training today

[CURLY]

Its fair to say no one knows just how well Gadener will go this season. A couple of examples that give me confidece that he can contribute are Paul Salmon and more recent Brendan Lade. Both suffered long breaks in there career but were and are great players after injury. Salmon played well into his 30's and as his body matured was rarelly injured.

[CURLY]

For every player that has come back from long term injuries as good as when he left, there are a dozen who never recovered.

I hope Gardiner comes back and decemates the competition, but the more likley senario is he will play a couple of ordinary games and break down again.

At the moment, this very second, he is a waste of money, effort and time. I really he won't always be, but history suggests otherwise.

Is this attitude based or football based because 28 year old AA ruckmen arent dropping from trees and were hardly over our heads in ruckmen so hes well worth it.

[saintsRrising]

It is probably worth reflecting that Matthews at the Lions during their multi-premiership era had as a key part of his game plan ruckmen.

And that these ruckmen were in fact quite injury prone .....

Matthews cunning was ensuring that he had a good pool to cover this...and was not reliant on just the one ruckman.

Name Games Average

2003

Clark Keating 12 18.67
Beau McDonald 9 16.89
Jamie Charman 26 15.27
Dylan McLaren 5 10.20

2002

Clark Keating 12 19.42
Beau McDonald 15 18.73
Jamie Charman 20 14.05

2001
Clark Keating 20 18.35
Beau McDonald 23 17.04
Matthew Kennedy 8 1.00

[saintsRrising]

And on Clark Keating...who was a dominant ruckman in two GF victories....we see a lot of games missed..and an entire season in 2000!!!

One could make an argument that in terms of GF successes that he has been the most dominant GF ruckman in recent history.....but he missed a lot of games....including in two of his premiership years.

In his 3 premiership years he only played 44 out of a possible 78 games.....!!!!

Team Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts Frees For Frees Ag. Brownlow
2006 Brisbane 7 28 30 58 19 1 1 6 95 9 11
2005 Brisbane 15 61 47 108 31 10 7 24 196 14 12
2004 Brisbane 11 44 30 74 24 5 8 12 175 10 10
2003 Brisbane 12 47 31 78 20 5 6 15 224 7 9
2002 Brisbane 12 35 33 68 19 4 2 12 233 10 12
2001 Brisbane 20 70 51 121 47 15 9 25 367 12 19 1
2000 Nil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1999 Brisbane 21 95 35 130 53 18 7 18 358 21 18 6
1998 Brisbane 7 29 33 62 13 1 3 6 65 4 6
1997 Brisbane 20 136 67 203 83 15 6 13 140 0 0 3
1996 Brisbane 14 70 44 114 35 9 3 10 62 0 0
Career 139 615 401 1016 344 83 52 141 1915 87 97 10

[st.byron]

I hope Gardiner comes back and decemates the competition, but the more likley senario is he will play a couple of ordinary games and break down again..

based on what>?

At the moment, this very second, he is a waste of money, effort and time. I really he won't always be, but history suggests otherwise.

examples?

Based on his history HD. He has never recovered his all-australian form since having a knee re-co and on the few occasions he has stepped onto an AFL field he's been a waste of space. My scepticism is nothign to do with his attitude, it's his playing history. Hope I'm wrong, but I agree with Ricc on this one.

[rodgerfox]

It is probably worth reflecting that Matthews at the Lions during their multi-premiership era had as a key part of his game plan ruckmen.

And that these ruckmen were in fact quite injury prone .....

Matthews cunning was ensuring that he had a good pool to cover this...and was not reliant on just the one ruckman.

I've always thought this was a myth.

Clark Keating never dominated anything - except a puny, scared and inexpereinced Josh Fraser in the 2002 GF.

Infact, had Josh Fraser had Voss, Black, Lappin, Akermanis, Power and co. at his feet, he would too be remembered as a premiership ruckman.

There was no cunning about it from Matthews. McDonald was a dud (who broke down in the first quarter of a GF), and Keating was a handy ruckman who could push forward effectively. Neither dominated anything.

In the 01 win, Keating touched the ball 5 times, and took 1 mark. McDonald touched the ball once.

Alessio had 10 disposals and only 1 less hitout than the Brisbane ruckmen.

In 02, Keating dominated the rucks clearly. But, he smashed Josh Fraser and McKee - not exactly cunning by Matthews, moreso good fortune.

Having said that, McKee had 16 touches and Fraser had 14. Fraser also kicked 3 goals and the two he missed could have made it 5.
Beau McDonald did not touch the ball.

Then again Brisbane come up against Collingwood in 03 - only this time Fraser doesn't even have a pal to help him out. However with another year under his belt he holds his own this time.

