Man on a mission: Ross Lyon on our pre-season

[rodgerfox]

Lets get this right.....in 2007 Goose was available (I mustve been elsewhere..),Goddard good to go?, Lenny up and about for the whole year....Ball overcame OP?, Thompson at his peak?, Max untroubled in 2007 by injury? and Brett Voss (now so good hes gawn) was available fit and firing in 07?

Are you this stupid in real life?

Sigh.

Were they not on the list? Were all those players not available on the list at season's start?

Oh dear.

Oh ...well thank god for that cream of the crop coming through......... what were we thinking..we should smashed the Cats in 07 with that fire power back up..

Were they not on the list? Were they not available at season's start?

Yes.....the core was there...starting to fester a little though....but it looks great...on paper....where you do your best work Didg...

BJ, Ball, Goose knackered in 07...so 2 good pre seasons were handy... .....but lets not let facts get in the way.......and now to our declining stars not available in 07 - No Powell, Peckett, Thompson struggling for a game/injury, Brett Voss fading into the sunset, Gehrig unsure if he was in love or wanting to play, A Hamill retired, [/quote]

I seriously don't know why I'm bothering to repsond to this stupidity.

Goose was knackered in 05, and 06 too. Lenny was knackered in 06. Powell and Peckett retired for a reason. 06 was not a good year for them, In 05 it was often questioned how long Frankie would keep going for.
Hamill was knackered in 05 and 06 too. Ball has been knackered since half way through 05.

07 was THE worst year for St Kilda injuries but ...it must be just the inferior performance of the coach cause the 04 and 07 lists were identical...

Sigh.


The lists, and the available starting 22 at the start of the season, is no different to what was available in 05. I never said they were identical. In theory with the cutting off of dead wood and the extra development into the kids of 05 and 06, our list should be better.

We had injuries on 07 no doubt. Terrible ones. Arguably worse than 06 - but not worse than 05.

However in 05 and 06, we were a top 4 side.

In 07 we were a bottom 4 side for most of the year.

I never said it was the just because of the inferior performance of the coach. I've just said that the coach has done nothing to suggest we're going forwards. All I've seen is us go from a top 4 side with terrible injuries, to a team that finished 9th with terrible injuries.

[Teflon]

Lets get this right.....in 2007 Goose was available (I mustve been elsewhere..),Goddard good to go?, Lenny up and about for the whole year....Ball overcame OP?, Thompson at his peak?, Max untroubled in 2007 by injury? and Brett Voss (now so good hes gawn) was available fit and firing in 07?

Are you this stupid in real life?

Sigh.

Were they not on the list? Were all those players not available on the list at season's start?

If you did less *sighing* and focussed more on actually making a lucid point instead of that scrambled dribble Im sure you could be a good student.

So all up your whole point is - the lists on paper that were availabe from the start of 05 season are somehow comparable to 07 yet we didnt get top 4 in 07 so its just the coach who hasnt done enough to prove himself to you?

Thats brilliant Sherlock.......that really gives a good indication when comparing lists and the changes in those lists both from a personal perspective and a performance perspective over 2 yrs....where would this site be without your footballing genius.

Whats next - breath air live longer?

*sigh*

[bigcarl]

If we can get the fundamentals spot on, the game-plan almost pales in significance.

no argument that fundamentals are vital and once you are excecuting them correctly everything comes a lot easier. no doubt either that you need luck with injuries.

but let's not underestimate the importance of structure (having the right people in the right places) and gameplan.

imo it is pretty simple. move the ball as quickly and as surely as possible to a strong-marking, aerially dominant forward line containing kosi, riewoldt and fraser.

have a couple of quick goalsneaks like milne and schneider nearby to mop up.

set up a goal-kicking centreline ... gram, dal santo and bj are all capable of kicking goals from outside 50 or finding a forward with a good pass. make the best use of them.

kosi to chf or ff is the key, imo. his ability to take contested marks just takes so much pressure off riewoldt and fraser.

our ability to convert opportunities to goals is what let us down badly last year. imo we were so busy being "accountable" that blokes forgot to get the pill and were too scared to take any risks for fear of making a mistake.

i take RL's point about finding a balance between defence and attack. my advice is to let defenders be defenders and let forwards be forwards. don't try to turn players into something they are not

a forward's role should be to get the pill and kick a goal, not to be "accountable". Let the opposition worry about our guys rather than the reverse.

but i'm starting to ramble on my pet topic, a goal-kicking forward line.

here is the link: http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... 147#504147

[Teflon]

If we can get the fundamentals spot on, the game-plan almost pales in significance.

no argument that fundamentals are vital and once you are excecuting them correctly everything comes a lot easier. no doubt either that you need luck with injuries.

but let's not underestimate the importance of structure (having the right people in the right places) and gameplan.

