Do we have a kicking coach?

markinUSA · Post: # 433510Post **markinUSA** » Mon 13 Aug 2007 11:46am

Hi

The game was only shown on Setanta this morning my time. So although I had listened to it on the radio, and read all the posts, I have only started to watch it on TV - I've got through the first quarter and a half so far... watching it carefully, so I try to notice everything.

Well, I ask this NOT to criticize anyone, but actually to make a constructive suggestion. I've seen the three misses at goal that Xavier Clarke made in the first, say 35 minutes of the game, and my immediate thoughts were: there is a technical flaw in his kicking style.

I never used to pay much attention to the actual technicalities of kicking - where people hold the ball in their hands, how they drop it to their boot, and so on until one day many years ago when I saw Tony Lockett playing for the Saints really carefully place his fingers on a certain place in the ball, before he went back for his shot at goal, and then really deliberately stabilize them there while he was kicking ... accurately. And I started to notice this aspect of kicking a lot more after that.

It's not as simple as it seems, kicking, though most players do it automatically after years of practice.

Well, I was watching Xavier Clarke's kicking style, and one thing umped out at me: the position of his fingers when he holds the ball. He actually holds the ball very high - his fingers don't touch the midline place on the ball. Now that means less control over the ball as you place it to your boot. His actual kicking action seems fine - his follow through, for instance. But at the key point - the second you place the ball to your foot - there is a (minor) degree of unpredictability produced by the positioning of his hands.

Now, I am not saying he drops the ball onto his boot or anything like that. What I am saying is that because his hands are so high on the ball, he has slightly less directional control over the ball.

If we have a kicking coach (other posters have in the past said that people from the club read this forum), could someone who could make a difference look at this?

I am not - NOT - trying to jump on an anti-Xavier bandwagon. If you read through all my posts, I never bag any of our players. The only even slightly critical comments I make are (trying to be) constructive.

I really believe this is a minor thing, and it could be easily changed - it probably has just slipped into his game accidentally, but a couple of days walking around with your hands on the midline of a football - the seams, were the ball is sewed together - could change a little bad habit like this.

If anyone else has time, please look at a video of his kicking style yourself. I hope I've given a good enough description of what I mean here - it's hard when you are using words, and not visual images. But what I am saying is that if you just hold the top of the ball, you don't have as much control over the drop as you do if your hands are a little lower - on the footy's seams. And that makes a difference, given the pace at which you kick a football - a little defect in kicking style like that can make a big difference in results.

Cheers
Mark

fonz_#15 · Post: # 433516Post **fonz_#15** » Mon 13 Aug 2007 11:52am

I hear what your saying here Mark. I think it is a habbit that X has, and een if the club were to change it, it will take time due to the fact that he has probably used that kicking style for the better part of 15 years since playing a s a kid.

As for a kicking coach, i'm not sure if we have somebody who is at the club just for kicking technique etc. maybe somebody can help me out there.

supersaints · Mon 13 Aug 2007 1:01pm

Maybe its Jason Daniels !!!!!

TimeToShineFellas · Mon 13 Aug 2007 1:11pm

I don't think we have a kicking coach........

But we have plenty of people on here doing some lovely kicking of their own!

Otiman · Post: # 433610Post **Otiman** » Mon 13 Aug 2007 1:42pm

TimeToShineFellas wrote:But we have plenty of people on here doing some lovely kicking of their own!

Only while they're down!

Perhaps we need a kicking coach to help us kick when they're up.

markinUSA · Post: # 433629Post **markinUSA** » Mon 13 Aug 2007 2:00pm

I was being serious - I do think little change this can make a difference.

I suggest you have a try yourself - I did, after I thought about it. I went outside and kicked the ball - one way, mirroring the way he holds the ball high; and another, a little lower on the ball. It really makes a difference to the control you have!

I mean it - try it yourself. It's much harder to kick accurately with your fingers higher on the ball. We are only talking say 2 centimetres - but it does make a difference.

And, unlike Fonz, I don't think this is such a major change that it would be impossible to re-learn. Its a minor change - particularly with set shots, you'd just practice for a while, and then you'd apply it.

saintsRrising · Thu 10 Jan 2008 4:58pm

Well with a ruck coah now appointed...along with a swag of othe appoinments I wonder if someone will now be appointed as a specilaist here....or whether it will just be left to obe oif the assistant or development coaches???

Oh When the Saints · Thu 10 Jan 2008 6:08pm

Were any of our assistants particularly skillful players?

John Barker was a pretty decent kick.

plugger66 · Post: # 508648Post **plugger66** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 6:21pm

Pretty much to late to learn to kick by the time you reach the AFL.

saintspremiers · Thu 10 Jan 2008 7:12pm

plugger66 wrote:Pretty much to late to learn to kick by the time you reach the AFL.

Ok, well if your theory holds then it points to an issue with our recruitment re assessing a players kicking ability.

