ST kilda Under achievers

[1eyedNever]

We woukd have to be the most under achieving side in the AFL in the last 4 years
Need to take the next step NOW

N A = Not assesable
U A = Under Achiever

#36 Jarryd Allen = N A
#20 David Armitage = N A
#43 Jayden Attard (r) = N A
#10 Steven Baker = U A
#14 Luke Ball (C) = N A
#22 Shane Birss = U A
#27 Jason Blake = U A
#16 Raphael Clarke = U A PLUS PLUS
#3 Xavier Clarke = U A PLUS PLUS
#?? Eljay Connors = N A
#26 Nick Dal Santo = Achiever but needs MORE
#?? Sean Dempster = N A
#40 Robert Eddy (r) = N A
#17 Aaron Fiora = U A PLUS PLUS
#21 Matthew Ferguson = U A
#6 Leigh Fisher = U A
#25 Samuel Fisher = ACHIEVER PLUS
#?? Charlie Gardiner = N A
#15 Michael Gardiner = U A
#42 Jarryn Geary = U A
#9 Fraser Gehrig = U A
#19 Sam Gilbert = ACHIEVER PLUS
#18 Brendon Goddard = Achiever
#1 Jason Gram = U A
#33 James Gwilt = U A JOKE
#35 Robert Harvey = ACHIEVER OF THE HIGHEST
#7 Lenny Hayes (C) = ACHIEVER

#30 Brad Howard = Not Assesed
#8 Max Hudghton = Achiever
#38 Clinton Jones = N A
#?? Steven King - NA
#23 Justin Koschitzke = U A
#31 Matt Maguire = N A
#?? Ben McEvoy = N A
#44 Stephen Milne = U A PLUS
#11 Leigh Montagna = U A IMPROVING
#12 Nick Riewoldt (C) = ACHIEVER PLUS
#29 Michael Rix = U A
#?? Adam Schneider =N A
#?? Jack Stevens = N A
#39 Luke van Rheenen (r) = N A

[Saints Premiers 2008]

with your analysis i suppose us making two prelims and another finals series with such an under achieving list

just because players like raph and x showed a little bit when they first debuted doesnt mean they are now under-achievers either....they wouldnt have been tagged or kept in check much like gwilt in the prelim final against adelaide in 05

we have the gun players...now we just need a solid group of b grades and i hope someone like x can just play consistantly

not all high draft picks are amazingly awesomely talented guns

[saint66au]

Sheesh you mark hard..

Gram..Top 3 B/F

Bakes..Joint B/F winner and the comps leading tagger by a mile

Gehrig. Our leading goalkicker 3 years straight and a Coleman Medal

[TimeToShineFellas]

Bakes..Joint B/F winner and the comps leading tagger by a mile

I reckon Brady Rawlings has gone past him................

[cwrcyn]

Blake - Achiever. Has made the most of the talent he possesses

Baker - High achiever. Other clubs would love to have him

Michael Rix - Achiever. Limited talent, yet has played AFL because of his hard work

Gram - Achiever. Never got a look in at Brisbane, but has blossomed into one of the most damaging rebound players in the competition. played most of 2007 with a crook hip.

Leigh Fisher - Achiever. Pick 56 in the draft, terrible hamstring injuries, yet has been a solid contributor.

[milney044]

i dont agree with most of your under achievers 1eyed.

in no way is frase an underachiever, hes only been a coleman medalist with 100+, our leading goal kicker more than once, very serviceable player.
gram how do you work that out? he's one of our most improved and promising players.

bakes - gives his all each week, hes not actually the most skillful player, hes achieved way more than many others would believe him capable of.

milne hes been our leading goal kicker, represented australia, kicked 50, 45 and 60 goals in a season, you might argue he hasnt performed as well recently but hes still finished 3rd highest in our goal tally.

Birss? hes not an A grade player, he's not meant to star each week. for what hes worth he's pretty serviceable. most wouldnt expect him to make the list with his ability so i think hes done ok for himself.

Raph and X i do agree with you but even they've suffered from injury which really hasn't helped.

eh end of rant, thanks for that actually i was clearly in need of footy discussion

[LTN16]

#29 Michael Rix = U A

Its a bit harsh to say Rix is an Under Achiever.

We got him as a 26yr old from the VFL with pick 49 and he played about 11 or so games in his first year and nearly every game this year for us. It is always risky drafting a mature age player but this selection has been worth while. Rix is definitely not an Under Achiever.

[linz]

Ignoring the individual marks however & looking at the side as a whole; I believe we have under-achieved. I still believe we've got one of the best lists going around. If we get a better run with injuries than the Cats next year: LOOK OUT !!

but then i'm biased

[evertonfc]

Liking the honest marking.

On Gehrig, he's definitely contributed a lot to our club, but I seriously question if he's even the best full-forward at the club when Koschitzke is available.

Kosi surely has to be #1; can you imagine Gehrig getting more than three kicks against Darren Glass or Matthew Scarlett this year?