imo it is pretty simple. move the ball as quickly and as surely as possible to a strong-marking, aerially dominant forward line containing kosi, riewoldt and fraser.

have a couple of quick goalsneaks like milne and schneider nearby to mop up.

set up a goal-kicking centreline ... gram, dal santo and bj are all capable of kicking goals from outside 50 or finding a forward with a good pass. make the best use of them.

kosi to chf or ff is the key, imo. his ability to take contested marks just takes so much pressure off riewoldt and fraser.

our ability to convert opportunities to goals is what let us down badly last year. imo we were so busy being "accountable" that blokes forgot to get the pill and were too scared to take any risks for fear of making a mistake.

i take RL's point about finding a balance between defence and attack. my advice is to let defenders be defenders and let forwards be forwards. don't try to turn players into something they are not

a forward's role should be to get the pill and kick a goal, not to be "accountable". Let the opposition worry about our guys rather than the reverse.

but i'm starting to ramble on my pet topic, a goal-kicking forward line.

here is the link: http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... 147#504147

Sorry Carl - and Im not having a go - but re-read your entire post....its all about fwd lines and goals (very important - no arguments there) BUT its no coincidence that over the past many years the Premiership side has often been the side with the best defence and on many occasions an attacking one. Re watch the GF and watch how many time Scarlett streamed fwd for the Cats.....and your suggestion above is "let fwds be fwd" so I assume in your gameplan he would become someone elses responsibility when he went forward or wosre a loose man in their fwd half??......nup.

The game is simply not played with everyone staying in their positions anymore.and that includes fwds...how many big lumbering Tony Locketts are goal square bound nowadays..........(a weakness of GTrain for mine.....and why he can also become a liability) - its largely why wingman have been relegated to a thing of the past. Yes the "kick it long, strong to a tall fwd line fast" is very appealing - it also can be found out (as we have experienced many times) with a decent rebounding defence where many goals in the modern game are scored from. the games to me is all about transition from attack to defence and how thats executed - can you get players in the right spots at the right time sort of thing.

As OWTS and others pointed out - Lyon does have the fundamentals spot on and IMO what he is trying to do is improve our sides effeciency in going fwd while ensuring we maintain a tight level of pressure on opposition when we dont have the ball. We started to see this at the end of 07 - no question it relies on a good level of fitness and having the cattle on the park available (which hes also tried to address).

Yes a goal kicking fwd line thats flexible is also my dream but the entire game aint played solely in the fwd half.

[bigcarl]

Yes a goal kicking fwd line thats flexible is also my dream but the entire game aint played solely in the fwd half.

of course it's not and i know that. but i think our forward set-up is one area in which we can and must really improve this year. we can't afford to rely on riewoldt, gehrig and milne alone to kick us winning scores.

if i had to make one structural change to improve our chances in 2008 it would be kosi to a key forward position where we can best use his ability to take pack and contested marks.

what it means is that, automatically, the opposition can't afford to double-team riewoldt ... something that has dogged us for four years and baffled two coaches.

sure geelong had a strong defence in 2007 but they were also the most efficient team in the competition for converting inside 50s to goals and had five guys who kicked more than 30 for the season. we were 14th in that stat and had three 30-plus goal-kickers.

it's not a dig at RL's ability. just somewhere that i think we, as a club, can improve

[Teflon]

Yes a goal kicking fwd line thats flexible is also my dream but the entire game aint played solely in the fwd half.

of course it's not and i know that. but i think our forward set-up is one area in which we can and must really improve this year. we can't afford to rely on riewoldt, gehrig and milne alone to kick us winning scores.

if i had to make one structural change to improve our chances in 2008 it would be kosi to a key forward position where we can best use his ability to take pack and contested marks.

what it means is that, automatically, the opposition can't afford to double-team riewoldt ... something that has dogged us for four years and baffled two coaches.

sure geelong had a strong defence in 2007 but they were also the most efficient team in the competition for converting inside 50s to goals and had five guys who kicked more than 30 for the season. we were 14th in that stat and had three 30-plus goal-kickers.

it's not a dig at RL's ability. just somewhere that i think we, as a club, can improve

I realise all of that - and Im an in huge agreement in Kos to FF (was actually looking forward to seeing him there this year and hope Lyon still gives him a number of runs at FF). However, your post, when read in terms of talking about fundamentals/game plans/strategy is one sided and heavily focussed on fwd set up - thats my point. I say this cause I think Lyon is probably trying to address broader defensive discipline as a priority.

Just on the double teaming of Roo - again could not agree more BUT IMO while its critical we have fwds that can support Roo to make this harder what is perhaps just as important (and been lacking for our side for some years) is hard running goal kicking mids - they also add to scoring flexibility/unpredictability and we havent had multiples of these types for a long tim IMO.