Agree with the OP, we have historically had way too many sub-standard players re kicking ability.

esaint66 · Post: # 508682Post **esaint66** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 7:24pm

Pretty much to late to learn to kick by the time you reach the AFL.

i dunno about that what about stewie loewe got off season coaching from peter hudson and what did that do for him???
the wrodl of good he was actually confident in front of goal instead of before where he faked injuries to get out of it

Eastern · Post: # 508690Post **Eastern** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 7:31pm

I thought that someone from this forum (can't remember who) pretended to be a kicking coach at a training session before Christmas by kicking the ball back to the guys who were having goal kicking practice

!!

Zippy · Post: # 508705Post **Zippy** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 7:54pm

plugger66 wrote:Pretty much to late to learn to kick by the time you reach the AFL.

I know a guy changing his singing technique. In his late 60's, after five decades doing it differently.

You can retrain skills if you have to, it just takes a lot of work to learn new habits.

plugger66 · Post: # 508758Post **plugger66** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:02pm

saint edward wrote:
Pretty much to late to learn to kick by the time you reach the AFL.

i dunno about that what about stewie loewe got off season coaching from peter hudson and what did that do for him???
the wrodl of good he was actually confident in front of goal instead of before where he faked injuries to get out of it

I actually think you can improve kicking for goal because alot of it is not on the run when there is real pressure on you. Thats when it falls down IMO.

saintsRrising · Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:07pm

plugger66 wrote:Pretty much to late to learn to kick by the time you reach the AFL.

Why are there so many Irishmen being recruited of late then??

plugger66 · Post: # 508766Post **plugger66** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:09pm

saintsRrising wrote:
plugger66 wrote:Pretty much to late to learn to kick by the time you reach the AFL.
Why are there so many Irishmen being recruited of late then??

Pretty obvious really. They start from scrath and as such have no bad habits that have been learned for 10 years.

saintsRrising · Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:12pm

They have lots of bad habits......and have been kicking the wrong shape ball for a start.

The key is whether they have talent....and then the will and application to learn and train....anda club willing to puta lot of time into them.

plugger66 · Post: # 508769Post **plugger66** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:14pm

saintsRrising wrote:They have lots of bad habits......and have been kicking the wrong shape ball for a start.

The key is whether they have talent....and then the will and application to learn and train....anda club willing to puta lot of time into them.

They have no bad habits on how you hold a oval shaped ball or how you drop it.

saintsRrising · Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:16pm

Different kicking techniques can be taught......

Look at the Australians taking up Grid Iron in the NFL..

They are familiar with Aussie rules style but have to learn new styles and techniques...including the importance of hang time.

Yes they were good kicks already...but each of them when they started with the Grid Iron ball were poor at it.....and had to learn over...at a late age.

saintsRrising · Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:19pm

There is an ex Hawks ruckman (Byrne??????) who is now a specialist kicking coach.

The Kiwi all Blacks have used him to improve the kicking ability of their players.

esaint66 · Post: # 508773Post **esaint66** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:21pm

saintsRrising wrote:The key is whether they have talent....and then the will and application to learn and train....anda club willing to puta lot of time into them.

yes exactly my thoughts if you were to go overseas for a job you wouldnt put a half arsed effort in.

plugger66 · Post: # 508775Post **plugger66** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:21pm

saintsRrising wrote:Different kicking techniques can be taught......

Look at the Australians taking up Grid Iron in the NFL..

They are familiar with Aussie rules style but have to learn new styles and techniques...including the importance of hang time.

Yes they were good kicks already...but each of them when they started with the Grid Iron ball were poor at it.....and had to learn over...at a late age.

Thats right. It is a new ball and a different style. Players drafted to the AFL are using the same ball and have the same style. It is very hard to change because you have done it the same way all your life.

esaint66 · Post: # 508778Post **esaint66** » Thu 10 Jan 2008 10:27pm

saintsRrising wrote:There is an ex Hawks ruckman (Byrne??????) who is now a specialist kicking coach.

The Kiwi all Blacks have used him to improve the kicking ability of their players.

yeh i read an article about that in rugby news also the wallabies had joey johns for a bit

Enrico_Misso · Sat 12 Jan 2008 11:28pm

Eric Cantona ?

saintsRrising · Sat 12 Jan 2008 11:54pm

plugger66 wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:Different kicking techniques can be taught......

Look at the Australians taking up Grid Iron in the NFL..

They are familiar with Aussie rules style but have to learn new styles and techniques...including the importance of hang time.

Yes they were good kicks already...but each of them when they started with the Grid Iron ball were poor at it.....and had to learn over...at a late age.
Thats right. It is a new ball and a different style. Players drafted to the AFL are using the same ball and have the same style. It is very hard to change because you have done it the same way all your life.

Yes...I did not say it was not difficult..

If it was easy to have elite skills....we would all be AFL players...

AFL players are now coming from rugby (and not not just those who played both codes) and soccer backgrounds as well as from gaelic football.

Look at athletes....many gifted juniors who have been running for years have to relearn how to run when they come under the wing of elite coaches.

This is why we need development coaches.