Keating gets 8 touches, and Charman only 4. Fraser has 23 disposals and again kicks a goal.

Brisbane naturally win the hitouts, although Fraser gets 21 himself - only 6 less than Keating.

This theory on Brisbane basing their game around ruckmen is garbage. If anything, it was their only real weakness. Keating, McDonald then a young Charman were far from any good.

Keating, and Brisbane for that matter, were incredibly fortunate the clubs they faced in those GFs were led in the rucks by Alessio, Barnes, Fraser and McKee.

[Animal Enclosure]

I've very rarely ever used 'sources' in my posts but a very very reliable friend (with connections very high up in footy) spoke to the surgeon who operated on Gardiner's foot. The word was that Gardiner's foot problems are over (that just leaves his knees, etc!) & that he is working very nicely towards full fitness.

My slant on all this is that Gardiner is taking up one spot on the list & Lyon has made the call that he is a better option on the list than Brooks, Watts, etc. With the acquisition of King (& even McEvoy) to add to Rix, Kosi, etc means that Gardiner is not the saviour as some put it. If he can get fit & in form he will give us, potentially, a very handy 2nd ruckman.

Kosi can still play the 'Spider' role of around the ground, drifting forward as well as chipping in with some ruck duties as required.

Bottom line is that most of us are hoping that Gardiner can get fit and have some sort of an impact. Absolute bonus if he does.

[CURLY]

It is probably worth reflecting that Matthews at the Lions during their multi-premiership era had as a key part of his game plan ruckmen.

And that these ruckmen were in fact quite injury prone .....

Matthews cunning was ensuring that he had a good pool to cover this...and was not reliant on just the one ruckman.

I've always thought this was a myth.

Clark Keating never dominated anything - except a puny, scared and inexpereinced Josh Fraser in the 2002 GF.

Infact, had Josh Fraser had Voss, Black, Lappin, Akermanis, Power and co. at his feet, he would too be remembered as a premiership ruckman.

There was no cunning about it from Matthews. McDonald was a dud (who broke down in the first quarter of a GF), and Keating was a handy ruckman who could push forward effectively. Neither dominated anything.

In the 01 win, Keating touched the ball 5 times, and took 1 mark. McDonald touched the ball once.

Alessio had 10 disposals and only 1 less hitout than the Brisbane ruckmen.

In 02, Keating dominated the rucks clearly. But, he smashed Josh Fraser and McKee - not exactly cunning by Matthews, moreso good fortune.

Having said that, McKee had 16 touches and Fraser had 14. Fraser also kicked 3 goals and the two he missed could have made it 5.
Beau McDonald did not touch the ball.

Then again Brisbane come up against Collingwood in 03 - only this time Fraser doesn't even have a pal to help him out. However with another year under his belt he holds his own this time.

Keating gets 8 touches, and Charman only 4. Fraser has 23 disposals and again kicks a goal.

Brisbane naturally win the hitouts, although Fraser gets 21 himself - only 6 less than Keating.

This theory on Brisbane basing their game around ruckmen is garbage. If anything, it was their only real weakness. Keating, McDonald then a young Charman were far from any good.

Keating, and Brisbane for that matter, were incredibly fortunate the clubs they faced in those GFs were led in the rucks by Alessio, Barnes, Fraser and McKee.

Rodger a simple case were stats dont tell the story. Keating smashing the ball forward continually was far superior and clearly a standout. Yes Fraser kicked goals but only when he rested up forward. The image of Keating punching the ball 20 meters and Brisbanes onballers running forward have been burnt firmly in my memory.

[saintsRrising]

Rodger a simple case were stats dont tell the story. Keating smashing the ball forward continually was far superior and clearly a standout. Yes Fraser kicked goals but only when he rested up forward. The image of Keating punching the ball 20 meters and Brisbanes onballers running forward have been burnt firmly in my memory.

Exactly right Curly.

As I said Matthews was cunning and a very good coach.

Knowing that the tapwork of his available rucks was not up to scrath but that he had outstanding mids he came up with this tactic to make the most of his rucks ability....and the edge he had with his mids.

[saintsRrising]

It is probably worth reflecting that Matthews at the Lions during their multi-premiership era had as a key part of his game plan ruckmen.

I've always thought this was a myth.


This theory on Brisbane basing their game around ruckmen is garbage. If anything, it was their only real weakness. Keating, McDonald then a young Charman were far from any good.

Keating, and Brisbane for that matter, were incredibly fortunate the clubs they faced in those GFs were led in the rucks by Alessio, Barnes, Fraser and McKee.

Read my post again Rodger...or perhaps have Curly explain it to you as he seems to have an excellent grasp on things.