[bigcarl]

your post, when read in terms of talking about fundamentals/game plans/strategy is one sided and heavily focussed on fwd set up.

that's only because i perceive it as one of our major problems and an area in which we can really improve.

the importance of actually converting opportunities to goals should never be underestimated amd scoreboard pressure is the best pressure of all, imo.

while its critical we have fwds that can support Roo to make this harder what is perhaps just as important (and been lacking for our side for some years) is hard running goal kicking mids.

agree.

i'd start by moving grammy and bj or montagna to the wings and dal into the guts.

all are capable of long goals from outside 50 or good delivery forward.

bally is also a good goal-kicker but needs to be closer to goal.

35-45 is about his range because of the OP, imo, and he'll be handy resting in a pocket.

like you i wish we had a judd or a (younger) akermanis, however they don't come along too often.

but keep an eye on dal.

i noticed last year that he started kicking goals when they really counted ... often the sign of a rising champion.

probably the most important thing of all is to move the ball quickly and directly

[Teflon]

Im not sure BJ into the middle first year back from a knee reco is going to give you a lot but even if it did......having him and Gram on wings robs you of run out of defence - and you can not underestimate how important rebound opportunities nor how many of these contribute to the scoreline at the end of a game. Thats the reason why Lyon has slowed us and made us more deliberate in terms of play I believe. At times under Thomas - particularly 05 - we went fwd (or tried to...made it hard with no discernible rucking option out of the centre...) very quicky only to see sides had already clogged our fwd 50 and worked out the best way to beat a rampant saints fwd line was from rebound out of defence (and yes injuries to our key personnel assisted them here). I watched often the ball "bombed in" and then sent back with interest. In 04 we got away with this (and Peckett did also...) because we had the fwd line AND werent being flooded to the levels we got in 05 - more sides took us on in a shoot out which suited the Thomas style down to the ground.

Lyon has a view IMO that while you still move the ball quickly - you do so deliberately in an attempt to improve effectiveness and minimise rebound scoring options (and hit a target). IMO this is why we struggled with his game plan early also (injuries aside) we dont have many dead eye Dal santos by foot in the side (Gram runs like the wind and at the end can still be quite good at turning the footy over...hes no Aussie Jones in this area...) - we need to improve both our fitness and skill level IF we are going to master Lyons plan IMO in 08. We got better at this later in 07 - yes because injuries started to improved BUT also IMO because players started to know "instiinctively" what it was Lyons game plan was on about...as their confidence in this grew so did out speed of ball transfer out of defence into fwd 50.

I think he also believes that coming from defence all the way down the park intense pressure is to be applied - we are ok in this space.....yes we lapse at times but when we are "on" we are very tough to roll.

[bigcarl]

having (BJ/Montagna) and Gram on wings robs you of run out of defence.

can't sam fisher, the clarkes, baker, l. fisher, dempster, etc, handle that? i'd prefer our best kicks for goal within striking distance of goal. they can do more damage there. to me nothing's more important than putting a score on the board.

but i do agree with you that grammy turns it over a bit too often at halfback and that we can't really expect too much run off halfback from bj whilst he is recovering from a knee reconstruction.

Lyon has a view IMO that while you still move the ball quickly - you do so deliberately in an attempt to improve effectiveness and minimise rebound scoring options (and hit a target).

kosi forward gives us the option of kicking long to a contest which, imo, is what we haven't had.

instead of having only the option of hitting (a target) fraser or riewoldt on the chest we can now bring back the forgotten art of the long bomb as well. open the flood gates, as it were.

it's the missing link that will propel us towards a premiership in '08

[Teflon]

Carl Im not sure id be putting our defensive run in the hands of the clarkes (injury prone), Baker (out till Rd 100 anyway suspended and not a noted rebound defender) L Fisher (plodder lets be honest) and Gardiner/Dempster (unknown in our colors). I think yiour underestimating the "quarterback" type scoring abilities a top rebounding defender sets up (think back to the many goals Austin Jones set us up with.....cast your mind back to that legendary boundary line one in the 97 GF.......thats the power of true quarterback running defender who CAN kick superbly and why Sheedy had several cracks at him.....). Yes Sam Fisher is ideal in thsi area - as long as a KP Backman doesnt go down...then he becomes one of them...I think Gilbert has some good years ahed of him in this role....quick, dashing, break a tackle and can kick lengthy........so maybe?

I also agree re Kos as a contested fwd marking option and dont believe weve had one of this ilk since Loewe. Infact, dreary Dodgy's been telling me how woeful Kosi is as a fwd - even though the blokes NEVER been given a decent run to settle in any spot let alone as a fwd (I think dodg dreams up his theories in the bath where his minds clearly on other things....).

[saint66au]

What an interesting and well thought-out debate....shame it had to be spoilt with smartass lines like "dreary dodgy" and "are you this stupid in real life?"

Teflon, your disrespect for certain fellow posters is amazing sometimes.