[bigcarl]

i'd class an under-achiever as someone who (for whatever reason, be it injury, attitude or plain bad luck) hasn't yet got the best out of his natural ability.

under-achievers:
raph, x, kosi, goose, ball, dal.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

i'd class an under-achiever as someone who (for whatever reason, be it injury, attitude or plain bad luck) hasn't yet got the best out of his natural ability.

under-achievers:
raph, x, kosi, goose, ball, dal.

they are all young though

heck up until last year garry ablett was considered a prodigious small forward who had a run in the middle occassionally....

now......

[bigcarl]

i'd class an under-achiever as someone who (for whatever reason, be it injury, attitude or plain bad luck) hasn't yet got the best out of his natural ability.

under-achievers:
raph, x, kosi, goose, ball, dal.

they are all young though

heck up until last year garry ablett was considered a prodigious small forward who had a run in the middle occassionally....

now......

was no sledge on any of them. they're all very talented and i wouldn't have even put them in there if i didn't rate them very highly indeed.

just that as of now they haven't reached their full potential. let's hope 2008 is the year when all really come of age

[Huzzad]

#10 Steven Baker = U A

#17 Aaron Fiora = U A PLUS PLUS

#6 Leigh Fisher = U A
#15 Michael Gardiner = U A

#1 Jason Gram = U A

#11 Leigh Montagna = U A IMPROVING
#29 Michael Rix = U A

Hard marks, some I agree with. The above ones I do not.

Baker, already mentioned above. Rediculous mark.

Fiora, had a stellar season. Watched all of his games this year, most of them twice. Played every game this season, kicked a fair few goals and was devestatining with run out of the midfield into the forward line. People should watch him more closely, he is a very valuable player, contract also extended for another 2 years. 2 or 3 mark of the year nominations. Averaged just over 15 possesions a game for the year. To put this in perspective, Robbie Harvey averaged 17, Roo 18, Luke Ball 19 and Steven Baker with 12. I'll agree he has been bad with consistancy in the past but definatly don't think that was a bigger problem as people make out in 2007. I think he did a great job off the wing. One of few players to play all 22 of our matches this year.

Leigh Fisher was fantastic. Not the best in the air but brilliant at ground level, accurate kick, committed and rarely made mistakes. Brave player and in our best 6 defenders for sure.

Michael Gardiner. Well, how can you give Clinton Jones a N/A considering he played around 6 more games than gardener, who played zilch? I think we should rate players for their onfield performance, not on their injuries. At least let them take to the field for goodness sake. You rate Brendan Goddard as an achiever when he only played 7 games last season.

If we are going to attack players for concistancy, it is a bit hypocritical to judge them with biased criteria and favouritsim.

Jason Gram....well I just have to ask WTF. Look at his placing the the BF. His impressive goals for the season. His work all around the ground. His work off half back. I agree his season wasn't as classy as 06, but he does not deserve a UA. Averaged 18 possies a match, kicked 9 and only missed 2 matches.

Leigh Montagna....well not sure which Leigh Montagna you were watching, the one who played for the saints in 2007 averaged 23 possessions a match, missed only game and kicked 10 goals. Next best was Lenny with 22 and Nick Dal Santo with 21 possies a game and Sam Fisher with 20.
Bit hard on ol Leigh I think.

As for Rixy, I have made my comments a number of times and really don't care to repeat myself. I agree, could be better, but I think alot of people use him as a pin cushion (along with Fiora, Jones, etc) when they decide to have a rant. Not to say any of the previously mentioned players are at their peak, but they definatly don't deserve the criticism that has been dished out, given their performances.

Other than that I thought you were spot on.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

joey cannot be an under-achiever in my opinion...to me he never really impressed at all up until this season

so to me another quality midfielder seemingly plucked from nowhere is a bonus

[mizuno]

Long time lurker here...
But how can Gilbert be an Achiever Plus, what has he done?

M Gardiner should be NA, you cant achieve if you don't get out on the park.

Id put Milney in the same class as Blake. He does the best with what hes got.

Im pretty sure Saints management got rid of all the under achievers ( ala Brookes, Watts) in this years Fire Sale. Everyone else is playing their role or NA.

[Huzzad]

Long time lurker here...
But how can Gilbert be an Achiever Plus, what has he done?

Perhaps you missed the 18 games he played this year...

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Long time lurker here...
But how can Gilbert be an Achiever Plus, what has he done?

Perhaps you missed the 18 games he played this year...

wow...18 games

he has a whole career ahead of him...anything could happen

[Huzzad]

Long time lurker here...
But how can Gilbert be an Achiever Plus, what has he done?

Perhaps you missed the 18 games he played this year...

wow...18 games

he has a whole career ahead of him...anything could happen

Yep, and if he keeps going like he did this year he will be a star, if he isn't one already. Will have alot of pressure on going into this year to follow up, but compared to the pressure at the start of 07, I think he will handle it well and be as good as he was this year, if not better.