I said key part....and not based on ruckwork alone.

Matthews knew he had a great midfield....but that his ruckmen were average. So he devised strategies to make the most of his ruckmens limitations while increasing supply to his superb mids.


Not for Matthews to try and have his ruckmen deliver deft taps....as he knew this was not their skillset...instead he used his ruckmen to bash and crash the ball forward...and to intimidate oppostion players with their bodywork. His mids knew where the ball was going...roughly...and had the capabality to then win it.

A physical ruckman is a valuable thing......and there are no stats on bodywork...but watch the value that King will create in the ruck for us when he plays.



Winning a premiership is not just about GF day....you have to win enough games to postion yourself fora good finals run.

Having competent rucks helps this....having coach who knows how to make the most ut of his rucks, whatever their ability level, helps even more.

[riccardo]

For every player that has come back from long term injuries as good as when he left, there are a dozen who never recovered.

I hope Gardiner comes back and decemates the competition, but the more likley senario is he will play a couple of ordinary games and break down again.

At the moment, this very second, he is a waste of money, effort and time. I really he won't always be, but history suggests otherwise.

Is this attitude based or football based because 28 year old AA ruckmen arent dropping from trees and were hardly over our heads in ruckmen so hes well worth it.

Its foot based. As in, his are stuffed.

It wouldn't matter if he was an AA ruckman or Miss flowering America, if he can't walk, he is useless.

Why is that so hard to comprehend?

[riccardo]

I hope Gardiner comes back and decemates the competition, but the more likley senario is he will play a couple of ordinary games and break down again..

based on what>?

At the moment, this very second, he is a waste of money, effort and time. I really he won't always be, but history suggests otherwise.

examples?

Answer A: the last year and a half.

Answer 2: Nathan Brown for one. John Coleman for another. Aaron Hammil as well.

[CURLY]

Not forgetting the work King does across CHB his positioning is excellent and gives you that big body down back. Not only does he put himself in a dangerous spot but he also takes a contested mark something we have lacked.

[CURLY]

I hope Gardiner comes back and decemates the competition, but the more likley senario is he will play a couple of ordinary games and break down again..

based on what>?

At the moment, this very second, he is a waste of money, effort and time. I really he won't always be, but history suggests otherwise.

examples?

Answer A: the last year and a half.

Answer 2: Nathan Brown for one. John Coleman for another. Aaron Hammil as well.

On your theory Hird Voss and even Harvs would of been thrown out years ago! All suffered 12month plus injuries at some stage in there careers. Please dont ever become a selector.

[riccardo]

I hope Gardiner comes back and decemates the competition, but the more likley senario is he will play a couple of ordinary games and break down again..

based on what>?

At the moment, this very second, he is a waste of money, effort and time. I really he won't always be, but history suggests otherwise.

examples?

Answer A: the last year and a half.

Answer 2: Nathan Brown for one. John Coleman for another. Aaron Hammil as well.

On your theory Hird Voss and even Harvs would of been thrown out years ago! All suffered 12month plus injuries at some stage in there careers. Please dont ever become a selector.

You doubt my examples? Look, the players you mentioned were able to come back from injuries and resume playing at a level close to thier original level. The three I've mentioned couldn't, and neither can Gardiner. How many times did he break down last year at training? How many times did he reinjure himself shortly after he was supposed to be on the way to full fitness? There is giving a guy a chance, then there is flogging a dead horse.

I'll stay away from selecting if you promise never to enter the medical profession. Your "she''l be right" attitude would get someone killed.

[B W and R all over]

In fairness, Nathan Brown still may come good and is an important part of Richmond's side, John Coleman's problems would have been fixed with modern day medicine and Aaron Hamill, well I'll give you that one.

[CURLY]

All of our professional football department which includes coaches and medical staff beleive he can resume playing top footy. According to there medical tests his feet have recovered.

But you say they are stuffed maybe you should let them know and have him retired immediatly as you looking from afar know something that they dont. Sorry Riccardo but I know who I put my faith in.

[saintsRrising]

In fairness, Nathan Brown still may come good and is an important part of Richmond's side, John Coleman's problems would have been fixed with modern day medicine and Aaron Hamill, well I'll give you that one.

I think the key is whether the Docs and conditionaing staff can get them medically fit again...back to a level near where they were.


As you say with Coleman...today he would have just hada year off most likely....as did Banger.

For Hamill's bone on bone injury they do not currently havea satisfactory treatment... they can off course replace his knee joints with artificial ones (and ultimately I have been told he will have to have this done) but this would not allow him to play asa footballer.

Brown I imagine will recover...

[CURLY]

Riccardo can you also contact the clubs of the following players and have them retired immediatly.......

