nothing since the announcement. Suprised it was not removed from listing if the council was positive about this development. Heritage overlays are very hard to get around.
It couldn't have been removed from any listing previously, because its only been added to the list in the last fortnight.
ausfatcat wrote:heritage overlays are generally to do with the council only...... Who is giving us the land?
This one's interesting - it's not a heritage overlay under the planning scheme. It's a listing on the Heritage Register. There isn't a clean interface between the two controls.
Nevertheless the Council would probably have known about the site as it would no doubt have been identified in a Council heritage study at some time.
Mr Magic wrote:So are you saying that the Council who seemed happy enough to 'front' the PR announcement of the dea' are throwing up roadblocks to stop the deal?
No, I don’t believe the Council had any involvement in seeking the listing; I think it was the initiative of local residents with an interest in either, or both:
• local history
• stopping the St Kilda development.
I mentioned in an earlier post about the natives getting restless. I think this is what is happening here, and this might just be the first salvo from the anti-St Kilda development group. Alternatively, it might just be people with a genuine desire to protect some local heritage.
My comment about the Council was on the basis that most Councils have done heritage studies over the last couple of decades to document sites and buildings of historical interest or significance. It would be very surprising if the Council had not done a study, and that study had not identified this site.
I think there will be a number of issues arise because the whole thing was rushed and, in order to maintain secrecy, probably not referred to the right people for comment.
[quote="casey scorp"]I’ve mentioned before about hurdles which will pop up in respect of the Frankston development. There’ll be quite a few, but this is one I hadn’t expected.
Got the goss during the week that heritage issues had arisen, and did a bit of research.
Seems that the block of land that the Council is going to give the Saints has some heritage significance – “high local historical and archaeological significanceâ€
GrumpyOne wrote:Somebody closer to the site might correct me, but I've a feeling that any physical evidence of this inn no longer exists.
So how to we commemorate a building that is not there any more? With an empty block???
Surely erecting a sign that says "On this ste etc etc etc..." fulfills the requirement.
You’re correct that there’s no building on the site – what’s there at the moment is a public carpark for about 20 cars.
The listing is for archaeological reasons. Archaeology is “the scientific study of ancient cultures through the examination of their material remains such as buildings, graves, tools, and other artefacts usually dug up from the groundâ€
jezza wrote:Hey ice man do you want some tissues.Time will tell.Perhaps you and Casey can support Cranbourne together.
Jezza, I was explaining some points about the VFL competition which you will no doubt experience with your son now at Frankston. And I really don't know where you are coming from with this Carnbourne, Frankston Scorpions, St. Kilda Dolphins etc. business. You show a severe lack of understanding for the competition and this Frankston/Saints situation, why don't you be constructive.
Interesting place Frankston - I was driving through Frankston late one night/ early morning on my way back from Mornington and slammed the brakes on in Nepean Hwy near the Pier Hotel as there was bloke laying on the road in the middle lane of the three lane highway -no worries, his mates? grabbed him by the legs and dragged him off the road..A few month earlier we were driving to Mornington one night and saw a bloke laying on the side of the road just outside of Frankston..thinking he may have been injured, we backed back to have a look -he sat up, looked around, then got up and walked away. I regret moving into a boring suburb..Frankston is much more exciting -I think the Saints will benefit greatly f\rom the move south.
spert wrote:Interesting place Frankston - I was driving through Frankston late one night/ early morning on my way back from Mornington and slammed the brakes on in Nepean Hwy near the Pier Hotel as there was bloke laying on the road in the middle lane of the three lane highway -no worries, his mates? grabbed him by the legs and dragged him off the road..A few month earlier we were driving to Mornington one night and saw a bloke laying on the side of the road just outside of Frankston..thinking he may have been injured, we backed back to have a look -he sat up, looked around, then got up and walked away. I regret moving into a boring suburb..Frankston is much more exciting -I think the Saints will benefit greatly f\rom the move south.
Obviously Frankston's population are a bunch of lay-abouts.
The sale of the block of land in Plowman Place Frankston to the St Kilda football club appears in the Public Notices of local Frankston paper today.
For those in the know, does this mean there are no heritage issues associated with the site, or do they come up in the next 14 days when people have a chance to make a submission?