[mizuno]

Saints Premiers 2008 wrote:
Huzzad wrote:
mizuno wrote:
Long time lurker here...
But how can Gilbert be an Achiever Plus, what has he done?



Perhaps you missed the 18 games he played this year...


wow...18 games

he has a whole career ahead of him...anything could happen


Yep, and if he keeps going like he did this year he will be a star, if he isn't one already. Will have alot of pressure on going into this year to follow up, but compared to the pressure at the start of 07, I think he will handle it well and be as good as he was this year, if not better.

The key word is IF, if we went by your theory Kosi would have been an Achiever Plus Plus after his first year and Selwood from Geelong is a hall of famer.

[plugger66]

Saints Premiers 2008 wrote:
Huzzad wrote:
mizuno wrote:
Long time lurker here...
But how can Gilbert be an Achiever Plus, what has he done?



Perhaps you missed the 18 games he played this year...


wow...18 games

he has a whole career ahead of him...anything could happen


Yep, and if he keeps going like he did this year he will be a star, if he isn't one already. Will have alot of pressure on going into this year to follow up, but compared to the pressure at the start of 07, I think he will handle it well and be as good as he was this year, if not better.

The key word is IF, if we went by your theory Kosi would have been an Achiever Plus Plus after his first year and Selwood from Geelong is a hall of famer.

I must agree with this. Sam is a good player but that is all he is. He may be a star but lets face it if he was at aniother club we would all rate him as average. He didnt even get a vote in the rising star. What it does show is that supporters have been staved of young recruits and because of this we jump on the first person who shows some real promise.

[Huzzad]

Saints Premiers 2008 wrote:
Huzzad wrote:
mizuno wrote:
Long time lurker here...
But how can Gilbert be an Achiever Plus, what has he done?



Perhaps you missed the 18 games he played this year...


wow...18 games

he has a whole career ahead of him...anything could happen


Yep, and if he keeps going like he did this year he will be a star, if he isn't one already. Will have alot of pressure on going into this year to follow up, but compared to the pressure at the start of 07, I think he will handle it well and be as good as he was this year, if not better.

The key word is IF, if we went by your theory Kosi would have been an Achiever Plus Plus after his first year and Selwood from Geelong is a hall of famer.

I must agree with this. Sam is a good player but that is all he is. He may be a star but lets face it if he was at aniother club we would all rate him as average. He didnt even get a vote in the rising star. What it does show is that supporters have been staved of young recruits and because of this we jump on the first person who shows some real promise.

I disagree. Re-watching a few of his games, he played very well. Better than a couple of our senior members. I am not saying we should rate him as high as roo or lenny or whatever, but he had a fantastic 07, was classy, tackled well, kicked goals and kept his opponent accountable. I am just calling for credit where it is due.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

the problem with this is what do you use as a criteria of a player achiving ?
i men most would agree blakes skills are not the best and his body shape it too big to be a pacey mid and too small to be a lumbering big but with the tools hes got he over achieves each week by getting the most out of himself and getting selected

also with the querry on dal could it be more that he so highly over achived in the early part of his carreer that now we expect too much from him than what he can give ??

[Huzzad]

the problem with this is what do you use as a criteria of a player achiving ?
i men most would agree blakes skills are not the best and his body shape it too big to be a pacey mid and too small to be a lumbering big but with the tools hes got he over achieves each week by getting the most out of himself and getting selected

also with the querry on dal could it be more that he so highly over achived in the early part of his carreer that now we expect too much from him than what he can give ??

Well it is quite obvious that people rate players according to their own idiosyncratic criteria. For example people rate X and Ralph very highly, but in my books they had a shocking season, though X opened the season well, I believed he was very inconsistant overall and Raph just does not have the confidence or the footy smarts to play the game. other people like to bag Rix and Fiora, who have played more games and got more possessions than some of the players they praise in their signatures/avatars etc.

All I am saying is that when you are a forum nerd, your oppinion is going to vary from person to person. If people want to ask how I grade players, feel free to ask, but unless people do that we are going to have very mixed oppinions between people who have played the game in some form or become an armchair coach with a big mouth.

[mizuno]

Well it is quite obvious that people rate players according to their own idiosyncratic criteria. For example people rate X and Ralph very highly, but in my books they had a shocking season, though X opened the season well, I believed he was very inconsistant overall and Raph just does not have the confidence or the footy smarts to play the game. other people like to bag Rix and Fiora, who have played more games and got more possessions than some of the players they praise in their signatures/avatars etc.

All I am saying is that when you are a forum nerd, your oppinion is going to vary from person to person. If people want to ask how I grade players, feel free to ask, but unless people do that we are going to have very mixed oppinions between people who have played the game in some form or become an armchair coach with a big mouth.

Yes but in the context of this thread/topic its looking at the broader picture. Achieving to their touted potential. When people say they rate X and Raph highly i think they are refering to the potential they possess, we've seen X do some devastating runs- probably worth alot more than a Rix handball to someone because he cant kick.

[peter lockwood]

I think honestly that the whole team has underachieved.What would you rather a team of champions or a champion team?