Daniel Bradshaw
Mark Cohglan
Nigel Lappin

[rodgerfox]

Rodger a simple case were stats dont tell the story. Keating smashing the ball forward continually was far superior and clearly a standout. Yes Fraser kicked goals but only when he rested up forward. The image of Keating punching the ball 20 meters and Brisbanes onballers running forward have been burnt firmly in my memory.

Exactly right Curly.

As I said Matthews was cunning and a very good coach.

Knowing that the tapwork of his available rucks was not up to scrath but that he had outstanding mids he came up with this tactic to make the most of his rucks ability....and the edge he had with his mids.

Only 1 of his rucks had this ability though. McDonald made a name for himself as a tap ruckman, so did Charman.

[CURLY]

Rodger a simple case were stats dont tell the story. Keating smashing the ball forward continually was far superior and clearly a standout. Yes Fraser kicked goals but only when he rested up forward. The image of Keating punching the ball 20 meters and Brisbanes onballers running forward have been burnt firmly in my memory.

Exactly right Curly.

As I said Matthews was cunning and a very good coach.

Knowing that the tapwork of his available rucks was not up to scrath but that he had outstanding mids he came up with this tactic to make the most of his rucks ability....and the edge he had with his mids.

Only 1 of his rucks had this ability though. McDonald made a name for himself as a tap ruckman, so did Charman.

Youd hardly call Charman a tap ruckmen, very aggresive at the man and follows the Mathews game plan of smashing the ball forward at all costs.

[st.byron]

All of our professional football department which includes coaches and medical staff beleive he can resume playing top footy. According to there medical tests his feet have recovered.

But you say they are stuffed maybe you should let them know and have him retired immediatly as you looking from afar know something that they dont. Sorry Riccardo but I know who I put my faith in.

Curly, it's a fair call that what we hear from the medical staff at St.Kilda suggests that Gardiner is on track to regaining full fitness following a structured and specialised program devised for him. No quibbles about that. No-one would have a better knowledge of what should happen with Gardiner's rehab than the club.
Having said that, he has a history of breaking down in match conditions and I'm extremely sceptical, IMO with good reason, that we'll get any value out of him. If we do, bonus, if we don't, it'll be pretty much as expected as far as I'm concerned.

[rodgerfox]

Rodger a simple case were stats dont tell the story. Keating smashing the ball forward continually was far superior and clearly a standout. Yes Fraser kicked goals but only when he rested up forward. The image of Keating punching the ball 20 meters and Brisbanes onballers running forward have been burnt firmly in my memory.

Exactly right Curly.

As I said Matthews was cunning and a very good coach.

Knowing that the tapwork of his available rucks was not up to scrath but that he had outstanding mids he came up with this tactic to make the most of his rucks ability....and the edge he had with his mids.

Only 1 of his rucks had this ability though. McDonald made a name for himself as a tap ruckman, so did Charman.

Youd hardly call Charman a tap ruckmen, very aggresive at the man and follows the Mathews game plan of smashing the ball forward at all costs.

I disagree with that entirely.

And in addition, he only played in 1 of their winning GFs.

So the cunning of Matthews to have his arsenal of 'crash and bash' ruckmen constantly smashing the ball forward, in reality was Clark Keating doing it against Josh Fraser.

Interestingly aswell, in the game where Keating totally dominated Fraser in this regard, Brisbane only fell over the line and a Collingwood midfielder won the Norm Smith.

[Dis Believer]

Just a point worth noting Rodge. I didn't say our ruck division was elite, I said it was stronger than it has been for some years.

If you don't think that King, Gardiner, Rix, Kosi, McEvoy & VanRheenan (R) is stronger than Ackland, Rix, Kosi, Brooks & Blake then I think your being mischeivous with the facts to support your point of view.

I said it was stronger. It has been exceptionally weak for some years, it would be hard NOT to improve. Ergo my statement was correct........

[saintsRrising]

So the cunning of Matthews to have his arsenal of 'crash and bash' ruckmen constantly smashing the ball forward, in reality was Clark Keating doing it against Josh Fraser.

I must have missed that year where the Lions had to play against Josh Fraser each and every week..


When did this GroundHog day of a season occur???

My comments were clearly made over a THREE YEAR period where a variety of ruckmen were used...with the stats. You by contrast seem fixated on only one match for some reason. The Lions had DEPTH in their ruck stocks.


As also pointed out above by me.....Keating has been un-available for large chunks of games....which takes us back to the earlier claim that King and M Gardiner would be no good as they would not play every game.

The Lions fllet of injury prone rucks is a clear example that you can have an effective ruck division without each and every one of them having to play every game.